Not Another AAR?! Tux Vs Mylgas 2: Double Or Quits

[Vark]

Buttoned does not mean blind and 10 o'clock puts the assaulting pioneers quickly into the arc of the Panther's hull machine gun, given the AI's turning to face any threat reaction and the slow pace of the pioneers. The turret only has to rotate slightly, and the vegulity-thingy s-mine mortar will pin the squad quickly. The 75mm plus coax will then finish off what the other weapons started. How is this a fair test of Russian tank-killing capability?

[DavidFields]

Not surprisingly, I agree with Der Alte Fritz. But I will never win a lottery, because I won't play. And I am very infantry oriented.

But....Courage...

[Der Alte Fritz]

I never found anything worked unless you use 'sneak'. Really for late war Russians you need a team of sniper, TH/pioneer and ATR to kill the TC, confuse the player with multiple hits and then sneak forward through cover or smoke. Never got anywhere with advance or assault. Of course in real life they also used captures fausts, LL bazookas, etc

[Vark]

DAF, I redid Joachim's test veteran sapper v's buttoned Panther. Flat terrain with only a tile of brush to hide the sapper. The differences to the original test were the sappers approached from the Panthers 6 o'clock and they ran at the beast. End result the Panther normally pinned the sappers as they found it hard to predict the Panthers path, even approaching from the rear the Panther spotted them 5 seconds into their approach.

Repeat of test with two veteran tank hunters (one had one RPG). End result Panther killed 80% of the time (ran test 10 times). The RPG tank hunter sprinted rear right the other TH rear left, the RPG team threw their grenade whilst running at a range of 25-30 metres and NEVER missed. The most likely result was an immobilisation and a shock result which allowed them closing to finish off the tank with grenades. Even if the Panther managed to pin the RPG tank hunter team the other team seemed more than able to KO with just grenades, often with a mobility kill first. So I would say that Russian tank hunters are over modelled, try throwing a 1.2kg grenade whilst running, in a perfect arc, at a moving tank so that it strikes as close to 90 degrees as possible! Finally try taking out a buttoned Panther with just hand grenades, I know it simulates close assault but surely the TC does not always forget to lock his hatch, in these circumstances.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Vark

I think you are right. I always found Pioneers had to wait for the tank to come to them being the best policy. As for TH being over modelled, again you are correct but I think it makes up for the Fausts and Zooks they had in reality but do not have in the game. It is the fact that there is nothing in between the poor Molotov Cocktail and the super RPG, but in reality, the Russians used mines, grenade bundles, explosive charges, explosives pulled into the path of tanks (rather like police stingers), etc.

The main point is the rather passive methods the Russians have to use against heavy German tanks as their own tanks are rather out gunned. So heavy artillery, mines, tank hunters and the occasional 57mm ZIS2 are your main weapons. Use your tanks and superior infantry to kill his infantry and make his heavy cats expose themselves is the asymetric tactic to use.

[Vark]

DAF, agree whole heartedly. The mines on a string are represented as daisy chain AT mines but are poor at their job, hopefully CM 2 will present more realistic effects and outcomes of armour close assaults. How are AT grenades (RKG-3 etc) simulated in Shock Force?

[Joachim]

@Vark:

This is an example of the "stationary" exception - scroll down to the last post

http://the-battle-of-lauben-campaign.foren-city.de/topic,463,60,-phase-2-spotreps-all-fighting-commanders-to-report.html

And I did more tests for that one:

http://the-battle-of-lauben-campaign.foren-city.de/topic,815,75,-phase-4-battle-j5.html

The sappers are in the lower right edge, as is a TH team. The original situation saw the Panther 250 up, to the right of the woods, just below the 2 T34s which were far away then. One vet sapper squad in command range of a max bonus HQ near the Panther.... a German inf squad most likely would have done the job.

SOP for my opponent: Running his HTs 50m in front of my inf. Those couldn't even kill HTs....

....except for one lucky hit vs a JPzIV that was done by sappers advancing inside trees.

Compare the AT capability of Soviet inf with their German counterparts... especially late war.

schreck, zook = good

PIAT = standard

RPG = substandard in range, but better performance than PIAT when in range

ATR = forget it

faust = good

German tools early war, satchel charges = standard

Molotov = forget it

The Soviets need specialized THs with RPGs for a job almost any German inf squad can do. Satchel charges are the best toy for Soviet sappers - worse than the tools of most German inf squads. Plain Soviet inf squads have no effective AT weapons.

