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silverstars

More Pie in the sky questions about CM2:Normandy

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A few questions:

Since one of the main development strategies of CM2 was the "Depth not Breadth", will this mean that Captured french tanks will be available to the Germans? I realize they were not available in huge numbers, but from what I recall they were the most likely to be seen in this specific area/time period(aside from the Fall of France, of course).

While all the previous modules for CMSF have revolved around nationality, will this be the same Idea for CM:N? To be more specific, will Paratroopers warrant a different module or will they part of the original release?

For CMSF, each module(so far) has included one module. with a situation where the adversaries are on more equal footing, will you continue the same concept or will you have a German/Allied member campaigns for each release? If so, will the campaigns be related; i.e. two opposing regiments battling it out and you pick who you start off with. Also, since the transition from theoretical war(just make up the scenarios/maps) to historical war(needing historical units/maps to accurately model battles) increase the workload, or no appreciable difference?

yeah, I have a lot of free time recently.

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A few questions:

Since one of the main development strategies of CM2 was the "Depth not Breadth", will this mean that Captured french tanks will be available to the Germans? I realize they were not available in huge numbers, but from what I recall they were the most likely to be seen in this specific area/time period(aside from the Fall of France, of course).

While all the previous modules for CMSF have revolved around nationality, will this be the same Idea for CM:N? To be more specific, will Paratroopers warrant a different module or will they part of the original release?

For CMSF, each module(so far) has included one module. with a situation where the adversaries are on more equal footing, will you continue the same concept or will you have a German/Allied member campaigns for each release? If so, will the campaigns be related; i.e. two opposing regiments battling it out and you pick who you start off with. Also, since the transition from theoretical war(just make up the scenarios/maps) to historical war(needing historical units/maps to accurately model battles) increase the workload, or no appreciable difference?

yeah, I have a lot of free time recently.

I think I recall Steve mentioning in another post that there wont be as many rare units as CMBB. Of course the extra modules will give us more than the original. Maybe they would consider going beyond a third or fourth module that would include some of the more rare treats, that way they can bilk us out of some more paper.

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I am pretty sure the way to ensure French tanks in German service (or other items of choice) in the Normandy title is for that request to be written on a note sent along with the rare camouflage pattern uniform that Steve hasn't got yet. This method is not known to have ever failed.

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Also remember guys the way you can make scenarios in CMx2, there is an option for Blue vs Blue and Red vs Red that can be switched back to normal Blue vs Red which I imagine will carry over to WWII. So that means far more tanks can be switched out if you are feeling frisky. Will work great for the eastern front module for say captured T-34's :). This will also work great incase invading forces need fortifications. Kinda neat to think such a little addition can do wonders for such obscure things. :)

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The Module concept allows us to entertain all kinds of things that we wouldn't be doing otherwise. Will there be extremely rare vehicles in CM: Normandy's initial release? No. Will there be a Module which has such vehicles in it released at a later date? Chances are yes, at least to some degree.

We will continue the CM:SF model in terms of the campaigns. One campaign per release from the perspective of the attacker. In the case of the Normandy setting, this means Campaigns from the Allied perspective with a single unit at the center. Since end users can make their own Campaigns we have no doubts that German campaigns will come out. Mortain, for example, might make an interesting topic even though the Germans were ground into the dirt.

There's no difference in the workload between a fictional and historical setting as far as the game goes. TO&E, weapons, vehicles, and technologies are actually going to be easier to deal with because we already have them documented *and* none of them are in flux like the modern stuff is. Scenario creation might actually be easier too since history books give designers a lot of stuff to work with.

Steve

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The biggest drag is simulating a completely different environment :D Not only in terms of climate, but also in terms of weaponry. No single thing is a big time suck, but the couple of days for this and that adds up. For example, we don't have AT Guns in CM:SF, but obviously they are required for Normandy. So Charles had to spend a couple of days coding them to work correctly with everything else. Not a huge amount of time considering, but that's just one thing.

