Beware

[Sanman maui]

I bought TOW 1 online when it first came out. I made a back up DVD and unlicensed it when I sold my computer last year. For some reason the DVD back up game is corrupted. I was informed by Battlefront that there is a 1 year download limitation. I don't think there was when I bought it. Now they want me to pay 50% more to download a game I already have a online license for. I was going to get TOW 2 but will never buy a Battlefront product again

[Moon]

I have already replied to you privately, and will mirror my response here:

I understand that you don't like the fact that you'd have to repurchase the game, but I don't know why you're assuming that you can re-download games for-ever and ever without limit. Try going to a store and asking them for a new CD because you lost yours. And most download services are in fact offering one-time downloads only.

Having said that, since you have bought the game when we were still operating on our old server, you can try the old eLicense download server. I cannot promise that it will work, and in fact I am pretty sure that it won't anymore, but you can give it a try:

http://battlefront.elicense.com/downloads.asp

PS. There has always been a time limit for the download in place, from day one that we have started offering downloads.

[mort]

hmm that's ugly. Thanks for pointing it out sanman, I didn't know that, the warnings aren't exactly in your face.

Best backup Shockforce then!

[General_solomon]

I always pay extra for a cd and then i store all my cd's in a metal box in case of a fire.

[Redwolf]

I always pay extra for a cd and then i store all my cd's in a metal box in case of a fire.

That won't do any good against fire. The CDs desintegrate under any kind of heat.

"Real" CDs, CDs that you didn't burn yourself, are better but not really anywhere close to really good.

The best thing to do is make a copy of everything and store it in a drawer at work. Or offsite back on the internet, but that might be a little excessive for random games.

[Chirac75]

That you have to purchase a new CD or game because yours is corrupted or has a scratch is fine by me and logic. But if you have to buy it simply because you tried to install it again a year after buying it...that'd be some kind of line...a line in the sand Donny...and you do not cross...DO NOT...oh and Donny, they prefer to be called Asian-American...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118715/quotes

[GoodGuy]

Try going to a store and asking them for a new CD because you lost yours. And most download services are in fact offering one-time downloads only.

You'd be surprised, because going to a European publisher (note: not to the store) and asking for a new CD (to replace your damaged/unreadable CD) actually works here. This might not work in Russia or in the US, but there are SOME consumer protection rules here in Europe.

In the 90s, and in early 2000s, it was common procedure to put a piece of paper into the game box / jewel case, which said that customers could obtain a new CD (in case it got damaged or if it became unreadable). Some publishers charged a fee for shipping and handling, some just charged a processing fee. Often, customers had to either scan parts of the manual, the box, or the jewel case, or publishers insisted on sending in let's say the cover of the box or manual, as proof for legal ownership. As far as I know, some publishers still do this.

With the new copy protection schemes on CDs and DVDs nowadays, quite some customers are not able to create backup copies of their legally obtained original CDs anymore, so the publishers' offer to give out replacements is even more important these days.

Also, in quite some European countries, it's illegal to USE burning software like Nero, BlindRead etc., as these are tools which help to ship around the copy protection on the CD, so, according to national German law, for example, customers are not allowed to use burning software on protected CDs, as this would violate copyright laws, and shops did not dare to sell them for quite a while, although the possession of burning software is legal.

That said, a customer in Germany can, theoretically, sue a publisher in Germany in case they don't want to replace a damaged CD equipped with a copy-protection scheme.

The same goes for games obtained as digital download. Charging twice for a product would be illegal here. No matter whether with 100% or 50% of the original price.You're lucky that you're not based in Germany. Giving out a CD to this poor bub would be the common procedure with major publishers.

The staff at Matrix Games check the customer database, and arrange an additional download with their partner-platform DigitalRiver, in these cases, even if a customer forgot to check the "insurance" thing, which extends the download period to several years. THAT is customer support.

I thought about getting TOW2 a few weeks after release - to see if the bugs would allow for enjoyable gaming, but your answer totally changed my mind. No thank you.

[helm123]

This is one of the reasons I'm such a big fan of steam

[Moon]

You'd be surprised, because going to a European publisher (note: not to the store) and asking for a new CD (to replace your damaged/unreadable CD) actually works here. This might not work in Russia or in the US, but there are SOME consumer protection rules here in Europe.

