Piracy in PC gaming-Another BIG victim (old news)

[Lt Bull]

It comes as a complete shock to me to have just discovered that EA will not be makling a PC version of Madden 09. Appaerently this bit of news had passed me by when it was first officiallly announced back in April this year. Having basically owned every Madden release on PC and looking forward to 09, I am very dissapointed.

A link about it here: http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/870/870722p1.html

Disappointment aside, what is most interesting to note are the reasons given by EA as to why the PC platform has been dropped while all other platforms are supported.

EA Sports boss Peter Moore explains:

Piracy's a big issue on the PC. I can't turn a blind eye to the fact that it's very difficult for us...and we lose money making a game. At some point, I have an obligation not to bring out products that lose money.

Further, the concerns of Peter Moore followed up the concerns of another game developer, Cevat Yerli, president of Crytek Studios (who made the game Crysis), who has said that piracy is the biggest threat to PC gaming. Link here -> http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/870/870416p1.html

We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis......I believe that's the core problem of PC gaming, piracy. To the degree PC gamers that pirate games inherently destroy the platform. Similar games on consoles sell factors of 4 [to] 5 more. It was a big lesson for us and I believe we won't have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future. We are going to support PC, but not exclusive anymore.

Hmm, very interstesting words when you compare it to the thoughts of BFC expressed on this very issue when I raised it with regards to piracy and the demise of the CMx1 franchise in this thread about a year ago-> http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=76290

BFCs bluntly addressed my views on the influence of piracy as follows:

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I think it has been thoroughly demonstrated that your opening post was as wrong as just about everything else you posted.

Piracy had nothing to do with anything...Trying to explain away the obvious because you don't like it isn't a very productive use of anybody's time.

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Again, you can ramble on about whatever you like, but you're just wasting virtual space in doing so. You're premises in this thread are absolutely contrary to reality. Sure, you are entitled to an opinion, but it is just that... an opinion. It holds no value beyond that.

The irony of it all was that I actaually referred to and used the Madden franchise in my post as an example .

Originally posted by Lt Bull:

Unlike the Total War Series or even the Madden football series, BTS/BFC do not know how to repackage the basic same game concept and make it more commerically succesful or at least commercially sustainable than previous releases.

Originally posted by Lt Bull

I used the Madden and Total War franchises as an example. No sign of either of those titles going bust, even though they still both basically deliver the same gaming concept each time with a few enhancements here and there.

Haha...well, what do you know? It seems even the HUGELY popular, successful and mighty Madden PC franchise/concept wasn't as "safe" from piracy after all (let alone becoming a boring rehashed consumer product that peopel had gotten bored of and had to be abandoned by it's developer ), despite it having some form of anti-piracy copy protection and unique keys for online multiplayer gameplay.

It's funny how differently developers of sucessful gaming concepts/franchises consider PC game piracy to be relevant/irrelevant to their commercial/business sustainability. Chalk and cheese really.

Lt Bull

[Moon]

Err... not sure what your point is? That we don't think piracy is a problem?

EA and Crytek have confirmed what I have been preaching on this board for some time now in response to people complaining about the use of a DRM system to enforce our End User License. We're very aware that piracy is a serious issue. It may not be the only reason why the PC platform as a whole is struggling, but it's definitely one of the major aspects.

[Redwolf]

How do all these companies know the number of pirated copies, anyway?

[Speedy]

I think with regard to EA and the madden franchise is that there PC sales have been dropping, not because of piracy, but simply because these games (as do most sporting games) simply play much better on consoles. For myself sporting games are about the only type I buy for the 2 consoles I own ( have madden 08 on Wii and 09 collectors edition on PS3).

[Lt Bull]

Err... not sure what your point is? That we don't think piracy is a problem?

Just the complete stark contrast between the forthright dismissive attitude BFC showed towards any inkling/suggestion at all that perhaps piracy was even a minor issue when explaining the demise of the CMx1 series within the thread I referenced:

eg.

Piracy had nothing to do with anything...You're premises in this thread are absolutely contrary to reality

...when compared to the diametrically opposed reality as seen by two other, much bigger game developers in similar situations when explaining the reason why they had to abandon what was othersise a successful PC game, state that it was primarily due to piracy.

Did I really have to point that out?

Maybe we just can't trust what any developers tell us. :confused:

Speedy...I kind of agree about sports games on PC vs console to a degree. I am like you. I have long known that the PC version of Madden kinda seemed neglected especially when the NextGen graphics of the latest consoles started being showcased.

The only reason I bought the old Sega Megadrive and the original Playstation was for the Madden game. When it went to PC and was able to be played multiplayer online, I switched to PC. I am now forced in to being tempted in to getting a PS3 just to sample out NextGen Madden 09, but that won't come till I get a HD TV.

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder if it is not in the cards for PC gamers to begin to suffer a little of the drought that Mac gamers have been suffering for a decade or more now. I'm not trying to venture an opinion, not even obliquely, since it's been a while since I even tried to follow gaming trends. Just throwing the question out to see what people think.

