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Not Another AAR?! Tux Vs. JoMc67


Tux

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Tux,

Wow, a veritable cornucopia of delights. I kept expecting it to end, and the turns just kept coming.

I see you decided to dash with your Stag. The good part is that you uncovered some errant German infantry sneaking forth. The bad point is that you will have to back-track after making a run at the StuGs.

I'd say that Jo is easing more than just one squad forward back there. I agree with you. He is making a push for the rear flags. That could explain why he hasn't fortified the center flags you have so easily overtaken so far. He is screening your advancing force while he makes a push to your flank & rear.

I think the Stag's rush for glory needs to be terminated, and he should move back to address the possible infantry movement to the rear. The StuGs will likely blunder into your Wolverine's LOS. Jo is probably taking off the gloves as we speak, and things will heat up quite a bit shortly.

Good fun. We are enjoying the move/countermove.

Heinrich505

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Tux,

Regarding the Staghound's actions, go with your gut. If it doesn't feel right to continue the all out advance, then pull in your horns. Sorry, couldn't resist punning the metaphor!

OTOH, if it does feel right, then press on and expect to do a lot of damage. Remember, the target is ALWAYS the mind of the enemy commander. This will screw with his head, and unlike a jeep with an MG, the Staghound can take some punishment while dealing it out wholesale.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Hoolaman, absolutely! I have decided not to comment too often and let my turns do the talking. As I mentioned though, I've decided that, now Jo definitely knows of my Stag's existence, I should push on and go for broke. What's the worst that can happen...? ;)

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Turn 12

Frustration! Even as the Staghound arrives in position to attack the rear of the SPGs both vehicles reverse quickly past it. The Stag engages, and is about to fire when its ‘fast’ move back to Platoon C kicks in and it begins to rotate. The Stag rotates on the spot faster than its turret can turn to keep the target StuG in its sights, and so it never gets off a shot! Bugger (to put it mildly)…

Irish37.jpg

On the (slightly) positive side, both SPGs have been positively IDed as late-mid StuG IIIGs. Doesn’t change much, but there you have it. Both StuGs are now in a very strong position from which to engage armour which I try to move in support of Platoon A, should I need to.

Irish38.jpg

Speaking of Platoon support, my operation to secure my forces’ right flank (behind Platoon C) seems to be going well. Two German infantry units are spotted retreating from the position my Stag found them in into a nearby building.

Irish39.jpg

One of them is labelled “Infantry?” and the other is labelled “Crew?”. If they were elements of a flanking force, then they are retreating, which is good. Whether they are or not, my Sherman is now all but in position to cut off any further infantry movements in that direction:

Irish40.jpg

One final piece of intelligence I gleaned from these infantry units is that they are wearing Luftwaffe uniforms. Unfortunately I don’t know enough about different infantry types to put this information to good use!

In my orders for Turn 13 I cancel the Stag’s movement back towards its starting line. My reasons for doing this are as follows: Currently, I have the initiative. Joe’s StuGs are reacting to my moves and are thus limited in their ability to properly counter the movement of my Staghound. Secondly, Joe has seen my Staghound change direction and begin moving back away from his StuGs. He is therefore slightly less likely to expect me to change back again and renew my assault on the two SPGs. Thirdly, both StuGs are now cornered against the map edge. Whilst this may seem like a strong position from which to fire across the map it also limits them to forwards movement only. If I can race my Stag out and curve about to park immediately to the rear and side of the StuGs they will be forced to either rotate on the spot to engage or to expose their rear armour by driving away to escape. The fourth reason is that the StuGs’ failure to engage my lone PIAT team with more than a brief burst of MG fire leads me to suspect that they have been given blue cover arcs directly across the map. If I can get my Staghound behind them, no matter by how little, the TacAI will have to ignore the cover arc to engage, which it is usually reluctant to do.