Gruß

Joachim

[Vark]

Interesting screen shots but I'm at a bit of a loss as to a response. The Russians had poor infantry anti-tank capability, those units who had captured panzerfausts were ok (sadly not modelled in CMBB) but otherwise you had to close to a suicidally close range. My point was that the Russian infantry anti-tank capability, in CMBB, is often over modelled Borg spotting does count heavily against employing proper tank stalking tactics, but the German schrek/faust anti-tank capability was because of a shortage AFV's. The Russians have copious amounts of armour in 44-45 and should use this to destroy tanks, not have to bit flesh against steel.

Question, what were your anti-tank rifles doing when the halftracks were 50 metres away?I've lost countless types of halftrack to the AT rifles at ranges close to 200m, and don't mention the 12.7mm HMG's. I do think the obscuration/damage effects of molotov cocktails are poorly modelled though, given their record, but how far can you throw them?

[Wengart]

Actually, CMSF does not model AT grenades, but generic grenades are possibly over modeled and can usually score a mobilization kill, if your men are lucky enough to live that long.

I would also like to point out, this is with my limited experiences assaulting armor with hand grenades. Which I have done a total of maybe three times, with the most outstanding result being an uncon getting a mobilization kill on an Abrams.

[Tux]

I'm enjoying this little sub-thread. So much so that I'm loathe to cut it short by posting the results of the actual manoeuvre under discussion! Personally, I have always been deeply frustrated by the fact that normal German infantry squads are so devastatingly effective at close-assaulting armour while the Russians are entirely impotent unless blessed with a specialist, late-war TH team who is lucky enough to have drawn an RPG. Even then the TH team has to be managed (and preserved) separately from the Russian infantry, making positioning of each that much more complicated. Added to this, by the time RPG-toting Russians appear, normal German infantry are beginning to sport Panzerfausts and Panzerschreck teams! I am prepared to accept this though, if it is more-or-less historically accurate.

I would be happy to exploit the Soviets' quantitative AFV advantage and keep my infantry well away from German tanks, but I find that this 'advantage' rarely exists in the PBEM games I play. Perhaps I will discuss with future opponents the possibility of limiting Russians to 50% of their points spent on armour, and Germans to 25%? What do we think? I don't really want to start playing PBEM games larger than 1111 pts (10% casualties), so will 278 points be too few for the German player? I suppose it limits them to either one cat or two-three pretty decent lesser vehicles, which isn't too bad...

[Vark]

"Aye, and there's the rub" as the great man once said. The preponderance of German armour coupled with uber-tank killers means that the Russian struggles, if he has picked a realistic force composition for a game. In most engagements the Germans should have next to no AFV's if 44-45, unless you are generous and allow a few Stugs, a heck of alot easier to dispatch with infantry. I'm sad that the campaigns version of CMBB was scrapped because it might have been a shock for the German player to realise just how rare it was to have tanks. The preponderance for playing armoured engagements with German uber cat Fire Brigades or armoured reserve battles is understandable (they are exciting, we have Tigers we want to play with them syndrome) but they paint a completely false picture.

The Miniatures Page (TMP) had just this debate running about the realism of force composition on wargaming tables and the thread was dominated by WWII and tank v's infantry stack ups. The common thread was, we know it's not realistic but people like to see lots of tanks, especially German ones!

What no AT grenades in SF, why? The TOE of US units look pretty thorough why no AT grenades for the Syrians, they had them in 73 and 82.

No, do not allow the ramblings of this sub thread to get in the way of the latest installment of "They have Tigers, don't they"

[Joachim]

Question, what were your anti-tank rifles doing when the halftracks were 50 metres away?I've lost countless types of halftrack to the AT rifles at ranges close to 200m, and don't mention the 12.7mm HMG's. I do think the obscuration/damage effects of molotov cocktails are poorly modelled though, given their record, but how far can you throw them?

The ATRs were more than 200m from the HTs - so few ATRs I had to protect them. ATRs don't kill HTs - sometimes they got crew kills. But the remaining crew member did not bail as they were vet or crack.

DShKs worked better, but limited ammo, rarity and distance to save the few available meant their overall effect was neglible.

M5s with quad .50cals and lots of ammo worked well at 400-600m vs the front of the 251s. Below the MG42 of the 251s worked better vs the thinner armor of the M5s.

