Meta Campaign for CM:SF?

[sdp]

Well I'm still working on the Operation Nemesis MC... Progress is slow however, and to be frank I'm in no hurry - I'm aiming at Q1-Q2 2009 as I would like very much to include the british and the euro-modules in the ORBAT for the blue side.

Anyway, your work really looks good! I've put together orbat for the 1st and 2nd syrian corps, don't know if you can use them - you may find them here;

http://cmsfmc.googlegroups.com/web/syrian-orbat-2-corps.gif?hl=sv&gda=ECfdxEoAAADgMSU3h5zuQMwdV6aPJXDj_CRbNKjS_S5T82XzQVnQ2n4pbsX6gNqrcYcGC9jIzgtZbPj-1sokCvCMckrCUpkI_e3Wg0GnqfdKOwDqUih1tA

and here

http://cmsfmc.googlegroups.com/web/syrian-orbat-1-corps.gif?hl=sv&gda=QkCt30oAAADgMSU3h5zuQMwdV6aPJXDj_CRbNKjS_S5T82XzQVnQ2lmg9s1Us3LmcubhfTOH4sdZbPj-1sokCvCMckrCUpkI_e3Wg0GnqfdKOwDqUih1tA

regards/

sdp

[Cpl Steiner]

I've put together orbat for the 1st and 2nd syrian corps, don't know if you can use them - you may find them here;

http://cmsfmc.googlegroups.com/web/syrian-orbat-2-corps.gif?hl=sv&gda=ECfdxEoAAADgMSU3h5zuQMwdV6aPJXDj_CRbNKjS_S5T82XzQVnQ2n4pbsX6gNqrcYcGC9jIzgtZbPj-1sokCvCMckrCUpkI_e3Wg0GnqfdKOwDqUih1tA

and here

http://cmsfmc.googlegroups.com/web/syrian-orbat-1-corps.gif?hl=sv&gda=QkCt30oAAADgMSU3h5zuQMwdV6aPJXDj_CRbNKjS_S5T82XzQVnQ2lmg9s1Us3LmcubhfTOH4sdZbPj-1sokCvCMckrCUpkI_e3Wg0GnqfdKOwDqUih1tA

sdp,

Thanks for that. Whilst I prefer to stick with whole divisions for most Syrian units your data has at least confirmed my Division designations and I'm tempted to colour-code the black bar across the top of each counter to show what corps the unit belongs to. It's also handy to know what SF units belong with each corps.

[Cpl Steiner]

sdp,

Thanks for that. Whilst I prefer to stick with whole divisions for most Syrian units your data has at least confirmed my Division designations and I'm tempted to colour-code the black bar across the top of each counter to show what corps the unit belongs to. It's also handy to know what SF units belong with each corps.

I should also add that your data will be invaluable when it comes to translating a battle on the Operational map into a CM:SF scenario.

The more I think about this, the more I want to break the divisions down into their component brigades/regiments on the Op map, but I think it might end up making the Op rules too complex. For one, I think Syrian units should be pretty centralised, with each component of a division having little freedom to act independently of the HQ. Hmm, I will have to think about this some more.

[EDIT]

I also think my Republican Guard counter should be an Armoured division. According to Wikipedia, it has 3 armoured brigades and 1 mech brigade, so a tank symbol would be more appropriate. Alternatively, maybe this division alone should be split into component brigades on the Op map to represent the fact it is better trained and led.

I would also be interested to know how the 7th and 10th Mechanised divisions end up having 2 armoured brigades and only 1 mech infantry brigade?!

