Michael Wittman's Demise - did we find the answer?

[Michael Dorosh]

Sorry to bring this up again, a search* hasn't yielded me any real results.

I know this was discussed before, and someone provided a good source, including the name of the gunner, that indicated a British Firefly was repsonsible for the kill of Wittman - not a Typhoon.

Can someone please tell me what that source was, or where I can go to find out this info? The subject has come up on another board.

Thanks in advance.

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.(*)of the first three threads in the General Forum

[Agua]

Is this the post that contained the info you're looking for?: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=001443

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Agua:

Is this the post that contained the info you're looking for?: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=001443[/Q UOTE]

What the hell do you do, map these out on an Excel spreadsheet?

That looks like it; many thanks!

[Michael Dorosh]

Whoops, spoke too soon. The thread I was thinking of actually named the Brit gunner - IIRC, anyway! I'll try a google search. I think Soldier's Story by Whitaker discusses it, but he dilutes the argument by making a claim for a Canadian gunner simultaneously.

[Panzer Leader]

Achtung Panzer says it was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry -- a Firefly.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Achtung Panzer says it was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry -- a Firefly.

From 800m and a side shot IIRC

[Michael Dorosh]

That's a start, thanks Wacky. I sent my last turn - your email still acting up?

[Stuka]

I thought Wittman escaped to Argentina and spent his last years farming Hamsters.

[Flipper]

wittman never died that is the great myth....actually he was severly wounded where thence he was sent back to germany to convalesce

ended the war and lived in west germany after that

if he is still alive these days I dont know?...I don't read the celeberity war heros orbituaries much these days.....SHUFTI CUSH girls

[offtaskagain]

Joe Eskins i think was the Firefly gunners name.

[Andreas]

Wasn't it 'Ekins'? 2nd Northants Yeo, Ken Tout's regiment.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Wasn't it 'Ekins'? 2nd Northants Yeo, Ken Tout's regiment.

1st Northants Yeomanry. At St-Aignan-le-Cramesnil, at around midday on 8th August 1944. The gunner was indeed trooper Joe Ekins; his tank commander, Sgt. Gordon, was disoriented by being hit on the head by a falling hatch, and later wounded by MG fire.

The other claim to bagging Wittman for which I have seen any evidence presented is to RAF Typhoons, a claim mentioned briefly and attributed to "Panzermeyer" in Mike Reynolds' "Steel Inferno".

Gary Simpson's "Tiger Ace", a biography of Wittman, says he fell to 1NY, as do Ken Tout's books, of which the relevant one is I think "A Fine Night for Tanks".

I have never yet seen any supporting evidence offered by those who claim Wittman was bagged by the Canadians, and so assume that this is an error attributable to the fact that 1NY were at the time operating in a Canadian sector.

2nd Northants Yeomanry served as an armoured recce regiment in Cromwells before they were broken up to provide replascements for 1NY; something of their story is told in "Sixty-Four Days of a Normandy Summer" by Keith Jones.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Thanks John, I always mix them up. Both are fine books by the way. I was fortunate that Warwick University library stocked quite a bit on that (beats reading for the PhD anyday).

Are you up for drinks?

[P51D]

Wittman was not killed by tank fire by either the

canucks or the yeomanry. He was killed by Tyffies.

His body was discovered in the early 90's during

the research for the After the Battle series of books entitled Panzers in Normandy Then & Now. I have all data at home somewhere. His grave is in Normandy. Have visited. Photos are available of his Tiger with the turret heavily damaged & the engine deck destroyed from a large penetration

of the compartment. Definetly not an AP hit. It was all meticulously researched & his dental records matched.

All material published since the discovery & publication has acknowledged this. Ken's books were written some time ago.

Ed

[Andreas]

Mike, I think that settles your question. No, we have not resolved the issue.

[P51D]

I am, by profession, a military historian with my own company & we (25-30 strong doctorate & professorship faculty) lecture on WW2 topics all over Europe & the US to Military Colleges, Academies, think tanks, government agencies etc.

The death of Wittman has been resolved in our circles, because of the level of research undertaken during & since the discovery of his body. Expert analysis of the photographs has shown the location of the rocket strike & further concluded that wittman & his crew were incinerated due to the engine fire exploding into the crew compartment through the firewall. Indeed Wittmans skeletal remains showed the lower body (legs, lower abdomen) fused by the intense heat whilst his upper body & head were (skeletally) unscathed.

It was concluded that the rocket impact exploded the fuel tanks instantly causing a massive influx of heat through the destroyed firewall into the crew compartment.

I completed a paper on his death a few years ago that was reviewed & commended at a conference in Stockholm.

Regards

Ed

[PawBroon]

What does it have to do with him getting killed by Typhus?

That's Gamey surely...

[Andreas]

Ed, no offense intended. Is your paper available online?

I see you are in the UK. If you feel like arguing this one over a drink, come to The George in London 1830 this Friday.

[P51D]

Andreas.