Molotovs.... Never came close enough for those. 251s are open topped and spot like inf - even the last remaining man. Dismounted crews spotted well - and 2-man HT crews are as stealthy and hard to hit as 2-man teams. Add borg spotting...

It was a campaign where Soviet inf was scarce initially. I had issued orders to conserve inf so I could not waste them myself. So Molotovs were not used.

And in that battle there where about 30+ HTs vs 2-3 ATRs, 2-3 DShKs and 2 M5s - to little to make much effect. T34s hunting HTs quickly died to German tanks in overwatch - not many attempts on that either.

Most effective where 76mm inf guns at ranges of 400m. Especially when opening up with one 76mm vs HTs and one 57mm taking care of tanks. Of course the guns did not last long once the surprise was gone.

[JasonC]

Russian players go wrong in overusing historical equipment that is weak (realistically or undermodeled) in CM, instead of cherry picking as much as the threat typically does. If they are willing to retaliate in kind, the Russians have plenty of good tank killer options.

Before there are RPGs for tank hunters, don't take tank hunters. Take ampulets. They can kill anything up to 50mm front at 200 yards, which is better than a bazooka really, for their time of the war. Sometimes it takes 2-3 hits, but the stealth at range is good enough you will get them.

Once the Germans have 80mm fronts, you have RPGs for the tank hunters. 2/3 will get them, 45m throw range, rapid throw in less than 10 seconds, do not miss, only occasionally leave the target immobilized instead of killed outright.

Do not take ATRs. Not effective enough, even when the target is sufficiently thin. They just don't have the behind armor effect. Instead take 50 cals, 2 of them rather than 4 ATRs. Yes the ammo is low for an MG, but if you kill a halftrack you don't care. They also suppress guns better than a Maxim will, and they are reasonably stealthy at range.

Do not take 45mm ATGs. Undermodeled ammo early makes them ineffective even against the plain 30mm *sides* of typical early targets, at typical combat ranges. Instead take mountain guns. They don't get many AP but it penetrates 45mm at 30 degrees and 500 yards, more than enough to conquer side angle and kill the targets a 45mm ATG should. They also get huge and effective HE loads. Like, double what a long 76 has, for 2/3rds of the price.

Do not take long 76s for your main AT work, once 80mm front enemy are everywhere. Take 57mm ATGs instead, and just do the job. 2 of those cost about the same as 3 76s and they will fight a lot better. If you also want the HE firepower toss in one mountain gun. If you set up an ATG ambush correctly you deserve a dead enemy tank for your troubles, not a coin toss.

Or (for 1-2 of the set, say) take a 37mm AA gun. It will kill stuff from the side just as the 76mm will, but with vastly higher accuracy and rate of fire. So accurate and so rapid, it can also wreck vehicles it can't penetrate with gun damage and track hits, twice as fast as a 76mm would do so. Its infantry killing ability is also just as high, and it hits enemy guns faster. You get air defense as a bonus.

Instead of fighting the poor man's war at the bottom of the escalation chain, trying to kill full tanks with infantry squads, just pay up for "trump" and send an IL-2 to do the job. Their strafing is at least as overmodeled as squad infantry close assaults are undermodeled. They shred anything less than a Tiger with the guns alone. 6 passes, 2 shots per pass, each able to fully KO a main battle tank - for the cost of 1 Tiger or Panther. The bombs and rockets may kill some infantry as a bonus.

[Tux]

Hopefully my combination of Engineers, IS-2, 57mm ATG and US 75mm ammo for the Shermans should be enough to waste two Tigers in this game, although I think it might be a challenge. Either way there are some interesting ideas there which I haven't tried often before. I won't say which ones in case any future opponents are reading, lol.

Turn 14

The minute kicks off and, almost straight away, my HQ Sherman races to attack Mylgas' Tiger. Unfortunately Mylgas has foreseen my intentions and his Tiger grinds into gear as it attempts to break LOS to the corner of the road from which he has guessed I intend to take a shot. My Sherman is faster and quickly gains a targeting line. The turret is already facing the right direction, the barrel is levelled, but the Tiger splashes into the muddy open ground immediately ahead of TFB and breaks LOS even as my HQ tank's gunner is fingering the trigger. Talk about unlucky - I've been planning this flank assault for three minutes and then I miss the shot by less than a second!

I also notice a second, bizarre order which Mylgas has given his Tiger; he has ordered it to rotate its turret fully to the rear!