To maximise the chances of this move succeeding I have buttoned my ‘Hound to avoid a close range MG burst killing the commander when it dashes out in front of the StuGs. I have also given my Wolverine a shoot ‘n’ scoot order to the road covered by the StuGs. As long as I can kill both StuGs with this assault then I consider the Wolverine expendable. I doubt Joe has any other armour heavy enough for me to miss a 76mm gun once these two SPGs are gone. If it works as planned, the Wolverine will enter LOS to the StuGs just as they are attempting to engage the armoured car, thus confusing them and buying one or other of my units time to shoot. Finally, the Sherman I have supporting Platoon A has a delayed reverse order given to him; Two seconds into the next minute he is going to have the option of reversing out for a shot at the StuGs, should they have killed the Wolverine and rotated to engage the Staghound. I don’t want to lose this Sherman though, so if the other two units are managing ok I will play it safe and cancel the reverse move.

So there you have it. To help you picture it, here is what all those orders look like:

Irish36.jpg

The Wolverine is bottom left, the Stag mid-right, and the Sherman is top left.

Wish me luck!

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Tux,

A daring and ambitious plan. I think it does hinge on whether or not the StuGs have that armor covered arc you mentioned. I've yelled at my tankers on many an occasion when a threat suddenly appears outside the arc, and they blindly follow orders and ignore the threat, usually to their destruction. I do think you have timed it cleverly though. This might make all the difference.

Good luck on your planned action. Don't think you have to get uber-aggressive just to spice things up a bit. We are enjoying it either way.

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Good luck! Just hope the Staghound doesn't get KO'ed when it passes in front of the StuG's, that will throw your whole plan out the window, and possibly result in a dead Stag, and a dead Wolverine as well, with nothing to show for it.

It might be better to have the wolverine stop just short of LOS before the next turn, so you can abort it if the Stag is unsuccessful. That would limit the effect of the Stag being a distraction though, hmmm.

I dunno, however it plays out, good luck.

BUT! If I happen to be right, I just want everyone to know that I called it :)

EDIT: Personally I think you are being a little too aggressive here, you already know where the StuG's are, and they aren't an immediate threat.

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I'm pretty sure a stag moves quick enough that the plan is workable. You'd have to be very unlucky to have them engage such a quickly moving target across their frontal arc, and they turn slowly.

But there is a very good possibility for a classic hair pulling CM replay if the Stag gets distracted engaging a target OTHER than the stugs. I'm thinking close infantry anti-tank would get the TacAI to ignore the stugs.

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SPOILERS to Follow

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OK, I got really bored today so I ran some tests on this situation, here is the most typical result I got:

Turn-1

Staghound survived, Wolverine Died.

Turn-2

Removed cover arc from Staghound, and targeted closest StuG, Reversed Sherman to engage.

Stag shot bounced from StuG as it turned towards Stag, Sherman shot and missed, was KO'ed by second StuG. First StuG put 2 shots into Stag and KO'ed it.

I think the biggest problem is the cover arc that is present on the Staghound in the screenshot. Tux, I hope you removed the cover arc or adjusted it before you hit 'go', because the cover arc, as it is placed in the screenshot, will prevent the Stag from engaging the StuG's.

Also, the Stag runs past the StuG's so fast that the StuG's do not turn all the way around, instead they only turn to the side a few degrees then turn back to their normal facing.

However, this test is assuming that the StuG's have a blue cover arc facing down the road, and if they don't, then the plan would proceed differently.

However, when I ran the test with all cover arcs removed, both the Wolverine and the Staghound were killed, and both StuG's still survived.

So, even after a very bored afternoon of running many tests, I must conclude that your plan has only a 10% chance of success, success being determined by killing only one StuG. I was not able to run the plan in any way to KO both of them.

(Forgive me if this post is unwanted, but I was VERY bored this afternoon.)

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The idea is that my Stag's blue cover arc should ensure that, once it reaches its final position, it is already aiming at the nearest StuG. That's what I thought it would do, anyway...

Turn 13

My heart skips a beat in the first second of the minute as a Panzerfaust is launched from a building nearby my Staghound.

Irish41.jpg

We both have detailed armour hits off, so I don’t know how but the impacting projectile fails to damage my armoured car. Perhaps a glancing hit on the gun barrel? The next 30 seconds are painful as I wait for a second to be launched and nip my little project right in the bud, but finally my ‘Hound is up and moving, and the operation is underway.

