Performing effective reconnaissance.

[freebirdcjb]

How do you perfom propor reconnaissance CMSF? I admit I'm a fairly new to the game and I'm trying to gain some insight on how to do this so I don't wind up in ambushes and can maneuver my forces with some idea of where the enemy is. Like with the HMMWV recon variant, how can I use its infrared sensors to find the enemy in buildings and such? I haven't seen a command for that. Any help would be welcome. Thanks.

[Apocal]

Get hull down. Wait. Or better yet, dismount some troops with optics; strangely enough, antiarmor teams are great for this because they are small and have the CLU which absolutely ****s over all other man-portable sensors.

[hcrof]

Couldn't have said it better myself

With the syrians it is especially important to dismount infantry as recon BRDM's/BMP's are not very observant and very vulnerable. If necessary, bail the crew out to have a look over the ridge/through the forest.

Better is to use sniper or anti armour teams - just like the americans.

Be aware that information is passed through the system very slowly (If at all) so none of your other units will benefit from this information. It just gives you a better picture of the battlefield.

[Apocal]

Honestly, I don't like reconning much with the Syrians. They generally don't have the assets to exploit an information advantage. They are VERY capable of taking my recon forces, chewing them up and then going down the street to use the rest of my forces as a toilet, while I screw around trying to be a masterful tactician.

Gamble big, win big.

[freebirdcjb]

Thanks guys, is there an indicator to let you know when you are hull down? Hull down is when the hull of the vehicle is behind cover right? And with the RV HMMWV I should just get hull down? Will it automatically relay the information after a few minutes?

If anyone has any reading they would recommend that could help me get a better understanding of tactics that would be cool. I've no military training so I don't really know the basics at all. Anyways thanks for the replies, I'll give this mission I'm stuck on a shot again now.

[Pandur]

my game use of scouts is to push em up to the point they get shot at, as fast as possible without them getting destroyed. at that point there are a few different ways to go from.

1. i can throw the enemy(even recon BRDM´s with their 2x4 man support can do something agains a lowish uncon outpost...)i do so, and continue onwards till i fond more enemys.

2. i can pass the enmy, wich is unlikely in most CM situations. if i can i will try and continue recon past the enemy forward positions to get more info on enemy positions in the rear. great stuff if it works, however likely you loose the recon team that way

3. if opposition is stiff and i can bust out, my guys will and go somewhere else to look up another way if there is an inteessting area, if not they simply wait for reinforcements.

4. if there is no way through and no other way to check out they try to break from the fight and stay not far away observing the area like suggested in "3".

no matter what outcome after the enemy is found, when you found enemy, recon job is mostly done anyways. the player knows up to wich point he safely can "rush" his reinforcements and where to unmount the guys.

its a matter of saveing preciouse turns you need to spott for arty missions later on or whatever...

my take on it.

[Apocal]

Thanks guys, is there an indicator to let you know when you are hull down?

For most units, use the targeting button, if you're hull down, it will say "Spotter is hull down" or "Spotter is partial hull down" along the targeting line. I'm unaware if weaponless recon vehicles can do this, in which case it's trial and error.

Hull down is when the hull of the vehicle is behind cover right?

Yes. Behind terrain, at least.

And with the RV HMMWV I should just get hull down? Will it automatically relay the information after a few minutes?

Yes.

[cmfan]

The Javelin CLU is a must have for a dismounted reconnaissance. Never forget to take it along with your scouts when they get off their vehicles if they have one.

Speaking on the subject... As others have pointed out, don't be hesitant to get your troops out of their vehicles to peek over ridges or around other terrain/urban features. Your troops have less of a chance of being spotted and will often identify potential threats at short range faster than your vehicles will.

As with movement to contact situations (moving to engage the enemy) it's generally best to proceed with your smallest unit(s) while heavier ones remain in over watch positions.

Oh, if the tactical situation permits you can also do what's called "scouting by fire". In simple terms it just means that you fire at suspected enemy locations to get them to reveal themselves by firing back or moving out of the area. You can scout by fire with direct fire or artillery. Using direct fire is tricky in that while it can get enemy troops to fire back and thereby reveal themselves to over watch units, your own scouting units will often be spotted themselves. Artillery doesn't have this disadvantage unless someone happens to spot your observer.

[stikkypixie]

How do you perfom propor reconnaissance CMSF? I admit I'm a fairly new to the game and I'm trying to gain some insight on how to do this so I don't wind up in ambushes and can maneuver my forces with some idea of where the enemy is. Like with the HMMWV recon variant, how can I use its infrared sensors to find the enemy in buildings and such? I haven't seen a command for that. Any help would be welcome. Thanks.