I don't know why he has done this, but it would have made my assaulting Engineers that little bit less vulnerable if it weren't for the close infantry support Mylgas has manoeuvred into position. These men keep my satchel-laden greens effectively suppressed for the entire minute. I therefore have one prong of my three-pronged attack left to stab with, and, just as the minute draws to a close, it moves out and gains LOS...

TFA's minute goes slightly better. They are on top of things and have kept moving - Mylgas' flanking platoon has failed to cause significant damage thus far. As the minute finishes a German mortar crew has been panicked into retreat and my 57mm ATG has had its setup position suitably covered by the supporting Sherman's smoke rounds.

[Tux]

My orders for Turn 15 are twofold. First off, I want TFB's Sherman to take a shot at Mylgas' Tiger. The turret on that monster should take at least 30s to rotate 180 degrees and engage my Sherman, so hopefully I'll get at least a shot or two off. I can then hope for a rear turret partial penetration or similar, maybe even resulting in some dead crew members and a bail-out! Either way, after 18 seconds my Sherman is going to start reversing out of LOS, hopefully in order to break it before the Tiger can return fire.

I am also ordering the nearby satchel-carrying half-squad to area fire his satchels at the nearby German infantry. I have always been frustrated by how reluctant Engineers in CMBB are to use their explosive charges in close-quarters fights. In fact, in my experience they never do unless specifically ordered to (and by doing so you greatly lessen the effectiveness of their small-arms fire and targeting routines).

[Tux]

Turn 15

The turn opens and TFB's Sherman goes for the shot. The result is, I suppose, unsurprising. The shot hits thick frontal plate and breaks up. My Sherman has had his chance and begins reversing away; none too soon either, as he breaks LOS a split second before the Tiger fires back at him.

While this is going on, Mylgas' infantry assault the positions held by my green engineers. This should be suicidal. I would love to say they were ruthlessly cut down by my men, but they are, after all, green, and they simply cower and take the hits. They don't even manage to get a satchel out to disrupt Mylgas' men, who have taken full advantage of the small size and poor quality of TFB and removed it as an effective fighting force.

As you can see, Mylgas' men have also been positively identified as Panzergrenadiers. I'm fighting Tigers and Stg 44-armed Grenadiers, lol. Great!

TFA are still comfortable, and are slowly-but-surely occupying their positions opposite Mylgas' men on the flag. They are encouraged by the rumble of an IS-2 moving up behind them in support.

[Tux]

The orders phase for Turn 16 has gone in. TFB's Sherman is going to Area Fire HE shells as close as possible to Mylgas' Grenadiers, but its LOS is limited by the fact that it has to remain hidden from his Tiger. My final green Engineer squad, still with two satchels, is hiding with a 25m ambush arc set. I can only hoe he lobs a charge first and opens fire second - if he fires first he'll be suppressed instantly.

An event I forgot to mention had happened during Turn 15 was that TFB's Sherman did actually come under fire from a Panzerschreck team ~150m away. Three shots missed by a fair margin, so I'm hoping the team is either green or out of ammo or both. Either way I have bigger fish to fry and the moment, so I'll have to leave that particular angle to fate.

Finally, TFA's Sherman is going to move up to help hammer a few heavy hits on Mylgas' flanking platoon. With any luck I'll do more harm to him by hurting them than he will to me by wiping out my clan of half-squads...

[Tux]

Turn 16

Turn 16 has come back and things have stabilised at 'going quite badly'. TFB's Sherman has a movement order which conflicts with the turret's attempt to rotate and engage the nearby infantry with HE, so none of the latter lands until Mylgas' men have mopped up the nearest of my troops and moved on out of the area.

My lone half-squad springs its 'ambush' with a depressingly pathetic burst of bolt-action rifle fire. MP 40s and StG 44s instantly reply and as the minute finishes the half squad are up, routed and running. They'll all die in the opening second or two of Turn 17.

For Turn 17 I have told TFB's Sherman to land smoke in front of the nearest Tiger and begin reversing out of the area entirely. It is now in an entirely untenable position, being within a minute of being crowded out by multiple infantry units and a Tiger on each flank. As it is it is going to take 2-3 minutes to get entirely out of harm's way, so I will have to work hard to stop the Tigers from gaining LOS during that time...

TFA, as always, slog bravely onwards. I think at least two units in Mylgas' flanking 'platoon' are HMG 42 types, and so my orders for TFA's Sherman during Turn 17 are for it to blow the crap out of one of these teams. If I can eventually rout both of them that should significantly lessen the threat to my men opposite the flag.