In case you don't know, I am living in Europe myself; not that it matters, because we replace damaged/unreadable CDs as well. I don't know what your point is therefore.

In the 90s, and in early 2000s, it was common procedure to put a piece of paper into the game box / jewel case, which said that customers could obtain a new CD (in case it got damaged or if it became unreadable). Some publishers charged a fee for shipping and handling, some just charged a processing fee. Often, customers had to either scan parts of the manual, the box, or the jewel case, or publishers insisted on sending in let's say the cover of the box or manual, as proof for legal ownership. As far as I know, some publishers still do this.

Yeah, we do for example.

With the new copy protection schemes on CDs and DVDs nowadays, quite some customers are not able to create backup copies of their legally obtained original CDs anymore, so the publishers' offer to give out replacements is even more important these days.

Right. But what does this have to do with us? Not only are we talking about re-downloading after 2 years after the original purchase here, we at Battlefront do not have any copy restrictions of CDs or DVDs in place. You can copy and burn as much as you like/want.

Also, in quite some European countries, it's illegal to USE burning software like Nero, BlindRead etc., as these are tools which help to ship around the copy protection on the CD, so, according to national German law, for example, customers are not allowed to use burning software on protected CDs, as this would violate copyright laws, and shops did not dare to sell them for quite a while, although the possession of burning software is legal.

That said, a customer in Germany can, theoretically, sue a publisher in Germany in case they don't want to replace a damaged CD equipped with a copy-protection scheme.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Our CDs are not copy protected.

The same goes for games obtained as digital download. Charging twice for a product would be illegal here. No matter whether with 100% or 50% of the original price.You're lucky that you're not based in Germany. Giving out a CD to this poor bub would be the common procedure with major publishers.

You are completely incorrect. The customer purchases a game, which is delivered as download. It would be completely fine to allow customers to only download one time (and many companies do this!), no matter if we're based in the US, Germany, or anywhere else. As long as the purchased product is delivered we have fulfilled our side of the sale contract, and we have no further obligations.

We at Battlefront go above and beyond the call of duty however, and not only do we allow people to download more than once and for a whole year, we also do make exceptions to the rules, and frequently. No customer whose download expired a few weeks will have to repurchase anything. But again, this has nothing to do with the case on hand.

The bottom line is this:

if you purchase a download, you cannot simply assume that you can re-download for ever and ever. It's up to you to store your downloaded files safely. This isn't our responsibility.

We do, out of courtesy to our customers and because of good customer service, allow people to download AT NO ADDITIONAL COST for a full year, up to 10 times, which is more than most other companies allow.

We do offer "download&mail" or "mail only" options for customers who don't want to bother with burning copies of downloaded files. We also replace broken or defective CDs if you buy a "mail" option. We also allow people to re-download a game if their download period has expired by a few weeks, and we make many exceptions to the rules based on the situation.

And lastly, we do offer a huge 50% rebate for repurchasing, even if we didn't have to do it.

Other companies may do things differently (you forgot to mention that DR charges $10 or $20 for that "download insurance" for example) and that's fine. And if you like their system better, that's fine, too. But ours works the way it does (and always has) and it's one of the more flexible and customer friendly out there, by far.

Steam is essentially an online gaming platform and they are forcing you to be online to play, so how weird would that be if they charged you for downloading, heh...!

[GoodGuy]

In case you don't know, I am living in Europe myself...

Where, if you don't mind me asking?

But what does this have to do with us? ....we at Battlefront do not have any copy restrictions of CDs or DVDs in place. You can copy and burn as much as you like/want.

I was just pointing out that customers in Europe can actually force a publisher to give out replacements (for copy-protected CDs), which was a reply to your incorrect statement "Try going to a store...". But even going to a store may work here, I guess noone has tried that via test case/law suit, yet. Also, quite some major publishers still replace CDs that aren't copy-protected.

You are completely incorrect. The customer purchases a game, which is delivered as download. It would be completely fine to allow customers to only download one time (and many companies do this!).

The customer gets a receipt, and receives a serial number in many cases. That is sufficient proof that he already purchased the game. Companies just granting a one-time download may have long-drawn-out EULAs referring to customer rights or rather restricting their rights, but especially these parts of the EULAs (even Microsoft's ones ), covering purchase/re-purchase, often turn out to be invalid here or are subjects to legal disputes.

if you purchase a download, you cannot simply assume that you can re-download for ever and ever. It's up to you to store your downloaded files safely. This isn't our responsibility.

