More Pie in the sky questions about CM2:Normandy

[Sergei]

Steve,

I'm under the impression that flavor objects offer no cover, so, for me, a battle in a cemetary where the gravemarkers/crypts offer no cover seems rather pointless.

My understanding is that they do offer cover, but no concealment.

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei is correct. Flavor Objects provide cover specific to the type of object. Oil drums provide practically nothing, boulders provide pretty good, etc.

For concealment to work the object needs to be large enough that someone can get behind it without being noticed and keep all of his body and gear completely away from the prying eyes of the enemy. Flavor Objects are too small for that. Therefore, normal spotting conditions determine if you're spotted or not.

Steve

[silverstars]

Another question that was posted earlier but unanswered: What will water be like? Will it be one Tile unaccessible by all or will there be a shallow water tile fordable by infantry and or certain vehicles? Will we little pixeltruppen holding their rifles above their heads wading through a flooded field or will just plain ole' water and bridges be enough of a pain in the butt to deal with?

[Battlefront.com]

Like CMx1, there will be specific spots which can be crossed by infantry and/or vehicles. I'm trying to get in some shallow streams that would be a different type of "water" altogether. Basically slows things down but it's too shallow to prevent fording. Plus, they would look nice

Steve

[sfhand]

Sergei is correct. Flavor Objects provide cover specific to the type of object. Oil drums provide practically nothing, boulders provide pretty good, etc.

For concealment to work the object needs to be large enough that someone can get behind it without being noticed and keep all of his body and gear completely away from the prying eyes of the enemy. Flavor Objects are too small for that. Therefore, normal spotting conditions determine if you're spotted or not.

Steve

There is nothing better than being happily mistaken...

Thanks!

[MarkEzra]

There is nothing better than being happily mistaken...

Thanks!

Sure there is: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation

of their women! ... "Conan the Barbarian"

[Sequoia]

Sure there is: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation

of their women! ... "Conan the Barbarian"

The way I learned the quote is something our Drill Sergeant made us memorize in Basic.

“The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you. To see his cities reduced to ashes. To see his loved ones shrouded in tears. And to gather to your bosom his wives and daughters"

Genghis Khan 1226

[sfhand]

Sure there is: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation

of their women! ... "Conan the Barbarian"

I'll have my wife drop you an email... after living with me I'm sure the lamentations you get won't quite be what you had in mind

but for me, having my misunderstandings about the game cleared up leads to greater happiness, in part because it will help me with the bit you mention, but mostly because I don't like laboring under the influence of ignorance.

[MarkEzra]

...laboring under the influence of ignorance.

I think I've found a new career! How much does that pay?

[silverstars]

OK, here's another one(I really need to stop thinking about his game at work).

With CMSF we have random models of equipment attached to tanks, infantry carriers, and what have you, much to the joy of the local peasantry. How much of this will carry over in CM:Normandy, and will it have more of a game effect besides window dressing?

For example, American tanks (especially Shermans) applied sandbags,Wood planks, and Applique armor to the front and sides of their tanks for more protection. Would this be an example of random window dressing or would these be shown as a completely different tank, like the difference between an M1A1 and an M1A1 Tusk? And if treated as a completely different tank, will Culin Hedgerow cutters be treated in the same fashion?

Also, German tanks were quite keen on using tree limbs and netting to camouflage their tanks. Would this be included, and if so would they have an effect on spotting (at least towards enemy air units)?

Thanks in advance for any answers, and might I also say that as I come up with all these highly nuanced questions for this game, I become amazed that Steve hasn't told everyone to go to hell for giving him more crap to program in.

[Dietrich]

Good points, silverstars.

However, I don't think using the "M1A1 vis-a-vis M1A1/2 TUSK" comparison isn't quite what you had in mind. Whereas any two Shermans could be the exact same model but be festooned quite differently with sandbags, wood planks, and applique armor in various combinations, the tanks themselves are exactly the same -- take away the items they're festooned with, and there would be no appreciable difference. The M1A1/2 TUSK, on the other hand, when compared with the "standard" M1A1, has numerous different features -- ERA tiles on the hull sides, .50-cal. MG mounted coaxially above the cannon barrel, thermal sight for the loader, shield for the loader's pintle MG, etc. Thus it's not that the M1A1 TUSK is just an M1A1 with different "window dressing"; it's a different model. Also, the components of the M1A1 TUSK which distinguish it from the standard M1A1 are not random, unlike the sundry equipment external stowage on vehicles.

That said, I like your idea(s) about random external items on vehicles, especially when it comes to camouflage.

[silverstars]

well, let me put it this way. In the Quick Battle setup when we can cherry pick units, will it have "M4A1 Sherman", and then the next selection "M4A3 Sherman w/ Applique Armor"; or will it just have "M4A1 Sherman" and if you were lucky applique armor will randomly show up on the tank in game with out our input? That was the point I was aiming at.

[Scipio]

Like CMx1, there will be specific spots which can be crossed by infantry and/or vehicles. I'm trying to get in some shallow streams that would be a different type of "water" altogether. Basically slows things down but it's too shallow to prevent fording. Plus, they would look nice

Steve

Shallow streams are a must have!!!!

[Michael Emrys]

IIRC, the problem with streams in Normandy and elsewhere in northwest Europe was not the depth of the water so much as steep and/or muddy banks. Men on foot could cross readily enough in most cases, but enabling vehicular crossing usually required preparation that would lay outside the scope of a CM game time span.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

The banks are easily simulated with elevations since that's exactly what the issue is in real life I've had some fun going up/down 1-3m high banks on rivers and streams before without the added joy of 90 pounds of gear on. It is indeed tough to do. This should work fine in CM because a steep change of 2-3 elevations does indeed make infantry going quite slow.

