Piracy in PC gaming-Another BIG victim (old news)

[Vomitmeister]

That Stardock Bill of Rights cracks me up. I was looking at their Sins of a Solar Empire site a couple of weeks ago. They had a link on their main page to a thread on their forum dealing with a customer's complaint. This customer lives in Australia's Outback and only could get dial-up access with speeds around 26kbs. His complaint was that in order to get the patches for the game, he needed to download some custom download manager and IE. He also complained that nowhere on the box does it state these requirements.

First the fanboys trashed him. Then, the developer got on there and basically did the same, including banning him. I was pretty disgusted with how they handled the whole situation.

[cabal23]

The only reason Madden is not being supported on PC is because playing sports games on pc's is ridiculous. Could you imagine playing CMSF on an XBOX? Having a background in the retail and production part of the gaming industry, I can honestly say if Madden was truly a piracy risk, wouldn't every EA PC game be in that same predicament? The number of people who play Madden on PC is like 1% of the entire population that plays Madden. While you make great arguments, This is a huge case of EA covering up the fact that no cares about sports games on PC. EA is also struggling a bit this year. Piracy isn't nearly the monster people make it out to be. It is nowhere near what it used to be and now that consoles are on the scene, it exists only mainly in the PC arena. PC gamers are usually smarter than your average gamer, so piracy is bound to happen. But real adult gamers will pay for a product if they believe in the company, I think most people who game with BF products purchased their copy and understands that if we don't support it, it's products will go away.

[luderbamsen]

That Stardock Bill of Rights cracks me up. I was looking at their Sins of a Solar Empire site a couple of weeks ago. They had a link on their main page to a thread on their forum dealing with a customer's complaint. This customer lives in Australia's Outback and only could get dial-up access with speeds around 26kbs. His complaint was that in order to get the patches for the game, he needed to download some custom download manager and IE. He also complained that nowhere on the box does it state these requirements.

First the fanboys trashed him. Then, the developer got on there and basically did the same, including banning him. I was pretty disgusted with how they handled the whole situation.

Not that I want to turn this thread into a Stardock discussion, but I went looking for that thread (turns out there are several). The ones I found had the Stardock staff handle things pretty sensibly, moreso than I would have. I mean, the guy is basically blaming Stardock for him having a 26k connection (which is what you get when you live out in the middle of nowhere). I bet it doesn't say on the back of the box either that putting the disc in the dishwasher can make it unreadable. Sheesh, what a tool.

Piracy isn't nearly the monster people make it out to be. It is nowhere near what it used to be

Well, in the spirit of fairness (and also my original point) we don't really know. It doesn't really matter if the industry react as if piracy is the end of civilisation as we know it or a minor inconvenience. In both cases it is based on assumptions.

[Redwolf]

There are ways of tracking the number of pirated downloads. Some are fairly accurate, others are not. But nobody - and I mean absolutely nobody - has the faintest clue how many would have bought the game instead.

Of course, pirates will tell you that nobody would really have bought the game anyway. And anti-pirates will tell you the opposite. But among those who actually try to find out (what I call "the intellectually honest"), the estimate (note, "estimate" not "solid number") varies between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 1 million. With a pirate download number for Crysis given at 10 million, that means that estimated loss in sales is between 1 million and 1000.

Right. There are a lot of kids that just download every game. It's dead easy, so why not. And the scripts that fetch every game fetch games multiple times when they are posted under different names.

It's just easier to preemptively get everything. Then, when they are in the mood for a game they go and pick one instead of picking first and then download.

Even leaving money aside, they wouldn't even have time to even fire up every single one of them, since although the copy protection might have been cracked you still have to waive some magic chicken to fire up the game.

So, before you even go and evaluate the question "how many of these game would have been payed for if they weren't downloaded"...

... you gotta ask "how many of these downloaded game get fired up even once?".

[Wilhammer]

"So, before you even go and evaluate the question "how many of these game would have been payed for if they weren't downloaded"...

... you gotta ask "how many of these downloaded game get fired up even once?".

---------------

Yep. I know a guy who downloads EVERYTHING he can - Movies, Software, Games, etc, and he might of actually looked or played 1% of the stuff.

I am like, why? 'Because I can'.

"You will never play this stuff, so why bother?"

" I don't know; I guess I am just a digital pack rat."

[Redwolf]

That reminds me of when I was buying pretty much every major game that came out and never played them, looking for the next Wing Commander.

My then-girlfriend asked me why I don't play them and I replied "it's bad enough I wasted my money on this, I don't want to waste my time, too".