Maybe not according to the content of your terms and conditions-sheet (which may be invalid in some countries), but you know what? There is good/fair customer service and bad customer service, and customers will memorize the quality level of a given service.

We do, out of courtesy to our customers and because of good customer service, allow people to download AT NO ADDITIONAL COST for a full year, up to 10 times

That's interesting, as this is really more than some publishers use to offer, so that's your only valid point here. Still, charging ppl who have to replace a lost file after let's say 1.5 or 2 years is rather greedy.

Other companies may do things differently (you forgot to mention that DR charges $10 or $20 for that "download insurance" for example)

That's incorrect. The extended download service at DR/Matrix costs $3.99 and expands the dowload period to 2 years. And, like I said, even this time frame is sometimes being expanded when customers ask for help with lost files/software.

[Moon]

Where, if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind but it's irrelevant since I'm in the process of moving to the US right now

I was just pointing out that customers in Europe can actually force a publisher to give out replacements (for copy-protected CDs), which was a reply to your incorrect statement "Try going to a store...". But even going to a store may work here, I guess noone has tried that via test case/law suit, yet. Also, quite some major publishers still replace CDs that aren't copy-protected.

I very much doubt if any store is going to give you a replacement CD if you go to the store after 2 years, even if you have a receipt, and ask them to give you a new CD for free because you lost yours.

Which is the case we're facing here. None of your other examples is relevant to what I said.

The customer gets a receipt, and receives a serial number in many cases. That is sufficient proof that he already purchased the game. Companies just granting a one-time download may have long-drawn-out EULAs referring to customer rights or rather restricting their rights, but especially these parts of the EULAs (even Microsoft's ones ), covering purchase/re-purchase, often turn out to be invalid here or are subjects to legal disputes.

You write halfway intelligent posts and yet I am surprised why you keep replying to points which I have not made and which have nothing to do with the case on hand. We're not restricting anyone's rights or offering one-time downloads so who cares about EULAs or legal disputes to that effect?

Maybe not according to the content of your terms and conditions-sheet (which may be invalid in some countries), but you know what? There is good/fair customer service and bad customer service, and customers will memorize the quality level of a given service.

Precisely. And most people who have interfaced with our support walk away extremely happily. I just had a case yesterday (easter sunday no less) where a customer received a defective CD. We're not only replacing it free of charge, the customer has also received a free download (of course). Have you ever had to do with our customer service or are you making your points simply assuming things?

There are, however, limits to customer-friendliness. The guy who started this thread has hit one. There has to be one, otherwise we may as well start offering unlimited downloads. After increasing prices for everyone else of course. And doesn't that seem kind unfair to ALL customers if those who simply make a backup copy on CD or USB stick etc. now have to pay more for all the others who unreasonably except to be able to download forever?

That's interesting, as this is really more than some publishers use to offer, so that's your only valid point here. Still, charging ppl who have to replace a lost file after let's say 1.5 or 2 years is rather greedy.

So when would it be un-greedy in your view? After 3 years? 5? 10?

No need to reply. It's a rhetorical question. Truth is that there is no greed here at all. We're covering our costs for a full 365 / 10 time download period.

That's incorrect. The extended download service at DR/Matrix costs $3.99 and expands the dowload period to 2 years. And, like I said, even this time frame is sometimes being expanded when customers ask for help with lost files/software.

And what makes you think we don't? In fact, I stated the contrary in my post above.

My first (and last) time I bought something from DR (Norton; the download didn't work so they had to refund my purchase) allowed me one download withinin a certain period, and extra cost (IIRC $10 or so) to "extend" the download, plus another $15 or so for a hardcopy on CD.

What does this have to do with anything discussed here? Nothing. But I'm just trying to stay with the flow

[crazyman56]

Thanks for pointing that out. I just reinstalled ToW cause i got a new HD but i used the disk. (Had to fish around for the CD key in my Email archives as it wasnt in the case...). I will back it up as its an old classic.

Never knew about it. I will check my emails. cause if it don't say that that's illegal.

[crazyman56]

The email when i bought it does not say that it cant be downloaded after a year. At least you could of said...

[GoodGuy]

I very much doubt if any store is going to give you a replacement CD if you go to the store after 2 years, even if you have a receipt, and ask them to give you a new CD for free because you lost yours.