After 40-odd seconds the car races into LOS of the two skulking StuGs. The two German crews are falling over themselves trying to engage in time, but the plucky Brits are just too fast!

Irish42.jpg

The Staghound screeches to a halt metres away from the nearest StuG, but the crew haven’t spotted the two SPGs yet! Thankfully, two factors intervene to buy them time: Firstly, they are now outside the StuGs’ cover arcs and, just as the German crews debate whether to disobey orders to re-engage, the second factor appears in the distance:

Irish43.jpg

Mwahahahahahaaaa! What wouldn’t the wartime Allies have given for unit coordination as perfect as this?! The Wolverine is directly ahead of the two StuGs, and so they each level their barrels to engage. The Wolverine fires off a shot which falls short, and just as it reverses back out of LOS one of the StuGs gets off a reply:

Irish44.jpg

Thankfully, this round also falls short and the Staghound has now acquired a target. Before the smoke from the StuG’s shot has dispersed the Staghound’s gun barks and a 75mm shell crunches through thin flank armour, causing agonising cries to be heard coming from inside.

Irish45.jpg

<Turn continued in next post>

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The only development elsewhere is for an HMG 42 to be located across the Boulevard from Platoon B. It poses no threat, since I am not planning to cross the Boulevard here, but it is nonetheless located when it opens fire to button my speeding Wolverine and is quickly suppressed by the riflemen of Platoon B holding the buildings opposite.

My orders for Turn 14 consist of the following: I have given the Staghound fast movement orders to take it back to support Platoon C. The orders are complex enough that it should have time to kill both StuGs before it starts to move. The orders also take it back via the main Boulevard, since I thought that route would be safer from infantry AT-weapons than the side streets I used for the initial attack.

I am assuming that Joe’s StuGs are his only full AFVs, and that they will both be killed by the Staghound in the next minute. My Wolverine is therefore now, as far as I’m concerned, an HE-chucker. I have kicked the crew off in this new role by reversing them back to support Platoon C from my side of the Boulevard and giving them an order to hit the newly-discovered HMG 42. I’ve kept it buttoned to avoid unnecessary casualties and to save the .50 cal ammo in case it’s needed later on.

Irish46.jpg

My 25-lber is going to Area Fire at the buildings immediately opposite Platoon C’s two point units as part of a general exercise to make life difficult for any of Joe’s infantry who may be sitting near the flag in that area.

Finally, the Sherman to the rear of Platoon C is going to lob an HE shell or two after the two retreating infantry units and then move out to cover the long main road that was previously covered by my Vickers HMG. The latter is a few seconds away from reaching its new setup position from where it will, apart from anything, be able to protect my Sherman’s flank.

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Holy Moley, is this working out alright or what?!! Talk about combined arms and clockwork coordination. You must have promised those boys in the Stag something amazing, like dinner with PM Churchill at Downing Street, or better yet, 2 weeks in Paris, all expenses paid. If I was your opponent, I wouldn't have seen this play coming either.

Oh yes, SLIM, I congratulate you on your choice of activities to cover your boredom. It was quite interesting reading your tests on the survivability of Tux's proposed insanity. I was bored too, but ended up napping in the comfy chair, cat in lap, while "watching" division II football, ha hah.

Tux has obviously mastered the art of the "Cliffhanger." Continued next post....ARRGGHHH!

Heinrich505

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Turn 14

My Staghound crew are clinical in their execution of the two StuGs. The armoured car actually alternates between targets, putting one shell through the flank of one StuG before turning to make sure its twin doesn’t come back to life. It penetrates each StuG twice during the minute in this manner and, as it races away towards its next job both SPGs are completely wrecked.

Irish47.jpg

There is not much other news to report. The HMG 42 goes to ground early in the minute – I think Joe might have ordered it to hide. Either way I have assigned my Wolverine and two Platoon B rifle sections to Area Fire at the MG’s last known location. I want to really shake them up while there is little else to do.