With the HMMWV, make sure it's unbuttoned, so there's a guy sticking out his head out of the roof. Otherwise they won't make use of the optics mounted. Then put it somewhere safe, and where you can see the enemy. And then wait. You probably see every enemy, so use your best judgement .

[PSY]

The Javelin CLU is a must have for a dismounted reconnaissance. Never forget to take it along with your scouts when they get off their vehicles if they have one.

Is that realistic or gamey? Would this happen in real life?

[vincere]

Is that realistic or gamey? Would this happen in real life?

From my reading of Brits in Afghanistan it's realistic. Platoons out in the field will use it with their sentries on night stag.

[freebirdcjb]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Really helped me out.

[cmfan]

Is that realistic or gamey? Would this happen in real life?

From what I've read, not gamey. Several Army field manuals suggest using it in this role.

[alex the seal]

Would it be gamey to use your Javelin to take out enemy ATGMS or infantry once spotted?

[cmfan]

Would it be gamey to use your Javelin to take out enemy ATGMS or infantry once spotted?

It's not gamey in the sense that you can't select a squad or team with a Javelin and specifically tell them to use the missile on the enemy infantry. The AI is in charge of deciding what the appropriate engagement weapon is for the most part. In my experience the AI will only fire a Javelin if you have your team target some sort of vehicle or bunker, or in some cases enemy units inside a building. In the latter instance its hard to tell what motivates the AI to use or not use the Javelin with a "Target" command.

As for real world employment... well in combat you use what you have to get the job done. However there are all sorts of tactical and practical considerations that go into a squad/platoon leader's decision to employ a weapon system. Using a Javelin to take out a Toyota pickup with a bunch of enemy fighters riding in the back 300 meters away is probably bad use of your available combat power, particularly if you think there might be armor in the area or a bunker that needs to be demolished. However, if you have a squad being mauled by a heavy machine gun on the back of that pickup then it might just be tactically justified to blast it with the fancy 100k missile.

It just all depends on doctrine, the tactical situation and battlefield conditions. I've heard of instances of air strikes being called in on snipers!

[cabal23]

Using a Javelin to take out a Toyota pickup with a bunch of enemy fighters riding in the back 300 meters away is probably bad use of your available combat power, particularly if you think there might be armor in the area or a bunker that needs to be demolished.

Oh but how entertaining and satisfying to see that truck go up once that Javelin comes to bear on it. I would not win the award for best use of my resources. Though I have watched a sniper take out the same truck loaded with troops. It just isn't as satisfying as a Javelin.

[hcrof]

Didn't someone post a video here a while back that showed a british army unit using a javlin to take out a some guys who were planting an IED in Iraq?

They were just standing in the open being no threat to anyone so it did seem a bit like overkill to me!

[alex the seal]

It's not gamey in the sense that you can't select a squad or team with a Javelin and specifically tell them to use the missile on the enemy infantry. The AI is in charge of deciding what the appropriate engagement weapon is for the most part. In my experience the AI will only fire a Javelin if you have your team target some sort of vehicle or bunker, or in some cases enemy units inside a building. In the latter instance its hard to tell what motivates the AI to use or not use the Javelin with a "Target" command.

As for real world employment... well in combat you use what you have to get the job done. However there are all sorts of tactical and practical considerations that go into a squad/platoon leader's decision to employ a weapon system. Using a Javelin to take out a Toyota pickup with a bunch of enemy fighters riding in the back 300 meters away is probably bad use of your available combat power, particularly if you think there might be armor in the area or a bunker that needs to be demolished. However, if you have a squad being mauled by a heavy machine gun on the back of that pickup then it might just be tactically justified to blast it with the fancy 100k missile.

It just all depends on doctrine, the tactical situation and battlefield conditions. I've heard of instances of air strikes being called in on snipers!

Ever since I read this thread I've had Javelins taking out anything with legs, HMGs, ATGMs, HQ teams etc. This is all done with target commands, mind you my infantry are always out of small arms range, but they always use their Javelins. This is really just for kicks, I realise you can't go using up all your Javelins on any target you spot. But from what understand it wouldn't be considered gamey to take out that hidden recoilless rifle you just spotted with a $100,000 missile, rather than loose a $4 million tank next turn, would it?

[Falconander]

Javalins are great,

I was assaulting and had already taken out all of the enemy armor and had javalins still left on a ridge. I had a large force spotted in trenches. I did an area target with the javalins and BAM! about 8 killed. Another Jav hit, about 6 killed and the rest were broken with no command available.