I was referring to a damaged CD and the possibilities for replacement through the publisher.

None of your other examples is relevant to what I said.......You write halfway intelligent posts and yet I am surprised why you keep replying to points which I have not made...

No offense, but you seem to have an extremely short memory. You assume things and you insinuate competing companies would charge exorbitant prices for download extension services (Matrix/DR), although you know nothing about their policies and their real pricing. You confront this customer with a statement like "try going to a shop..", and that's where I replied, trying to let you know that a publisher (instead of a shop) would very well replace a CD (damaged or maybe even lost) and that customer protection laws are stronger than you think (i.e. in Germany).

Have you ever had to do with our customer service or are you making your points simply assuming things?

Unlike you, I don't have to assume things, I just have to browse this forum, in order to spot statements from disappointed customers. They may not be here in masses, but they're there. Oh look, one is right above my post.

...otherwise we may as well start offering unlimited downloads. After increasing prices for everyone else of course. [].... who unreasonably except to be able to download forever?

Not forever, but I don't see why it can't be offered for a few years. I doubt that every customer would keep downloading files over and over, for years, so we're really talking about a small amount of traffic.

And with today's hosting services, traffic is extremely cheap, so it would be a customer-friendly policy, in fact. Games in this niche-market are already more expensive than games from major publishers (up to $20), so I don't see why the extension of the download period (and the amount of "granted" downloads), using a download server that's running 24/7 ANYWAYS, would make a Battlefront game more expensive.

BTW, according to German laws (and I wouldn't be surprised if according to EU laws as well), sellers are obliged to state explicitly if there are any download restrictions (ie. limited amounts or limited time) on the purchase screen (not just in the TOS {fine prints}/EULA}. Like I said, BF is lucky....

We're covering our costs for a full 365 / 10 time download period.

Well, I'd say selling games for $45 - $60 should cover the costs for unlimited downloads within let's say 2-3 years, accounting may be doing something wrong, otherwise, especially if it comes to selling DLs only, since you save printing/press/storage costs (no manual/no CD).

DR (Norton; the download didn't work so they had to refund my purchase) allowed me one download withinin a certain period, and extra cost (IIRC $10 or so) to "extend" the download...[]

Usually DR charges $3.99 for download extension with Matrix Games, and DR has a re-download menu, even without "insurance". Pick a random game, and check it out. Matrix doesn't sell Norton.... so I don't know why you keep insisting on imaginary prices, when it comes to forum users pointing out habits of BF's competition.

What does this have to do with anything discussed here? [] ..... I'm just trying to stay with the flow

Keep trying . Well you pulled out some assumptions, and that's where I jumped in to correct you.

[Moon]

Keep trying .

Nope, not interested, "GoodGuy".

[Cougar_DK]

...

Steam is essentially an online gaming platform and they are forcing you to be online to play, so how weird would that be if they charged you for downloading, heh...!

Not trying to start a fight or hijack this thread, but Steam doesn't require that you are online to play the games you have bought after downloading.... I now a lot of people who thinks its like this but it aren't...

Take a look at this: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

[Wardo]

I didn't knew of this restriction, and though I'm not blaming Battlefront for my failure to read the fine little lines I believe it should be made clearer and more obvious that after one year you're out, seeing from this thread that I was not the only person unaware of the restriction.

I did not knew why Battlefront offered me to buy Shock Force both as a download and as a box, I chose the box aswell for novelty, for a proper sense of ownership. Now I understand it is a genuine advantage.

By no means do I intend to say that Battlefront is behind the competition, I never knew that Matrix games also expired their downloads, all you publishers/devs have been quite discreet about it.

I do not criticize your business model, as it's obviously working and providing me with good games, nor do I seek to smash you with the hammer of government regulation, the government never gave me any good games, it actually only makes them more expensive by taxing every single step in the chain of production and of my own use. But I do suggest Battlefront take a step ahead of the competition and make this information clear before the buying process is finished. Add it where we can clearly read, not in clause 7853 in the bottom of the contract: Warning: your download will expire within an year. This is the standard procedure in the market, and our competition does the same. We imperatively suggest that you back-up the installation file in a DVD or another drive so that you can install again whenever you need.