[Vomitmeister]

Not that I want to turn this thread into a Stardock discussion, but I went looking for that thread (turns out there are several). The ones I found had the Stardock staff handle things pretty sensibly, moreso than I would have. I mean, the guy is basically blaming Stardock for him having a 26k connection (which is what you get when you live out in the middle of nowhere). I bet it doesn't say on the back of the box either that putting the disc in the dishwasher can make it unreadable. Sheesh, what a tool.

I didn't get the impression he was blaming Stardock. I got the impression that he bought the game with the impression that he would be able to download updates somewhere with a fast connection, maybe at a library, like many games. The developer failed to note this on the packaging. I agree that he was a tad more pissed off than he should have been, but I felt the developer should have handled it a bit differently. Maybe empathize with him a bit, admit they probably could have added some wording to the box and that would have been the end of it.

The part I find funny is that the bill of rights states no download manager needed, yet they develop one that is a requirement. And, from what the complainer said, doesn't offer a restart ability, which would have satisfied him.

[Mord]

The funniest thing to me about consoles (and you could even argue this about Ipods, and cell phones, and Black Berries) is that all these guys are doing is reselling the computer back to you, a piece at a time. Each new feature is basically what your comp has been doing since like, 97...Wow, Xbox can be played online, Wow, you can IM, Wow, you can talk, Wow, you can email...LOL every generation they make another 600 bucks piece mealin' you with what you already have. It just looks different.

I do agree though, they both have their strengths and weaknesses, game wise.

Mord.

[Herr Kruger]

Yes, you have to, because I don't find it obvious at all. How you come to think that what two publishers (each about one quadrillion times bigger than Battlefront) are experiencing NOW is in any way related to our decision to make a new CM engine from scratch FIVE YEARS AGO is beyond me. I haven't read the thread you linked to but I am sure that Steve explained our motivation to leave CMx1 behind (it was absolutely outdated by 2004) and move to a new engine which will serve us (and you, the player) very well for the next bunch of years. No conspiracy involved

If you ask me, the success of the console can be attributed to just one thing: marketing. Throw enough money at advertising something over and over, make it nice and shiny, and people will start buying it. Even if, looking at it logically, it's the most stupid thing to do: what would you say if we required you to buy a new PC (and a fairly weak one at that) each time we made a new game? Yet people do exactly this with the next gen consoles as if it was the coolest thing to do, only to re-buy and re-play the same games they already played first on the PC, then PS1, 2 and 3. That's a lot of $$$, and all you get is the same game and a few more sparkling lightning effects. Yawn.

Wow, I think you're being pretty harsh here. Marketing? Consoles and their games are great. I really don't understand the people who say PC-gaming is high class compared to console gaming any more than I understand the people who say Microsoft is better than Sony or Nintendo or vice-versa. I play both PC games and console games. I enjoy both. Sure there are differences worth noting etc. but to attribute the success of consoles to marketing is asinine.

And you don't have to buy a new console every time you buy a new game. Please. Be realistic here, how about looking at reality? You don't need to buy more RAM for it, or a new video card, or a new motherboard either. The console life-cycle is about five years. These current consoles, excepting the Wii, may very well last longer than that. So you get five years of gaming, with some great games, for what... $400 - $700 system depending on what you buy. How much is it to buy a computer that will play a great, newer game five years down the road?

Marketing?? Puh!

As for replaying the same game over and over, there is some truth to that... but PC games have a lot of the same problems. Oh wait, you went right from CMBO into CMSF didn't you? And Strategic Command? Theatre of War? Riiiight.

[Stalins Organ]

Yep Marketing.

It's something that happens in all sorts of fields.

Take, for example, figure wargaming.

Think of Flames of War - originally written by a mate of mine from many years ago. As a simulation it is pretty poor....but it's been marketed along the Games Workshop model (Rules, supplements, figures) & has become a worldwide success.

Of Field of Glory (FoG) - ancient rules that came out last year. Pretty ordinary mechanisms that have been around for decades....but made pretty with a very nice rulebook and a flash marketing campaign thanks to having a "big name" publisher (Osprey) so they're arguably the most popular rules for the era at the moment (although it's a bit more grogly a market than FOW's WW2 seems to be and there's been a lot of resistance from existing rules and significant competition from other new sets)

But the point is that in each case the market has pretty much been told what it SHOULD like, and much of the market believes it and purchases accordingly.

This should not be news for anyone!!

[Herr Kruger]

Lol, silly I say. People play what they like, not what they are told to like. If people made changes to a game system, maybe they made some good changes so a larger number of people would play it...? Is that not possible? And that *gasp* people liked it?