If a Module were to contain NOTHING but a few vehicles and textures (i.e. no scenarios, no new TO&E, no new features at all) then we could crank out a Module very quickly. But Modules do contain a ton of other stuff which adds up because often the time is consecutive (A needs to be done before B can be started, etc.). Plus, we can't help ourselves... we keep adding new stuff into the game itself :D

Steve

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We will continue the CM:SF model in terms of the campaigns. One campaign per release from the perspective of the attacker. In the case of the Normandy setting, this means Campaigns from the Allied perspective with a single unit at the center. Since end users can make their own Campaigns we have no doubts that German campaigns will come out. Mortain, for example, might make an interesting topic even though the Germans were ground into the dirt.

Steve

Ah, I see. So I guess the Normandy Game/modules would probably come out something along these lines....

Base Game

U.S. vs. Germany

Types of Divisions included: US Infantry, US Armored, German Infantry, German Panzer, possibly SS Panzer

Campaign: More then likely focused on Op. Cobra, probably either 2nd or 3rd Armored.

1st Module

Paratroopers

Types of Divisions included:US Airborne , Fallschirmjager

Campaign: Easy bet would be 101st vs. 6th Fallschirmjager Reg., battle of Carentan, but could focus on 82nd Airborne actions

2nd Module

British Army

Types of Divisions included:UK Infantry,UK Airbourne, UK Armored Brigade, poss. more SS units not included yet

Campaign: either the Taking of Caen, or Armored actions involved with or following Caen.(I am not as well versed in the Brit side of things, so I may be missing more lucrative ideas)

3rd Module

Allied Minors/Odds and Ends

Types of Divisions included: Canadian Infantry, Canadian Armoured Brigade, Free French Units, Free Pole Units, maybe even French Underground

Campaign: Who knows. Could focus on any of the above(my money is on the Canucks).

This would be my best guess anyway, but it is Steve's Game so he has the last word obviously. Out of all of those the Paratrooper focused one would be the most entertaining in my eyes; my favorite maps are mostly infantry with a smattering of armor to shake things up. I also wouldn't turn my nose up at a surprise, such as 4th Infantry's push to Cherbourg(go Granddad), a French Underground campaign would be highly interesting, maybe use those irregular forces rules from CMSF and use them for partisan warfare would be a unique change of pace from the norm.

Either way, Battlefront has my wallet when it comes to CMN.

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For example, we don't have AT Guns in CM:SF, but obviously they are required for Normandy. So Charles had to spend a couple of days coding them to work correctly with everything else.

So can we have MT-12 anti-tank guns for the Syrians in the NATO module?

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Ah, I see. So I guess the Normandy Game/modules would probably come out something along these lines....

Base Game

U.S. vs. Germany

Types of Divisions included: US Infantry, US Armored, German Infantry, German Panzer, possibly SS Panzer

Campaign: More then likely focused on Op. Cobra, probably either 2nd or 3rd Armored.

I would think "Normandy, June-August 1944" would be the campaign, with US Army for release and British/Canadian for the first module. If you have a US infantry division with attached armor, or an armored division with attached infantry, the other units in the Normandy campaign are relatively minor variations. Different unit structures for sure, but support options and equipment remain largely the same. A 1944 US ranger or airborne battalion is really a minor variation on a regular infantry battalion when viewed from the perspective of the enormous breadth of the Second World War.

The German opposition, however, does present a bigger problem. There were substantial differences in equipment and compisition even when comparing two Heer infantry divisions. I would fully expect most of the exotic captured equipment to be absent (the exception I would hope for would be the widely used captured Russian artillery), as well as some of the more exotic units, like GHQ level specialized battalions or Ost battalions (still have my fingers crossed for those) to be absent in the release. I would also not be surprised if the Waffen SS in general was withheld until the British/Canadian module, despite the 17th SS PzG's actions against US units.

And Steve has already said they are not going to do the beach landing operations, so that eliminates a lot of specialized equipment from the outset.

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The first Module for Normandy will definitely be Commonwealth Forces. We're already pretty far along in making the models for them. As I said in another thread, this is one of the beautiful things about CMx2... we can now do things in parallel.

Unlike CM:SF, there will be significant German stuff added in each Module. That's because the Germans have an ungodly HUGE amount of stuff to simulate. This means that the Commonwealth Module will have quite a bit of new German TO&E and vehicles. The best example of this is the "Royal Tiger" (as the Brits called it) with Porsche turret. Since they were the only force in the world to go up against those beasties, it makes perfect sense to have it go along with the Commonwealth Module. Still, the focus of each Module will be on the Commonwealth forces since that stuff will be brand new while the German stuff will be adding to German forces which already exist.