[sdp]

Seem to remember that I based the orbat on information that I found on this page;

http://www.meib.org/articles/0108_s1.htm

Of course, I suspect that there might be som factual errors in this text - if you read it carefully You'll see that the author contradict himself on one or two occasions...

regards/

sdp

[stemar]

here an ORBAT i made with various sources and docs :

I corps

HQ DAMASCUS

Area: dara/Israelian border/Jordanian border

5th Arm XX (17&96 Arm X, 112 Mech X)

8th Arm XX (62&65 Arm X, 32Mech X)

9th Arm XX (43&91 Arm X, 52 Mech X)

8 & 9th Arm divisions, are at 100% readiness, and had to be consider as elite unit (in syrian standard)

6th Arm XX (12&98 Arm X, 11 Mech X)

7th Mech XX (58&68 Arm X, 78 Mech X)

14th Abn XX (four Abn X)

more in line of commando/SoF unit for interior security

1, 2, 3 & 4 SF III (BN sized, with 2 heliborne trained for operation on golan height, other two trained in SoF/Counter Insurgeency)

Al Saïqa II (may be the old 82th Abn II, the lone real SoF unit in Syrian ORBAT)

II Corps

HQ Zebdani

Area: North of Damascus, Libanese and E/SE border)

1st Arm XX (44&46 Arm X, 42 Mech X)

3th Arm XX (47&82 Arm X, 132 Mech X

particulary loyalist, used in Hama repression in the 80's, at 100% readiness and considered as elite

11th Arm XX (60&67 Arm X, 87 Mech X)

4th Mech XX (1 Arm X, 61&89 Mech X)

could maintain special insurgency capacity, include most of Saraya Al difa (regime defense unit), may the only mechanized 100% effective in peacetime

10th Mech XX (51&85 Arm X, 123 Mech X)

5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 SF III (BN sized)

the 5th may be dedicated in SIGINT installation protection, 9 could be an instruction unit under command of III corps at Aleppo, 10 may be a reserve unit.

III Corps

HQ Aleppo

Area: West coastline, Turkish & Iraqi Border

2nd Arm XX (14&15 Arm X, 19 Mech X)

the 2nd division is an instruction unit

Non attached units

120th Mountain infantry X (elite)

Border/desert guard X (BN/regiment sized, motorized, elite)

One Arm X (designation could be 27, 8 or 70)

2 motorized brigade (deisgnation could be 40 at Tadmur, 138 at Mazzeh, 155 or 69 anywhere)

12&13 Motorized XX (reserve division unit)

3 motorized infantry reserve X (designation unknow)

1 art reserve X (designation unknow)

31 infantry reserve X

4 Arm reserve X

3 Art Reserve X

3 SSM X

1 Coastline SSM X

4 Marines unit (coy/BN sized) for Gd duty in naval installation, one of this unit could cover a combat swimmer SoF unit of coy sized

some of this unit could be part of both reserve motorized XX

Mech Guard XX (formely Arm XX with 3 arm and 1 Mech X)

1 U/I unit designed as Saraya Al Sira (defense force) or Coy 549 (# 5000 men), counter insurgency unit

8000 paramilitary (local defense force)

100 000 militia (baath party)

[stemar]

the brigade numbering was mainly from various docs i found on the 73 war and so i stated that most of brigades are still in same division

i stated that except all fully mobilized division, other had at least 1 brigade in reserve, some mech got 2 arm X for this, 1 surely a reserve unit with low rank MBT

some source stated that some of the SoF III are part of the 14th Abn division, i staed personnaly thats not the case, like in most non democratic country where you need a lot of commando/paramilitary units, here except for the 4 SF unit trained for golan height operations (it seems this unit are highly skilled like stated green beret who work with them during desert storm) other are surely of low utility in a military campaign

i forgot the 2 heavy art brigade and 2 AT brigade garrisson on golan height

with most of syrian heavy art assets, and older static MBT used as AT bunker

got also an art TO&E, got the same for regular unit but on paper only, if i got time or if need i will post it latter

[stemar]

here the art TO&E

art to&e_2.0.zip

[sdp]

Excellent stuff, stemar, this is useful indeed! If you find the time it would be great if you could post the to&e for the other units as well. Thanks!

regards/

sdp

[Cpl Steiner]

Thanks everyone!