In the next couple of turns, with the rest of my campaign having gone so well so far, I am going to look to consolidate my claim on the central flag. I will Area Fire high explosive at nearby locations and then assault them when I deem it safe.

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Turn 15

The men of Platoon B hunch over their sights as they spy movement in the building occupied by the HMG team. They are about to open fire when a white pillow case flops over the windowsill and billows peacefully in the breeze. There is a moment of confusion as the men take cover and wait for their NCOs to make contact with HQ. Slowly, reports filter through of similar goings on across the city. There’s no question about it - the Germans have surrendered!

An atmosphere of anticlimax mingles strangely with the forced humour of men cheated of the opportunity to relieve the pent-up tension in their shoulders and necks. Discipline is difficult to maintain in such conditions, but there are no problems this time and almost 150 German Fallschirmjager troops are taken hostage:

Irish48.jpg

Joe’s troops are perplexingly positioned. The ‘flanking force’ my Wolverine hit and which Platoon A were positioned to resist consisted of a single, two-man MG 42 team and two 81mm Mortars. Nothing else. I can only imagine Joe wanted to align the Mortars so as to produce a wide smoke-screen which he could use to cover an assault across the main Boulevard.

The ‘flanking force’ my Staghound encountered and which I worried so much about consisted of a single, two-man MG 42 team and a Panzerschreck. Nothing else. Perhaps this was just a screening force?

Irish49.jpg

Joe also has a full Fallschirmjager Company, with platoons positioned at 1, 2 and 3 in the screenshot below (in which I have also noted the positions of British platoons A, B and C).

Irish50.jpg

Platoon 1 seems to be positioned to (eventually) push across the road towards Platoon A. Platoon 3 is sort of in position to combat Platoon C, except that they don’t have LOS to any of the approaches to the flag except the open pavement in the centre of the housing block:

Irish51.jpg

It is the positioning of Platoon 2 that I find the most bizarre however. Jo, have they moved at all since the beginning of the game?

Very good fight mate – really made me think. Now you may make yourself known and add whatever you want to say about the fight as a whole. Oh, and I’d be fascinated to learn what your plan was.

P.S. And, of course, let the discussion begin! Every opinion and comment is welcome. We have an interesting opportunity, now that we have all watched the exact same fight, which we can exploit to compare opinions on the tactics and equipment employed by both sides.

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Tux,

Congrats on your victory. Clearly the amazing fan dance of the Stag was the straw that broke the opposition's back. Once that happened, I think that JoMc67 was completely demoralized, and imagined that additional Sherman tanks were going to materalize, a la the Philadelphia Experiment inside his buildings to shred his remaining forces. I sympathize with him, as my jaw was hanging open and I wanted to say, What the #&@*#(%.

I am guessing that JoMc's plan was to use the StuGs as a support base to run one of his platoons across the boulevard. His fast movers were unexpectedly eliminated early, and that put a major crimp in his plan, as they could provide major diversions to your flank, just as the Stag proved against his flank.

Well, at least that is what I think I might have done with the forces available. Smoke the living daylights out of the crossing point, and run the paras across, while at the same time trying for some flank shots on your armor. The fast movers would rush around, giving you glimpses of their action, and making you move to cover flanks, as a distraction..

The action was really nice. I think you both put on a good fight. Thanks for sharing the battle with us all. It isn't easy putting your moves and tactics on display to this august audience, for commentary and criticism. That takes a lot of guts. I commend you both.

Tux, your sorcery was a bit too much for your opponent.

Heinrich505

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Comments based on what I saw in the thread. Thus I may be wrong with my conclusions.

Both sides showed little coordination between inf and AFVs. Both sides used light AFVs as expendable. Your Stag was well timed - but had lots of luck it wasn't killed by a faust on the approach march. Jo's SdKfz had less luck.

In such a dense terrain StuGs need close cover and recce from inf. That was Jo's big mistake. Mutually supporting positions - ie both facing each other with at least 100m between them on narrow streets or both facing one direction with 100m to the nearest crossroads and inf covering the rear.