The one bit of good news really is that my IS-2 is a turn or two away from posing a real threat to Mylgas' Tigers if they try and approach my own via the road.

With any luck it will also cut the Tiger nearest to the late TFB's position out of the fight completely, by making it too dangerous for it to pass through LOS to escape. One can but hope...

[Flying Column]

Quality troops do make a big difference, don't they?

Though its possible that his Tiger crews are green, and that will give you a chance

[Mies]

What kind of troops do you have left in fighting condition in TFA outside of your hardware assets? You took some casualties from Mylgas' flanking troops right?

[Tux]

Quality really does count, yes. I always think of anything below regulars as good for nothing except scouting, watching and laying down firepower from medium range. I tend to reason that anything that can't be achieved with regulars shouldn't have been attempted in the first place. Veterans and above just help mask any mistakes you make in the infantry war. I still rarely splash out on them though.

Realistically I have a reinforced platoon of decent quality Engineers in TFA. Most of them still have their satchels, in case anyone ever gets up the guts to use them. The group is actually composed of the remains of two separate platoons, both with three squads left I think. I have taken about half a dozen infantry casualties and have had a conscript ATR team wiped out by Mylgas' flankers. His HMG has also caused a single crew casualtiy to my ATG. I'll get a proper count of remaining Engineer manpower for you when I play the next minute.

[Tux]

TFA consists of 2 platoons, each with three squads and a decent HQ. Remaining manpower is as follows: 6xGrn, 7xReg, 8xGrn in the first platoon's sections and 6xReg, 6xReg, 8xReg in the second platoon (holding back fighting the flankers).

Turn 17

TFB is almost entirely gone now: their supporting Sherman is in full retreat and everything is going ok so far. The Sherman's own gun has laid a pretty effective smoke screen across the face of the nearest Tiger. The weather is still, so that smoke will last for the next minute or two which it takes for my Sherman to reach defilade. In fact, unless the nearest Tiger reverses back onto the road and along the red arrow shown below it will be unable to stop my Sherman from retreating safely.

If it does try and move onto the road it will face a fight against my central Sherman + IS-2 pair, but more of that later. The red circle in the shot above shows where I plan to smoke next turn, in order to stop Mylgas' second Tiger from dashing out and taking a quick shot at the retreating Sherman.

Finally, TFB's infantry presence isn't entirely gone yet. I have three green bolt-action riflemen hiding in the small patch of scattered trees just to the left of the Sherman's Area Fire line above. They will be useful as scouts until discovered.

In the opening 10s of the turn, Mylgas' infantry begin trying to dash back across the road to regroup opposite TFA. The one unit which attempts this is immediately and satisfyingly arrested by a combination of my HQ Sherman's MG fire and my IS-2 commander's Dushka. Next turn I shall order the HQ Sherman to destroy them with HE.

At the end of the turn, my two central tanks are positioned as follows:

During Turn 18 I hope to reposition the IS-2 within the blue circle shown. From here it is set to prevent any of Mylgas' infantry or armour from using the main road safely. The HQ Sherman is going to set up just nearby it to help attack infantry crossing the road - I don't want too many to be able to dash across while my IS-2 crew are reloading fresh HE shells.

TFA are doing just fine. My ATG is up and moving towards its final setup zone deep in the woods. The Task Force's supporting Sherman has also done a good job of suppressing both Mylgas' units (an HMG and a squad or HQ) in the patch of trees chosen for Area Fire treatment.

Before the minute is out a retreating mortar (probably empty or low on ammo) and a second HMG 42 have been positively identified as warranting some 'attention' of their own in the next minute or so.

[Flying Column]

If he hasn't got any armor on his left, then surely its looking up for you, isn't it?

He's going to struggle to stop your infantry with Shermans supporting them I'd have thought, and your IS-2 stops his Tigers coming up the road, so you might be able to get the win by the elimination of his left flank.

It looks like both of you can deny each other control of the flag, but not enough to take it.

[Tux]

If he hasn't got any armour on his left then it is looking up, yes. I particularly like my IS-2's current position, with its supporting Sherman: If nothing else, TFB drew Mylgas' forces across the main road in order to engage, which is further than they need otherwise have travelled. I now have two full tanks poised to prevent them from coming back to engage TFA without risking heavy losses. Effectively then, Mylgas is now a Tiger and a reinforced Grenadier Platoon down.... unless... do Tigers carry Smoke ammunition as standard ?