I've updated my counters to reflect the corps designations and to make some of the supposedly superior units have a higher "combat factor".

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi again,

I couldn't resist doing some battalion-level counters for the Syrians based on the excellent TO&E information provided by stemar, so here's a quick screenshot. I hope Scipio doesn't mind but I borrowed his unit silhouettes for the counters as they looked better than the ones in the OIF VASSAL module. Combat and movement values are based on the OIF module rules and estimates of relative combat effectiveness based on stemar's data.

[Cpl Steiner]

I couldn't resist doing some battalion-level counters...

Whoops, should have said "brigade-level".

[Cpl Steiner]

Both I and II Corps done (apart from infantry units):

[Cpl Steiner]

2-25 SBCT added, broken down into Battalions. I figured a US battalion would have the same level of autonomy and the same relative combat effectiveness as a Syrian Brigade, so this should work OK. Of course, hex size and stacking considerations still need to be considered.

[kipanderson]

Steiner, hi,

It does all look great… congratulations….

I am going to have to look into how to use Vassal as the operational layer in a CMMC type game.

As I have said many a time before… the ultimate from of wargame is the mix of an operational layer and CM to resolve the contact battles…

All the best,

Kip.

[Cpl Steiner]

Steiner, hi,

It does all look great… congratulations….

I am going to have to look into how to use Vassal as the operational layer in a CMMC type game.

As I have said many a time before… the ultimate from of wargame is the mix of an operational layer and CM to resolve the contact battles…

All the best,

Kip.

Thanks Kip,

Some more counters done (first 3 brigades of the 3rd Infantry Division). Does anyone know if all of the 3rd ID is supposed to be in the hypothetical invasion of Syria of CM:SF? I can't really make out what units are involved from the deluxe edition map.

[Yardstick]

This is a great idea! I would pay for something like this.

Now we need 4 BDE, 3ID...

[Cpl Steiner]

This is a great idea! I would pay for something like this.

Now we need 4 BDE, 3ID...

Thanks Angryson,

Adding units is easy - I just copy a previous one and overwrite the unit designations. What I'm not sure of is exactly which units to do? The CM:SF deluxe edition map is a bit vague about which units are which.

I've done the 3rd ID because they took part in the Invasion of Iraq 2003. However, I'm not even sure if they are supposed to be in the hypothetical invasion of Syria portrayed in CM:SF. I suppose it doesn't really matter which units are shown as long as it's a credible US invasion force but it would be nice to have an OOB everyone agrees on.

[Tactical Wargamer]

This is a great idea! I would pay for something like this.

Now we need 4 BDE, 3ID...

So would I!!

[ChrisND]

I've done the 3rd ID because they took part in the Invasion of Iraq 2003. However, I'm not even sure if they are supposed to be in the hypothetical invasion of Syria portrayed in CM:SF. I suppose it doesn't really matter which units are shown as long as it's a credible US invasion force but it would be nice to have an OOB everyone agrees on.

It really doesn't matter as long as it is internally consistent. There are better things to be worrying about.

[Cpl Steiner]

It really doesn't matter as long as it is internally consistent. There are better things to be worrying about.

Very true!

Using OIF as a base I suppose a credible invasion force would be:

2 SBCTs (2/25th and one other)

4 HBCTs (3 ID)

5 IBCTs (82nd AB bde, 101st AB div, 173rd AB bde)

4 Marine btns (2nd MEB with 26th MEU under command)

I think I'll stick with that unless anyone thinks otherwise.

What I'd like to do is just finish all the counters, roll them all up into a basic VASSAL module, and then make it freely available for anyone to download.

Now for scale. For an operational game with US battalions pitted against Syrian brigades, how big should a single hex be? Would something like 10km per hex be OK?

[kipanderson]

Hi,

“I would pay for something like this.”

Me too….

I think there is a small niche market for a kit to use as an operational layer in CMSF and future releases of CMX2 titles.