Plt 2 is positioned so it has covered approaches to plts 1 and 3. Not a bad place for a reserve. But with limited troops the reserve can double as guards for the armored reserve.

The small foot flanking forces could act as a diversion. But they are pretty far from the action - which makes it possible to ignore them, reducing their value to almost null. The fast moving ACs were pretty much in the center. Combining these forces, using the ACs as transport - if possible - would have been better.

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Mostly fair points. I'd be very interested to learn how to better coordinate AFVs with infantry on such a map. In my experience the infantry from both sides melts away into the ubiquitous heavy cover within minutes on an urban map, and so I tend to use AFVs as mobile pillboxes to isolate areas that I want my infantry to control.

I think Jo was too late to position his StuGs where they could do any harm, and also failed to protect them well enough. My Stag was lucky to get past a Panzerschreck team and a Faust-armed squad without coming to any harm, but on the other hand it was the car's speed that saved it from the Schreck (which was the main reason I bought the thing in the first place) and a moment of delay caused by my own change of orders that made it vulnerable to the Panzerfaust. When comparing my Stag to Jo's armoured cars I think it has to be rememered: My Stag made a high-speed, pre-meditated thrust towards two pre-located and vulnerable high-value targets along a relatively obscure road which was unlikely to be lined with enough infantry with wide enough LOS to pose a serious threat if it kept moving. Jo's armoured cars both raced across the Boulevard and into my flank without any prior knowledge of what units I may have in the area. They subsequently ran head-first into a full medium tank at less than 100m range and both quickly died.

We may both have treated cars as expendable, but I would argue that my move was more of a calculated risk.

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Your move was much better as you had some intel and a clear objective. Still risky, but well worth the risk. Could have stressed that a bit more.

Regarding Jo's StuGs, I think StuGs need targets before moving, so it is ok to wait for them. The big mistake was lack of inf protection for them - and wasting the light AFVs that could also provide cover vs your Stag or act as eyes or decoys.

IRL lack of turrets was made up by close coordination with inf. Stugs were mobile pillboxes - or armored, mobile IGs. IIRC StuGs moved "infantry first". Lots of inf and lots of StuGs to avoid open flanks. Not well suited for dense terrain - except if inf covers their flanks.

You had a company sized battlegroup on a map that might have seen a regiment or even a division (with losses). Put a regiment on it and it will be much easier to coordinate inf and AFVs.

Given the existing map and forces, I would have opted for the following:

- Light flanking force, acting as decoys and eyes. Not pushing them too far, just giving advance warning. One unit per side watching your rear, 1-2 units trying to infiltrate the enemies rear - either from both sides or just from 1.

- Mortars providing smoke is a good idea - but they are slow and can't protect themselves. I would have split them, ideally one coordinated with a section HQ on a flank, the other with a plt. Could have wrecked havoc on your 25pdr or Wolverine.

- Lots of half squads. Whoever gets ambushed on the street dies - whether a halfsquad fires at a squad or a squad at a halfsquad. Halfsquad reduce losses and add fighting power as you can cover a bigger area. The trouble is the command range, but a company has 3 plt HQ with 4 halfsquads each, a Co HQ with 4 halfsquads - and 2 halfsquads as flank recce. Proper use of halfsquads sees the LMG team a bit back. Lots of markers on one flank might trick the opponent into believing all of your force is there. You will suffer a morale penalty - but only for one half of the squad. The other fires back and stops the enemy from closing in for the kill.

- I would not expect arty that really hurts in large stone buildings. So AFVs are not arty magnets for their CS inf. Besides there are no really good places for FOs in dense terrain. So AFVs indicating inf positions is not a problem. Having an inf screen ahead instead of "inf close support" around the AFVs moves the AFVs a bit from the inf, so reduces intel for the enemy.

- Then it is just a wide line of inf in the center, AFVs behind that screen and eyes on the flanks - except for the increased inf screen this resembles your basic plan

- Find: inf

- fix: inf

- suppress: AFVs

- destroy: inf (only suppressed targets) and AFVs

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