The Tiger might also get lucky and race back across the road, assuming my IS-2 misses its first shot and doesn't get a second. It might also get lucky and defeat the IS-2 with a one-in-three turret penetration in a head-head duel, but that's something of a long shot.

Having said that, once my 57mm ATG is set up and ready to go facing down the main road I may withdraw the IS-2. This is because Mylgas still has a second Tiger with which he can threaten any Shermans which attempt to properly support TFA, and I would like to be able to hunt the second Tiger on my own terms (i.e. not having to work my whats'ems off for dubious flank and rear shots).

To finish off this particular disjointed splat of thoughts and ideas, I agree that I may be able to further harm Mylgas' efforts by chasing his left-sided flanking platoon down and destroying them. The only problem is that the platoon in question is flitting in and out of the fog and trees like nobody's business, and so it's difficult to decide on a suitable axis of advance. I only have one platoon to do it with as well, and they have to be able to cover supporting Shermans from Schreck attack. Also, if Mylgas has any AT guns or bogged tanks towards his starting line, then I could easily come-a-cropper if I push too far.

For my own sake as much as anyone else's, I'm just going to note down here what I think Mylgas has done with his units: I think TFB faced a Grenadier platoon with Panzerschreck and Tiger support. I think the Schreck is low on or out of ammo, and the infantry will have taken a casualty or two and used up a healthy portion of their small Grenadiers' ammo-allotment. This platoon and one Tiger is now (hopefully) cut off and unable to rejoin their colleagues without suffering heavy casualties.

I think Mylgas has another, weak platoon in his centre, opposite TFA. They have all-but-full ammo, and that is all I know (or think I know) about them.

I think he bought a company and has the third platoon as his left flanking force, accompanied by an 81mm mortar and two HMG 42s. The mortar's ammo is low or empty, possibly restricted to a few smoke rounds. The HMGs are either suppressed under direct 75mm HE fire (on the left from my POV, in the trees) or fully IDed in a light building from which covered retreat is almost impossible. Hopefully I can destroy these two as useful combatants in the next couple of minutes.

That leaves whatever else he has, including a few unidentified infantry-type units spotted ghosting about near his second Tiger over the last few minutes. I have no info on these other than that one of them counts a bolt-action rifle amongst its inventory. They could be un-used HQs (ever wished you could sell that green PHQ with no bonuses? ) or weakened auxiliary support weapons. I don't know.

[JasonC]

All he has to do is reposition one of his two Tigers on the far left side of the board, where he broke through, and drive it forward and slightly inward straight at your Sherman on that flank. Infantry up to the tree lines give him spots beforehand, the risks are very low. He kills the flanking Sherman in a head to head overmatch, with trees in the way for your center shooters, and at long range in the fog anyway.

Once your left flank Sherman stopper is gone, you've lost cross fire. His Tigers reorient toward the board center. One hangs around the flag, the other runs deeper to your side of the board then hooks center-ward. Infantry scouts out ahead.

He is then a lock of the flag he is on, ahead on knockouts, and threatening the left-rear of your center stuff. His own screen farther back just skulks out of fog-limited LOS and lets you hit air. He can press for the 2 on 1 vs the slow-firing IS-2, and if he gets it he is heavily favored to win the duel. Or he can hang back behind scouting infantry and wait for your move first.

There is nothing "cut off" about his victorious force, and the center isn't any more decisive a theater than where he is already.

If as is likely he also has a third panzergrenadier platoon and possibly a second shreck, as his reserve, it can go in on the left side of his reoriented line, right toward where your gun set up. Infantry in first there will uncover the gun and probably neutralize it, and if they have a schreck they can bounce your IS-2 out of its position if not bag it outright. You really don't have much infantry out in front of either, facing his win-zone.

Now, he doesn't know where all your assets are, so he may not see these opportunities. He may instead hang back cautiously on the flag he just won. But the win is his for the taking if he does see it, and has even that modest reserve ready, to exploit his initial win.

Incidentally I don't think much of the pure pioneer idea. A few for DCs can make sense, especially if attacking with mines possible, too, or in a city where chances to throw them come up often. But in open village fighting, a mix with 3 SMG squads or some pure SMG is usually stronger. The problem is the pioneers have half the infantry firepower of ordinary infantry. As long as they are late mop up guys, their ammo depth can be useful and that firepower can be enough - but they can't stand up to 2 LMG panzer grenadiers at 100 yards and live to talk about it.