The end of capitalism as we know it?

[Lars]

Hmm…

I don't know how familiar you are with US history, but we had to change the Constitution to get the income tax we struggle under now. Up until WWI the Federal Government was largely paid for by tariffs. Which is still a tax, but it's a tax you only had to pay by choice. Don't drink foreign booze.

State and local taxes were, and are, still going to be needed, with the property tax being the most hated on that score (the Feds only tax the capital gains on a sale).

So, do I think there should be no taxes? No. There are some legitimate functions of government that we do need to pay for.

But, not everything is a federal case, as the saying goes. The best government is still a local one, where I can keep an eye on it, and kick the buggers out more easily if they misbehave. I can't get rid of Sen. "Porkbarrel" Byrd.

Overall, there is plenty of room for reform of the whole tax system, and taxes should be as low as possible. I don't subscribe to the position that somebody in D.C. knows how to better spend your money than you do.

Sadly, I don't think this is the election cycle for it. We missed our best chance back in the 90's.

[Stalins Organ]

That's a nice myth - there were plenty of excise taxes in the USA on domestic goods before WW1, so not that much choice involved at all. Eg see the Whiskey Rebellion in 1795!

The 16th amendment was not requierd to allow income tax on wages - you could have been taxed jsut as much now on wages without it - there was income tax in the 1860's to pay for the civil war and not repealed until 1872.

Further income tax was proposed in 1894 - but foundered because it was to be on income from property (rent, dividends or interest) as well as wages.

The trouble with this was that the constitution says that a direct tax must be proportioned on the basis of states' census populations - and this made property income impossible to tax, but Congress didn't want to tax only wages - which would be clearly unfair and a major distortion.

So the 16th amendment exempted all income taxes from the apportionment requirement, allowing incoem tax on revenue generated by property. It became part of the constitution in 1913.

Seems like quite a sensible amendment to me as it shares the income tax burden wider.

But it seems you've come around to the realization that we're not headed for bankruptcy, we've just have some hard budgeting decisions to make.

nope. You're headed for bankruptcy until those decisions are made - haven't been made yet, so still heading there. sure there's tiem to turn it around.......but I don't see you guys having the collective courage to do what is required any time soon.

[Lars]

That's a nice myth

What part of "largely paid for" didn't you understand?

I tried to give the short version.

[Sombra]

I think capitalism will survive.

Hopefully the lesson we learn is:

- You need rules in the game (economics) to have fun

- cheating and no rules destroy the game faster than anything else (naked short selling + lies + insidertrading etc)

- dont expect anybody to show any morale or ethic restrain : look at the recompensations bankers still recieve this year.

[Stalins Organ]

What part of "largely paid for" didn't you understand?

The bit where that wasn't what I was talking about - I was pointing out that there were plenty of internal excise taxes that could not be avoided - specificaly on hooch, which was the example you used of how to avoid taxation by consuming the domestic product.

and the bit where the 16th amendment was a great evil that allowed income taxes to exist where they didn't before.

[Lars]

The bit where that wasn't what I was talking about

Oh I see, we're going to have the conversation you want to have instead of the one costard and I were having when you jumped in...

If you want to try and teach me something about the US tax code and it's history, good luck. I've been filling out the 1040 long form for thirty years, along with a couple of schedules.

[Stalins Organ]

If you want your conversation to be private then I suggest you don't post on a public forum.

I addressed points that were in your post that were wrong - and easily shown so.

Seems I have plenty of good luck then - filling out tax forms and knowing history are 2 different things - something else I've been albe to edumacate you on.

i'm having a good day here.

[costard]

I think capitalism will survive.

Hopefully the lesson we learn is:

- You need rules in the game (economics) to have fun

- cheating and no rules destroy the game faster than anything else (naked short selling + lies + insidertrading etc)

- dont expect anybody to show any morale or ethic restrain : look at the recompensations bankers still recieve this year.

I believe you have an unwarrantedly cheerful view of the world, Sombra. From here, it's looking like it'll take four or five years for the banks to figure out who owes what, to whom, by which time it really wont matter.

[Lars]

If you want your conversation to be private then I suggest you don't post on a public forum.

I addressed points that were in your post that were wrong - and easily shown so.

Seems I have plenty of good luck then - filling out tax forms and knowing history are 2 different things - something else I've been albe to edumacate you on.

i'm having a good day here.

Right up until the typos.

[Wilhammer]

On NPR this morning, I heard a great commentary suggesting that the Feds really botched it by going all panicky with the bail out package and screaming for it, thus making it worse than it was - fear driven over reaction caused far more damage than just let the market sort itself out.

The suggested best course would of been to have the Republicans let the market correct itself as they said before it should - self regulation due poor decision making.

So, the Socialist aspects of our Neo-Capitalism is from the Neo-Cons. Rather ironic.

The best part was her quote from Napoleon:

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."