[luderbamsen]

The only three hard facts we have are these:

1: At least for AAA "mainstream" titles, games sell much more on consoles than on PC

2: Pirated PC games are downloaded in huge numbers, far exceeding the number of games sold.

3: DRM does not prevent games from being cracked. It sometimes prevent games from being cracked on release day.

We also have three assumptions:

A: Most (or at least a lot) would buy a legit copy if a pirated one wasn't availible.

B: DRM and other anti-piracy measures (like the recent legally/etically dubious blanket lawsuit in the UK by Codemasters, Atari and others) does not turn off legitimate buyers.

C: DRM (such as StarForce and SecuRom, install limits, online verification required to play e.c.t.) prevent a significant number of gamers from pirating games.

Yet most of the industry act based on these assumptions.

Why couldn't EA's Moore say?: "We're just not selling enough PC version of Madden for it to be profitable. Has PC piracy something to do with that? Probably, but bottom line is we don't sell enough copies, so we're giving the PC version a rest"

Why couldn't CryTek's Yerli say?: "It's a problem making a AAA game, pushing the technological envelope, like we did with Crysis when we only sell 1 million copies (or 1.5 million which is the latest number I heard). Has piracy something do do with it? Probably, since it was downloaded illegally 10 million times, but we can't know for sure of course. What we do know is that such games well very well on console, so we'll probably/certainly make a console version next time around. We can't support frontier tech development if we don't sell enough copies".

Instead I hear "oh no, it's the pirates! it's the pirates! wah! wah!". Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! I'm sick and tired of hearing this over and over again, and I'm just fed up. Get a grip and start dealing with the proble. DRM isn't dealing with the problem. It's being stuck in the same rut. This course has already failed the music industry miserably so try something else for crying out loud.

It would be easy to like Brad Wardell and Stardock because they're being nice to gamers and not pestering them with DRM. But not implementing DRM is just inaction. Any idiot can do that. What is actually great about Stardock (and BFC by extension since the're operating in a very similar fashion) is that they're doing this to sell more games and make more money. Instead of the usual head-up-your-butt pirate hunt, they look for solutions that make more money for them.

I didn't get the impression he was blaming Stardock. I got the impression that he bought the game with the impression that he would be able to download updates somewhere with a fast connection, maybe at a library, like many games. The developer failed to note this on the packaging. I agree that he was a tad more pissed off than he should have been, but I felt the developer should have handled it a bit differently. Maybe empathize with him a bit, admit they probably could have added some wording to the box and that would have been the end of it.

The part I find funny is that the bill of rights states no download manager needed, yet they develop one that is a requirement. And, from what the complainer said, doesn't offer a restart ability, which would have satisfied him.

I got the distinct impression he was annoying whiner and I wouldn't stand for it either, but all in the eye of the beholder I guess so fair enough

The download manager point of the Gamer's Bill of Rights was about not having to go online and connect to the downloader every time you want to play a game (at the very least when playing single player). The restart ability (when downloading on an unreliable dialup connection) is a good point though and would IMO be a worthwhile addition, but hardly a dealbreaker.

[MeatEtr]

I betcha luderbamsen is a game pirate. Anybody wanna bet?

Seriously though, anybody hear about this encryption chip that is being put on motherboards in most of the computers that are coming out now. It's called TPM, or Trusted Platform Module, which will authorize games from your computer's motherboard. Some details here.

But the age old saying of "If you can build it I can break it" still holds true for any protection scheme. For every white hat you have out there, a thousand black hats crack with the speed of a cheetah. Each one wanting to be the first to crack a piece of code and imprint their names in the hallows of geekdom.

[JDski]

I have a question. Did the profit margins go up or down on PC games since the early '90 before consoles really came into the picture as a competitor to the PC market?

I'm sure it is more costly to produce PC games now, and even with consoles sucking up some of the market, and the loss due to pirating, hasn't the dramatic increase in PC's worldwide offset this?

I don't think there will ever be a problem with a loss of a profitable market for PC games. The problem is that developers have been given a more lucrative media to sell games on so they've taken the easy road.

[Stalins Organ]

Lol, silly I say. People play what they like, not what they are told to like.

Bilions of marketing dollars worldwide say that people are quire susceptible to beign told what they like.

I imagine there's plenty of studies backing it up too.

Or...we could go with your gut instinct that it doesn't work....:cool:

[Herr Kruger]

Bilions of marketing dollars worldwide say that people are quire susceptible to beign told what they like.