I believe army life insurance just went up to $400,000 which helps the bean counters determine they better start reinforcing those hummers and a $100,000 missile might be better than losing a 5 man squad.

If one of my hummers goes up with 4 men inside, I'd hate to calculate the costs. You have the life insurance payout, training costs wasted, morale costs, costs to replace the vehicle and the opportunity cost of not having that said vehicle in follow on missions.

Probably easily bucking $2 mil for a hummer of four going up in smoke. So yeah, I'll Jav the RPG if that is all that I have available and I know it is only a matter of seconds before I lose the hummer.

So area target the trenchline.... remember that this will be close enough for horseshoes, hand gernades and well...javalins....

[cmfan]

I understand what your saying about using the Javelin to avoid casualties in real life and in the game. However, remember that in the game we don't have the same supply issues that exist in a real combat zone. The cost of the missile might be irrelevant within a certain calculus but the ability deploy enough to the troops is. How many of these missiles are stocked in the theater of operations? How many do the troops on the ground have before the next resupply? How man can be carried by the men.

Within the game this rarely matters as we almost always start off missions with a full or near full load out and our logistical concerns rarely extend beyond the scenario or at most a campaign. Under such circumstance it doesn't matter how many we use. However in real life tactical and supply considerations will play a larger role in determining employment even if you have several of the missiles lying around.

I can't recall the name of the thread, but a while back someone one these boards was discussing a recent article that stated that the British (I think, it might have been U.S. Army/Marines) were having trouble keeping Javelins in stock because troops used so many early on in Iraq.

[MikeyD]

If necessary, bail the crew out to have a look over the ridge/through the forest.

I'm always doing that accidentally, hitting "K" when I'm in the wrong menu and bailing instead of hunting :mad: On the bright side, scampering your dismounts to peek around that building or over that ridge has saved my bacon more than once. A buttoned tank won't usually blast a couple guys hiding on a ridgeline 500m away, but it'll certainly blast your T62.

[Dietrich]

I've never (intentionally) dismounting a tank's own crew to do impromptu terrain recon, but I can recall playing armor-only scenarios in which some preemptive stealthy spotting would have saved me a knocked-out Abrams or two. The first battle in GeorgeMC's "Forging Steel" campaign is a good example of that -- recon Humvees come in handy.

[hcrof]

IIRC, In 'Allahs fist' a dismounted tank crew was essential. A T-62 is never going to take out a M1A1 from the front so it was great to wait until the enemy turned their flank (observed by a dismounted crew). I then went over a ridge and nailed the US tank platoon whilst they whern't ready for it!

Of course, when the crew is dismounted, they don't have a radio so there is no chance of sharing information with the rest of the platoon. :mad:

[Apocal]

I understand what your saying about using the Javelin to avoid casualties in real life and in the game. However, remember that in the game we don't have the same supply issues that exist in a real combat zone.

This is a problem that can be addressed by more realistic scenario and/or campaign design. There are variables in scenarios for expending ammo and in campaigns for resupply of ammo between missions. If there was a possibility of another fight right around the corner with no chance of resupply, you'd see a lot more players either A) carefully watching their expenditures or losing.

This is realistic as well, as there are several accounts of American forces running out of supplies during the initial invasion of Iraq, most prominent (in my eyes) being the Battle at Objective Titans, a part of the thunder run into Baghdad. And it's worth noting that had the ground portion of ODS gone on any longer than it did in real life, we'd have had very real problems keeping the lead elements supplied.

[cmfan]

This is a problem that can be addressed by more realistic scenario and/or campaign design. There are variables in scenarios for expending ammo and in campaigns for resupply of ammo between missions. If there was a possibility of another fight right around the corner with no chance of resupply, you'd see a lot more players either A) carefully watching their expenditures or losing.

This is realistic as well, as there are several accounts of American forces running out of supplies during the initial invasion of Iraq, most prominent (in my eyes) being the Battle at Objective Titans, a part of the thunder run into Baghdad. And it's worth noting that had the ground portion of ODS gone on any longer than it did in real life, we'd have had very real problems keeping the lead elements supplied.

That's telling considering the U.S. has (or has historically had) one of the better military supply systems in the world.

I've noticed that in CMSF supply tend to get much greater consideration in campaigns than in individual scenarios regardless of what an individual scenario might be trying to represent. In most scenarios it seems that U.S. forces are always set to come into the fight fully stocked.

Personally, I tend to be stingy with my Javelins. I'm not sure why because I'll use artillery and my machine guns like they're going out of style.