Steve

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The first Module for Normandy will definitely be Commonwealth Forces. We're already pretty far along in making the models for them. As I said in another thread, this is one of the beautiful things about CMx2... we can now do things in parallel.

Steve

Ah....and here I was trying to space things out a little to give you guys some breathing space...

So wait, does that mean Airborne units will be in the initial release, or will they be in a Module after the Commonwealth one comes out?

And if Airborne units are included in the first release, what is your 2nd (or 3rd) module based around? Since the Free French are organized like US units and the Canadians, Free Poles, and what have you fall under the Commonwealth units, what else is there? A Partisan pack maybe? Or are you thinking with the WWII CMs that one Module will probably suffice?

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silverstars,

Ah....and here I was trying to space things out a little to give you guys some breathing space...

We wish :D Even with all the overlapping development we're still only getting out a fraction of the content we would theoretically like to be doing. So we're using the CMx2 code as a way of doing more than we could do with CMx1 for the same time invested. Having said that, the work we're doing now is about 1/5th the stress level as CMx1 stuff because back then we were fighting with the code so much to get even small gains from it. We can now implement MAJOR improvements in relatively little time and have far fewer knock-on effects that have to be sorted out. That's a huge, though intangible, load off our minds.

CM: Normandy, which actually isn't it's real name, is designed to simulate everything up until the battles along the German border starting in the Fall. That's because terrain, seasons, TO&E, and a lot of equipment changes happened starting around then.

The Modules are designed to be flexible so we're leaving some final details to be hammered out when we get closer to needing decisions made. For now we're going forward with the no-brainer stuff.

Steve

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So module Market Garden with all the airborne stuff, then The Ardennes/Huertgen Forest module to wrap it all up? Maybe a small powers/odd equipment module at the end?

While I am engaging in pointless random speculation, is their a North Africa module even on the radar, you DO have first cut at the terrain done after all? :)

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Also, is there any question of an Italian Module? Either the forces or the actual fighting in Italy? You could do a cannon fodder module with the Italians, Hungarians, and Romanians. The forum, if not the market, cries out for a Finnish-Russian Module for the Eastern Front as well when the time comes

Wow, I just managed to write Steve & Charles a WW2 list thats several years long, and I actually like modern better. You have got to break down and get a larger programming group started. The prices for decent coders in eastern Europe are getting even cheaper with the current economic mess, might be a great time.

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One campaign per release from the perspective of the attacker

Oooh... intriguing. The Bulge battles (module 3 possibly?) would be front half German attack, back half Allied counterattack. What to do... what to do... :)

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Oooh... intriguing. The Bulge battles (module 3 possibly?) would be front half German attack, back half Allied counterattack. What to do... what to do... :)

I may be mistaken, but I don't think the Bulge battles would be included in the Normandy game or any of it's modules. I think Steve said there would be a completely new CM2 game covering the Battle of the Bulge and other battles along the German frontier.

I can't remember the order, is the CM:Battle of the Bulge game next or is the CM:Modern Temperate Setting next after CM:Normandy? I'm still hoping there is an eastern front game in there somewhere :)

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Yeah, the first WW2 "Family" of games only goes up to the change in the seasons as I sated on the previous page. There's all kinds of things which change about the time the Allies got into the woods along the German border. Far too much to do for a Module, therefore the second WW2 Family of games will cover from Fall 1944 until Spring 1945. We plan on 3 Modules for the second Family as well.

Steve

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So module Market Garden with all the airborne stuff, then The Ardennes/Huertgen Forest module to wrap it all up?

Don't forget the Lorraine campaign. Almost simultaneous with Ardennes/Huertgen but on different terrain. And then for the Brits (Canadians actually) the clearing of the Sheldt Estuary and other parts of the Netherlands with yet other kinds of terrain.

While I am engaging in pointless random speculation, is their a North Africa module even on the radar, you DO have first cut at the terrain done after all? :)

Ummm, don't be too sure about that. The terrain in Syria is not precisely the same as on the Libyan Plateau, although I don't think the latter would provide any insuperable difficulties.

Michael

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