I imagine there's plenty of studies backing it up too.

Or...we could go with your gut instinct that it doesn't work....:cool:

Um, I did not say that marketing has no effect. I'm quite aware marketing/advertising has a large influence. What I said was to attribute the rise of the console to primarily (solely?) marketing was silly, in my opinion. Did the PC market do the same? Is the reason PC gaming was so hot for so long due primarily to marketing, and people being told it was fun, or that it actually was fun?? Answer me that?

I noticed Moon hasn't been back to comment. Especially the laughable comment about people coming back to play the same things over and over but only in the console market... sure, the PC market never did that... LOL! BFC sure as hell does.

Anyway, I know BFC has been trying to tell people CMSF is fun, but that hasn't worked out in a lot of cases either, has it??

[Moon]

I noticed Moon hasn't been back to comment.

Herr Kruger, I didn't come back to comment because you didn't say anything worthy of commenting or discussing. Your gut feeling is just that - what you feel in your gut, and I don't have time nor the interest to talk about that.

Especially the laughable comment about people coming back to play the same things over and over but only in the console market... sure, the PC market never did that... LOL! BFC sure as hell does.

So it's laughable - and yet the same happens in the PC market? So which is it? It can't be both.

As for what BFC does... well, judging from the posts about how we should stick with CMx1 apparently we don't do the same thing over and over again

Anyway, I know BFC has been trying to tell people CMSF is fun, but that hasn't worked out in a lot of cases either, has it??

Based on... your gut feeling again? And what does this have to do with what this thread is about? Or is it the same non-logic again - consoles are fun because CMSF isn't fun? Or what?

[Herr Kruger]

Herr Kruger, I didn't come back to comment because you didn't say anything worthy of commenting or discussing. Your gut feeling is just that - what you feel in your gut, and I don't have time nor the interest to talk about that.

So it's laughable - and yet the same happens in the PC market? So which is it? It can't be both.

As for what BFC does... well, judging from the posts about how we should stick with CMx1 apparently we don't do the same thing over and over again

Based on... your gut feeling again? And what does this have to do with what this thread is about? Or is it the same non-logic again - consoles are fun because CMSF isn't fun? Or what?

Your comment is laughable BECAUSE you seemed to be saying it ONLY happens in the console world. Get it? Is CMBO essentially not the same game, at it's core, as CMBB and CMAK? Yet you claim people only come back to the same games happily in the console world. Wait, of course, BTS/BFC made those games KNOWING they wouldn't sell as well. What about your other games? Strategic Command? Theatre of War? CMSF and Marines?? Sequels, improvements just like what happens in the console world. How about a comment on that? Not a gut feeling, crystal clear EVIDENCE the SAME THING happens in PC, by your own company no less. I noticed you glossed over those details and later claimed there was nothing of substance in my post. LOL! Yeah, I am convinced.

Anyway, I was responding to you in this thread. Sorry it got off-topic, everyone.

[luderbamsen]

I betcha luderbamsen is a game pirate. Anybody wanna bet?

I'll bet a billion dollars and your house that I'm not

I was tempted though. A few years back, I hit a really bad string of games. Never mind that the gameplay was lousy, but most games were buggy to the point of being unplayable. There was no interaction with the community and the developers either couldn't or wouldn't fix them. Patches solved nothing, if they appeared at all.

I was at the point were I contemplated that if they weren't going to provide me with working games when I paid for them I didn't see any point in paying in the first place. It's very hard to keep the moral high ground when you're getting shafted over and over. Now I'm glad I didn't go down that road. Instead, I research as game as carefully as I can before I buy, including playing it at a gaming cafe if possible (which is rarely the case with the kind of niche games I prefer). I only go in blind when it's a developer I trust to fix any problems that might be, like BFC.

[Moon]

Look, Herr Kruger, I am not sure who you are debating with, but it's not me.

Your comment is laughable BECAUSE you seemed to be saying it ONLY happens in the console world.

(emphasis added)

I never said that. You're arguing with an imaginary Moon.

Get it? Is CMBO essentially not the same game, at it's core, as CMBB and CMAK? Yet you claim people only come back to the same games happily in the console world.

No, your imaginary friend does that apparently. I said the opposite. Consoles are just another way of "marketinganizing" - making you believe that you really really need something which you really don't, or making you forget that you already own it - and they're taking the whole thing to yet another level. Maximize the profit, baby! Not only do we sell you the exact same game engine in a new shiny box, we also add a completely new computer to the package... for JUST $399!!! :eek: Whooaaa... buy buy buy...