Michael

[SSgt Viljuri]

Hardware and software related technical or legal solutions aside for a moment, PC games should be marketed differently, an aimed to different demographical groups than Console games.

Favoring PCs and the whole culture associated with them instead of Consoles, or iPods, iPhones or iMacs, the freaky cult-like oddball stuff bordering Scientology and New Age, is a reliable societal indicator about the potential consumer in question, PC-users tend to be productive and intelligent members of their societies, whereas Console-users are just kids or somewhat immature adults, slackers, who can be entertained by farts, quite basically.

Seriousness to a point of "Englishness" is not a good thing what comes to hobbies and stuff, but are Consoles oriented games lowering the bar too much, into a point where potential customers in their right senses reject the Console-based 'Fart-o-Manias' AND their adaptations to PC-environment?

Majority of 'PC games' today are designed for Consoles at the first place, and not vice versa.

For a game developer and marketer, PC-games should reflect those differing choices of what people are doing at the first place, what ever the marketing trickery. Of course there are illegal substance abusing types on the PC-side as well, and they are partly responsible for some of these problems industrial property right holders and game developers are encountering. But to overcome these 'free riders', majority of PC-games should be designed from the beginning as the works of art, treats for the intellectually oriented minds, challenging simulations and alike, quite simply, standards must be higher, regarding the goals game developers set for themselves.

PC gaming should be a part of the High Culture whereas Console Gaming is an event in the Special Olympics, and not that it is relevant in most instances, but in a similar vein, Mac gaming is a part of the "I want to believe movement' and could be interpreted by using parapsychology.

[Moon]

...when compared to the diametrically opposed reality as seen by two other, much bigger game developers in similar situations when explaining the reason why they had to abandon what was othersise a successful PC game, state that it was primarily due to piracy.

Did I really have to point that out?

Yes, you have to, because I don't find it obvious at all. How you come to think that what two publishers (each about one quadrillion times bigger than Battlefront) are experiencing NOW is in any way related to our decision to make a new CM engine from scratch FIVE YEARS AGO is beyond me. I haven't read the thread you linked to but I am sure that Steve explained our motivation to leave CMx1 behind (it was absolutely outdated by 2004) and move to a new engine which will serve us (and you, the player) very well for the next bunch of years. No conspiracy involved

If you ask me, the success of the console can be attributed to just one thing: marketing. Throw enough money at advertising something over and over, make it nice and shiny, and people will start buying it. Even if, looking at it logically, it's the most stupid thing to do: what would you say if we required you to buy a new PC (and a fairly weak one at that) each time we made a new game? Yet people do exactly this with the next gen consoles as if it was the coolest thing to do, only to re-buy and re-play the same games they already played first on the PC, then PS1, 2 and 3. That's a lot of $$$, and all you get is the same game and a few more sparkling lightning effects. Yawn.

[luderbamsen]

It comes as a complete shock to me to have just discovered that EA will not be makling a PC version of Madden 09. Appaerently this bit of news had passed me by when it was first officiallly announced back in April this year. Having basically owned every Madden release on PC and looking forward to 09, I am very dissapointed.

Further, the concerns of Peter Moore followed up the concerns of another game developer, Cevat Yerli, president of Crytek Studios (who made the game Crysis), who has said that piracy is the biggest threat to PC gaming.

Old news indeed. EA and CryTek wants a piece of the console pie. It would reflect positive on the two gentlemen if they fessed up and just admitted that they want to make games for consoles because they can sell many more copies that way. That's just good business practice and nobody should blame them for it. I'm quite frankly getting a bit tired of this pirate whinery.

How do all these companies know the number of pirated copies, anyway?

There are ways of tracking the number of pirated downloads. Some are fairly accurate, others are not. But nobody - and I mean absolutely nobody - has the faintest clue how many would have bought the game instead.

Of course, pirates will tell you that nobody would really have bought the game anyway. And anti-pirates will tell you the opposite. But among those who actually try to find out (what I call "the intellectually honest"), the estimate (note, "estimate" not "solid number") varies between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 1 million. With a pirate download number for Crysis given at 10 million, that means that estimated loss in sales is between 1 million and 1000.

EA and Crytek have confirmed what I have been preaching on this board for some time now in response to people complaining about the use of a DRM system to enforce our End User License. We're very aware that piracy is a serious issue. It may not be the only reason why the PC platform as a whole is struggling, but it's definitely one of the major aspects.

Your DRM doesn't work. Your games are readily availible as pirate downloads*. The question is not how many additional sales you make because of DRM, because the answer is "zero". The real question is how many sales you loose because of annoying DRM.

[edit]I also find it relevant to bring up this:

The Gamer’s Bill of Rights

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don’t work with their computers for a full refund.

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game’s release.

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won’t install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Courtesy of Stardock's Brad Wardell.