That said, I indeed compliment Battlefront's customer service, especially the proactive guy who does the gift wrapping for international orders; ask him, he'll know what I mean, and send him my thanks.

[Moon]

Thanks, Wardo, for the constructive post.

We do try to make it clear that downloads expire, in many ways. For example, when you get your download confirmation email, it says this right below the link:

The maximum number of downloads for each file is: 10

You can download until 365 days after the first download

Similar clauses are placed in the Sales Terms and Policy you need to click to agree to before purchase, in your customer account, and in the Knowledgebase at the Helpdesk.

I am sure we can make it even clearer (e.g. for the just released TOW2 it states the download limits on the product page itself for the Download delivery method) and we'll try. There is no intention to hide this.

However, please consider two points:

- people are not reading even the most obvious instructions. Period. There is nothing we can do to make sure that all the important little points (and the download is just one of them) registers. Even a popup gets clicked away and we have people in support claiming that they have never been told about this or that. Trust me, I know.

- the whole idea of "I want to be able to redownload as much as I want" is completely unreasonable and I have no clue how someone can simply assume that's the case. You are purchasing a game, the game is delivered to you, and the sales contract is fulfilled. The same applies to mail orders etc. Nowhere does it say that you are purchasing some kind of online storage or infinite download service or anything like that. We're not offering this type of service (yet). There are, in fact, not many companies that do, so I don't understand how or why the fact that you cannot re-download a game you bought once for ever and ever. As such, the fact that customers may assume that they can download whenever they want as often they want has not necessarily been very clear to us when we started offering downloads. Our shop has been constantly refined over the last few years and many of the things we're talking about here in fact have been changed already and are originating from our old store. We will keep refining it in the future as well. Considering that today is a pretty big release day with a LOT of people downloading TOW2 at this very moment and you don't see me flailing my arms and putting out fires left and right does mean that we must be making progress

[Lethaface]

Just wanting to comment here, I must say that Battlefront does have an outstanding customer service according to my experience. I vaguely remember I had a problem with the original ToW download and was promptly helped, some years ago. I do know a friend of me who has a tic about reinstalling his pc every week and must have lost his license numerous times, but he still can play cmsf.

Only the fact that someone from BF is taking the time and patience to answer questions integral on this forum is quite something. They care about their customers.

Now I agree there are better systems, I like steam myself and Impulse also offers unlimited downloads forever, but I guess the costs for such a system are too high for BF. It would be better but, yeah, we can't have everything in this world. And indeed it might be true that by EU law BF is even obliged to offer a redownload at processing costs. There are a lot of rules here (and the rules cost us a lot of money too!, 600 euro per month the tax grabs from me, apart from VAT), but I guess there is no point discussing the law on this forum. Ask a lawyer.

Also I dont think it is smart discussing with the publisher(&dev) about these rules and laws, while you could have asked nicely for a solution. If I know BF they would probably offered a solution for your problem.

[himmelstoss]

I have lost my keys of several games multitudes of times, and I always got help right away by BF-support every time.

Support is good here!

himmel

[BillyR]

I'm sick of limited downloads and unlicensing. I won't buy digital download anymore.

If this is in the shops in a month, I might buy it...but it's a BIG might.

This is not "personal" against Battlefront, I'm just sick to the core of limited downloads, limited installations and licensing/unlicensing. I'm too old to jump through hoops.

[Ricochet67]

BillyR, why wait? You can purchase a physical copy of ToW2 for $45 plus postage right now.

This thread has served a useful purpose - it's prompted me to backup my Battlefront and Matrix games.

[Moon]

Ricochet67 is right, BillyR. We are still offering good old fashioned mail order delivery for a reason, and many people are using it (good thing, too, because making and printing all those glossy manuals is expensive).

There are no limited installations. You can install our games as often as want on as many PCs as you want and you can copy them without restrictions. The ONLY limit is that you cannot have more than two copies active (licensed) at the same time. It's the ONLY limit we enforce with eLicense, and unlicensing/relicensing is a one-click process when you uninstall the game (or even if you aren't), so I don't see what it has to do with age. It's old-fart-friendly

[BillyR]

$45 is still £30!

[crazyman56]

BillyR dont forget the postage of: $20 = £14 so £30 + £14 = £44 Total Which is more expensive than any mail game in the UK market....

WHat i find funny is that it is cheaper postage to buy from South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands

.... (Here)