BTW, this is one of the nice side benefits of the smaller terrain grid. We can have fairly small squiggles of water with steep banks. In CMx1 the minimum was about 18m wide, which is hardly a quaint little stream

Steve

[Mord]

Streams are one of those things I always wanted in the old CMX1...it'll be nice to to be able to place nuances of water as opposed to one huge tile...it'll really add a nice touch to the terrain.

One other thing I'd like to see added would be a way to place some kind of leaf litter beneath trees...maybe a layer on top of the grass layer? Or a tile of just leaves and dead branches?...A single tree looks fine standing in clean grass but when it comes to heavily wooded terrain manicured grass under every tree just looks strange. It fits a deserty type environment but just won't look right for a temperate setting like Europe.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

There's no question that you'll be able to make streams that are no wider than a single Action Spot (which would mean about 6m wide of water). What I'm not sure we'll get is something which is even smaller, for example 3m, and much shallower. It's on the list at least

Yes, forrest floors are something we're interested in as well.

Steve

[JonS]

There's no question that you'll be able to make streams that are no wider than a single Action Spot (which would mean about 6m wide of water).

Erm ... could you clarify that Steve. The double negative in there is a bit confusing.

Will we be able to make wide streams/rivers by putting stream tiles side-by-side, somewhat analogous to the way CMSF highway tiles can be placed side by side to create massive parking lots (without little bits of non-road - or non-water - in between)?

[Battlefront.com]

Heh... you'll be able to make streams that are contained within a single Action Spot, which translates to roughly 6m wide vs. CMx1's 18m. This will be it's own terrain type, similar to roads. If possible there will be two variants of this; 6m and 3m of water. For larger waterways you'll need to piece together both banks, very much like putting together highways (like you suggest).

Steve

[silverstars]

With CMSF we have random models of equipment attached to tanks, infantry carriers, and what have you, much to the joy of the local peasantry. How much of this will carry over in CM:Normandy, and will it have more of a game effect besides window dressing?

For example, American tanks (especially Shermans) applied sandbags,Wood planks, and Applique armor to the front and sides of their tanks for more protection. Would this be an example of random window dressing or would these be shown as a completely different tank, like the difference between an M1A1 and an M1A1 Tusk? And if treated as a completely different tank, will Culin Hedgerow cutters be treated in the same fashion?

Also, German tanks were quite keen on using tree limbs and netting to camouflage their tanks. Would this be included, and if so would they have an effect on spotting (at least towards enemy air units)?

Any info on this Steve, or is it still up in the air, or not on the table at all?

Without this information, I could possibly die.

Really!

[Kwazydog]

Any info on this Steve, or is it still up in the air, or not on the table at all?

Without this information, I could possibly die.

Really!

Hehe.

Silverstars if all goes well there will certainly be a lot of random stuff on tanks including stuff like sand bags and maybe even foliage, providing we can get something that looks okay. These are low priority, but hopefully time will allow us to add this as well as stuff like banged up skirt armour, mud guards, etc.

With regards to this stuff effecting armour penetration, that is a little more complicated. As I recall there was a pretty huge discussion about this back in the CMBO days and the result of that was that this sort of improvised armour provided next to no addition armour protection, and may have even aided in penetration under certain circumstances. I don’t recall the details of this though, but a search through the old forums should hopefully provide you with further information!

Dan

[Earl Grey]

Silverstars if all goes well there will certainly be a lot of random stuff on tanks including stuff like sand bags and maybe even foliage, providing we can get something that looks okay. These are low priority, but hopefully time will allow us to add this as well as stuff like banged up skirt armour, mud guards, etc.

I was afraid something would say this... And what's with those people liking their vehicles clean (like me)? Missing skirts or banged up mud guards are okay - though only if you do it the correct way, there are certain limitations to how skirts can go missing and how (and the grogs will surely rip your heads off if not done correctly! ) but judging from photographic evidence, at least Panthers and Tigers didn't have too much stuff attached to them (if any) and those we have photographic evidence of rather are the exception than the rule.

[Battlefront.com]

Not to worry... the junk stuck onto vehicles, semi-randomly, is determined by the specific model. Otherwise you'd have PzIV skirt armor showing up on a US Jeep (that would be fun!). So we can scale things down for some vehicles, increase for others. It's just a matter of time spent coding the models.

Steve

[silverstars]

Thanks for the reply Kwazydog. I was touch and go there for a moment.

I looked up some info on the Sherman during '44 and noticed that for the most part sandbags and wooden planking had no effect and was actually a hinderance in many ways(added weight to the front drivetrain and also giving AP shells something to grip into) so having it as window dressing only won't bother me in the slightest( The Shermans have enough problems already!). But what about applique armor? Should this at least give some added area protection? Or do you believe its added benefits so minimal it isn't worth having a seperate M4 modeled with it for each and every type of Sherman?

[Kwazydog]

But what about applique armor? Should this at least give some added area protection? Or do you believe its added benefits so minimal it isn't worth having a seperate M4 modeled with it for each and every type of Sherman?

Oh proper applique armor on the M4s will definately be modelled as a seperate vehicle variant. This armor was factory or field installed over vital areas and was around 2" in thickness, so it should certainly make a different in game

Dan