Maps covering the operational area in which the title is set… examples of units and how to edit and construct them…. and a How To in how to move and track units in the operational layer… but all kept simple and basic….more a unit tracking system over versions of real world topographical maps…

Good luck,

Great stuff,

Kip.

[stemar]

Hi,

yeah if you want something more than a QB generator, and add all the flavor of a real campaign, you need a rule set to track all unit in_out of the operational map, play all OffMap actions (SOF, ADA, SSM, Log ...), something detailed enough to be at least as realistic than CMSF, and Basic enough to be playable.

There is a good basic rule set that could be use, like i said previously, its the one made for Harpoon to add a ground unit layer to harpoon scenario, this rule set was made for the H4 edition of the Falkland war.

For a syrian campaign, most of Air war and ADA interaction could be really abstract and simple to use and the ground rule could be simplify.

The hard part is the interaction itself, keep tracking of all loses, ammo in CMSF and have a good system to track all this at the operational level.

The best thing to do for this (i think) is to generate a kind of Excel sheet that track all this at a high level of realism, and generate itself value for the operational layer, players got one sheet before the battle, and once the battle is finished send it with the last save game to a referee that only track final result for each unit in the spreadsheet.

The problem is also the level of the campaign, with one player /BN, it made a very large team to simulate at least a division operation...

Another possibility is to separate operational playing and tactical one, with a team playing only division, and a pool of tactical players playing only CMSF scenario.

You can also stretch the campaign only to a division operation, other part of the campaign being played abstractly.

For the syrian player its different since the attrition level can't have a system where a player is attached to a particular unit (thats made a lot of player for few party each)

Anyway, i post also a docs where i give all docs i find to made an ORBAT and a TO&E, its a personal view, especially for the TO&E, because i find very fews indications of tactical organisation so i take classical old style soviet TO&E and adapt it.

Some indications and choices made by Battlefront are not followed in my TO&E because i don't know the sources they work on, and sometimes i don't understand their choices, for example the fact that in CMSF AGS17 teams are only present in reserve units...

this docs certainly need works to precise some points, if need i can work some something more precise and complete.

syria ORBAT 2.1.zip

[sdp]

Youv'e got some good points there, Stemar. I agree, the hard part about constructing a MC is not the map itself, it's the losstracking and managing of units and subunits. Have to be detailed enough to be fun, simplified enough to be managable to GMs and tactical players (the CM players).

One of the most tricky parts I'm working on right now is the fact that you haven't really got a useable loss record after you fought a CM battle - you only have casualties and losses in numbers - if you would like to find out losses as per unit you would have to go back to the map and count each soldier and vehicle. That would be to tedious imo... Even so, you don't have much use of the detailed loss record, since in the scenario editor you're limited to have units either "alive" or "dead".

Now there's a tricky part - how to recalculate the actual losses in a CM battle and apply them in a reasonably complex and yet still easy enough way in the TO&E of the editor?

Oh ,and btw, Cpl Steiner, your counters look really nice! Keep up the good work!

regards/

sdp

[stemar]

yes you re right especially if you want to maintain a kind of fog of war during and after battle, player can't go to the last battle screen showing all results...

The only way to do this is to permit to players to do the job themselves, and send their sheet results (casualties) with the last file of the battle, referee can have a look or not but players don't know...

but its difficult to avoid the body count...

The first things to do is to se how many players could be involved in such campaign, and at which level...?

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Many of the “back office” problems of MCs are reduced or disappear if you have high quality GMs/Umpires who have God like powers and use their discretion and judgement.

Having a high enough ratio of GMs to players and then having not too many rules written down is the key.

If I get round to doing one I intend to design it first, have GMs in place and then, last of all recruit players on a take it or leave it basis.

Contact battles in CMX2 need not always be human v human… the AI is now so good that GMs can sometimes design games to be played against the AI. Also… sometimes the GMs should get a game by designing a scenario to set realistic challenges for the players with the GMs acting as the “computer player”…. Some contact battles would also be decided by the Umpires at the operational level.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.