Wait, of course, BTS/BFC made those games KNOWING they wouldn't sell as well. What about your other games? Strategic Command? Theatre of War? CMSF and Marines?? Sequels, improvements just like what happens in the console world. How about a comment on that?

Sure. Marines costs you $25. TOW2 will cost your $35. SC2 expansions cost $25 each. The next time you're going to buy Call of Duty 15, you're going to pay $499.

(For the record, and because you keep harping on Battlefront as if all we'd do is rehash the same game engine, although we're probably the only ones in the wargaming market that do in fact take the risk to innovate: CMSF which was coded from the ground up in 5 years - a COMPLETELY NEW ENGINE - cost you $45 only.)

Not a gut feeling, crystal clear EVIDENCE the SAME THING happens in PC, by your own company no less. I noticed you glossed over those details and later claimed there was nothing of substance in my post. LOL! Yeah, I am convinced.

You found evidence for something that was posted by someone else, but not me. Congratulations.

I don't know what you're convinced of but I didn't try to convince you of anything either. It's all just opinions I may be the only person left on earth who does not own a console, so of course I'm just as biased as you.

[Herr Kruger]

That's just it, I am not biased. I have played and owned both for years. I'm glad you admit to your bias, though. I don't and won't maintain that console or PC-gaming is superior to the other one, ever. Just different. Sure, some people may choose to like one over the other. That is fine by me, that is their choice.

Your original post:

"f you ask me, the success of the console can be attributed to just one thing: marketing. Throw enough money at advertising something over and over, make it nice and shiny, and people will start buying it. Even if, looking at it logically, it's the most stupid thing to do: what would you say if we required you to buy a new PC (and a fairly weak one at that) each time we made a new game? Yet people do exactly this with the next gen consoles as if it was the coolest thing to do, only to re-buy and re-play the same games they already played first on the PC, then PS1, 2 and 3. That's a lot of $$$, and all you get is the same game and a few more sparkling lightning effects. Yawn"

You sure didn't mention this also happens in PC-gaming, did you? I say everything you say in there is equally or almost as equally applicable to PC-gaming. You are NOT required to buy a new system for every game in the console world. You still didn't address how much it takes to buy a PC and maintain it for games for five years, either, did you? As I've said before, PC-gaming doesn't have marketing? People aren't bombarded by the exact same "new and shiny" attitude in PC-gaming? New video cards! New processors! Faster, better, more RAM! Yawn.

Anyway, your weak attempts at deflecting the argument are just that. If you want to claim I'm arguing with an imaginary person by addressing items directly from your posts, well.. go ahead, I guess.

And I'm not trying to bash Battlefront. Just trying to show that you do the same thing. I have loved some of your games to death and they were great. That's great CMSF only costs $45, but how much does the PC cost to play it on? And what about other PCs to play higher-end games?? You mention the cost of consoles but not PCs... strange.

Anyway, I get the feeling neither of us will budge, so I'll leave it alone.

Herr Kruger

[MeatEtr]

Speaking of Call of Duty, I just uninstalled CoD4 because it's been playing very poorly lately. I'm guessing it had something to do with a punkbuster update. All my other games are playing fine.

Anyways, I go to reinstall and guess what, yup, my keycode is lost. Even though I still have the gamebox, manual, and dvd sleeve. So I'm guessing the keycode came on a postcard which is nowhere to be found = F**king Bullsh*t! :mad::mad:

So I went to the Activision site and sure enough they have no keys to give out, no matter what the circumstances are. So I figure what the hell, I'm gonna try and hunt down a keycode generator. After all, I did spend $50 on the game. I did manage to download one but it ended up being an ad for a some kind of a loan agency, so it says. It was asked me for all my info and how much I wanted to loan out, lol.

Ah well, life goes on. Since the mad smileys just don't do the job properly, here ya go.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

an interesting blog entry: Talking to 'Pirates'

a game developer asked pirates to tell him why they pirate his games.

the survey led him to change some things, in order to make more money:

1. No more DRM
   
   
2. Better, longer demos
   
   
3. Dropped the prices
   
   
4. Improve the games, make them more polished
   

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i have lost a number of games because of all sorts of DRM failures. i learned the lesson years ago:

1) buy the game

2) download the torrent

[Wilhammer]

i have lost a number of games because of all sorts of DRM failures. i learned the lesson years ago:

1) buy the game

2) download the torrent

And sometimes in reverse, in order to Demo the Demoless.

BTW I got my sons retail copy of COD4 to work with a nocd patch and a key generator after losing the code too.