No offence taken at all. Just thought i would post seeing as it is one of my 'subjects' & i could see the usual mistakes being made regarding

wittman. No fault of the writers. Just confusion due to the conflicting evidence around prior to the discovery of his remains. It is a pity that

nothing much has been publishes since the discovery especially since the 50th anniversary of the landings. I will check my dates when i

am home to see when the book was published, discovered etc.

No my paper is not online. It was a few years ago & anyway wasn't intended for publication in the general public domain although i believe After the Battle magazine summarised it in an article some months later.

Regards

Ed

[Michael Dorosh]

I'll look forward to reading that, Ed. Any chance of getting a scan of the After the Battle article?

[mccooper]

Hello

While the answer has already been taken care of there are some excellent discussions on the topic of Wittmann's demise on Missing Lynx for anyone who is interested.

Here are just 2 examples

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=961111650

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=1004973972

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by P51D:

Wittman was not killed by tank fire by either the canucks or the yeomanry. He was killed by Tyffies.

His body was discovered in the early 90's during

the research for the After the Battle series of books entitled Panzers in Normandy Then & Now.

[snips]

All material published since the discovery & publication has acknowledged this. Ken's books were written some time ago.

Ed

Amazon gives the publication date of Lefevre's "Panzers in Normandy then & now" as June 1983.

Simpson's "Tiger Ace" was first published in 1994.

Reynolds' "Steel Inferno" was first publushed in 1997.

I can't find my copy of "A fine night for tanks" right ast the moment, but Ken Tout's preceding book, "Tanks, Advance!", bears a first publication date of 1987.

I'd be interested in a precise reference to your paper.

All the best,

John.

[P51D]

thanks for the refs on the Then & Now publication john. Saves me some work later. I have an updated version of the book that i purchased in 97/98 although whether the update included the discovery of Wittman i don't know. I am suprised at the dates of Ken's works. I thought they were earlier as it seems years ago when i read them.

With regard to the publication of incorrect info after the discovery i can only attribute this to lack of research & complying with the skectchy info available prior to the discovery of the remains. I am at a loss to analyse why these theories of the canucks or the yeomanry persisted after the discovery & subsequent invetsigation.

After all the find was well known and discussed feverently in the military history cicles.

As i said previously in the professional historical 'family' the question of his death are solved & not worthy of debate. The photographic evidence alone is irrefutable with regard to a rocket strike & during the investigation the flight logs were discovered belonging to the Tyffie squadron who conducted the attack. Again my memory is hazy on exact details due to the time since i was last researching Wittman data.

The flight logs indicated an attack on Tigers in the open & the location is exactly that of the discovery of the bodies. There were 3 bodies discovered in a shallow grave by the side of a road.

As i said my paper was not published was not in the public domain but was presented at a forum in Sweden some years ago attended by military personnel & historians.

I do not know if After the Battle mag is still available & i never saw the article. I remmeber being informed of the summation but never got to see it.

Regards

Ed

[Kingfish]

Last night I held a séance at my house and the spirit of Michael Wittman was called on. He appeared as a soft blue glow hovering over the dining room table. Over the course of the evening he floated around the room answering questions, stopping only briefly to snag a beer from the fridge.

He talked at great length about the Stug and Tiger, German tactics in general and his exploits at Villers-Bocage (talk about an AAR!). Finally, the question was raised about how he died on 8/8/44. For a while there was silence, then he took a long pull of beer, placed the empty bottle on the table and said ‘That &$%#@! Englishman in the orchard, Damn him to Hell!” followed by another long period of silence. We decided not to pursue it any further, and that’s where the matter ended.

He stuck around for a little while longer, and I even managed to persuade him to a hotseat game of, you guessed it, Villers-Bocage. He had a blast, yelling in German whenever his Tiger would score a kill (needless to say I was getting my ass handed to me. After all, he knows this scenario like that back of his hand). His only complaint was the need to plot all those waypoints just to move vehicles down the roads. I told him that a follow command is the most asked for feature of the game, and suggested that a nocturnal visit to Charles might help convince him to add it into CMBB. He said he’d check to see if he could fit it into his schedule.

Finally, he had to return to where old soldiers go when they pass on. Just before he left he gave me his e-mail address, and said he would send me a setup once his copy of CMBB shows up. Then, he snagged one last beer from the fridge, said farewell to all of us and with a bright flash of light he disappeared into the ceiling.

We plan on calling other souls in the weeks to come. I’ll post a schedule whenever I get around to it, but can tell you that Monty, Bradley and Guderian are on the list. We’ll even try to get Patton and Zhukov in the same room together. That ought to be fun.

[Michael Dorosh]

So Ed, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you aretelling us that the "mystery" of Wittman's death has been solved for well and for good, but you know of no actual published sources that confirm any of what you are saying, though you are reasonably certain that some photos you saw "somewhere" are proof positive of the claims, along with the flight logs (that indicate what, exactly) as well as an unpublished paper of your own creation?

Surely if this were discussed widely in the military historical community you can point us to some small part of this discussion, no?