Source: gamasutra.com, Link: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20027

[/edit]

*) For the record, I do NOT pirate games myself, and I do NOT condone piracy. It's dishonest (not to mention outright criminal), and mooching off the work of developers and investment risk of publishers, as well as us honest gamers who pay for what we play. I'm not even comfortable saying it out loud like this, but it is a key point in the piracy/anti-piracy measures debate and besides those who pirate games undoubtedly know anyway.

[Moon]

Your DRM doesn't work.

It works just great. The pirated versions are all from retail versions of our games which are not using our DRM. Theatre of War, not available in retail for months after our online release, only started appearing on pirate sites after the launch into retail.

The real question is how many sales you loose because of annoying DRM.

Unlike you I have the luxury to fire up our accounting software at look at the figures. Hmm... yup, works out perfectly fine, thank you.

DRMs are annoying everyone(*). No one is more annoying by them than us. WE have to deal with the issues that come with enforcing our EULA on a DAILY basis. It costs time and money that could be spent better elsewhere. But it's not like we woke up one day with the decision to annoying our paying customers and ourselves because we have nothing better to do. Those that (unlike you according to your footnote) think that piracy is perfectly fine have forced us to do it as a means to survive.

The affected game was T-72, by the way, which was released by us WITHOUT ANY TYPE OF COPY PROTECTION. We have found more than 30,000 copies floating around various BitTorrents in one week (through a service specialized in this type of investigation that is used by many big publishers, too). Needless to say that our sales at the time were a tiny fraction of that, and, what is more important in this context, much less than any other game we have published. T-72 never really bounced back. Sad.

(*)And out of the pack, our DRM is the least annoying of all because it gives you all the freedom to do as you like as long as you don't have two games active at the same time.

[mylgas]

[Moon]

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don’t work with their computers for a full refund.

We encourage people to try the demo that is available for all our games BEFORE they buy. (Having said that, we do refund if someone really has no way to make a game run).

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

So Stardock doesn't patch?

3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game’s release.

We patch, and not only to fix the inevitable bugs but also to add new features.

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

We don't need any of those to play. Download Managers are recommend for downloading large files but not needed if you have a fast connection.

5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

Check.

6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won’t install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

Correct. The use of eLicense is mentioned throughout our entire site and in the End User License. Besides, it's not using any hidden drivers nor potentially harmful software.

7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Yup, for 365 days. Downloads/bandwidth are not free.

8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

We don't treat anyone as potential criminal. But we have a right to ensure that the End User License we sell our software with is respected.

9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

None of our games does that.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Our games do not require a CD to be in drive.

[RSColonel_131st]

PC gaming should be a part of the High Culture whereas Console Gaming is an event in the Special Olympics, and not that it is relevant in most instances, but in a similar vein, Mac gaming is a part of the "I want to believe movement' and could be interpreted by using parapsychology.

Sig Material here. Not that I dislike Console or Mac Gamers.

Still think that big publishers are just using Piracy as a cheap excuse to produce more console games, which are less challenging to develop and test, sadly often also less challenging on the brain. The industry wants to make big bucks quick. Nothing wrong with that, but blaming on piracy alone... Oblivion was a AAA title without any copy protection and sold very well, so obviously it can be done.

[luderbamsen]

I didn't really want to make this a discussion of BFC's DRM, but more on principle. I actually feel a little guilty picking on you, since clearly you're not the bad apple of the industry.

But today, right now, I could probably download a pirated version of CMSF faster than I could pay for and download a legit version (or rather, someone who has actually visited a bit torrent site before could). Granted, BFC's DRM (from what I understand of it, as I haven't used it) is a far cry from such draconian measures as StarForce, regular online verification and whatnot, so it's really a bad example. Never mind on release day, how is your DRM preventing me from downloading CMSF today?

Note that I'm not dismissing piracy as a problem. I remember (or rather I've read about) the crash of the video game market back in the 80's. Why? Because we started using writeable media (tape and disc) which meant that games could be copied, illegally. I doubt much has changed since then.

OK, T-72 didn't sell. Piracy probably - or rather most likely - had something do do with it. But the thing is we don't really know. Look at two games like Crysis and Assassin's Creed. Both had very steep hardware requirements. Both had fairly tough DRM. Both had pirated copies coming out the wazoo from day one. Crysis sold one million copies. Assassins Creed sold less than 50,000 on the PC (or so a dev on the game told me). Yes, both titles undoubtedly sold less than they could have because of piracy, and no, we shouldn't expect the two games to have exactly equal sales. But twenty times[i/] as many?

My point is that the industry is making some fairly important decisions based on assumptions.

[luderbamsen]

Note: About 2); According to Brad Wardell, "finished state" does not mean perfect, but that the game will actually play out of the box, not that it is perfect in every sense (which is obviously impossible). It's mainly aimed at games that simply don't work (missions won't load, you get stuck in a wall e.c.t.). Since I haven't played it, I'll let BFC and forum members argue if this applies to CMSF or not.

Also, note that this Gamer's Bill of Rights applies to the games industry as a whole. Again, I feel a little guilty singling out BFC for the very reasons Moon mention below:

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don’t work with their computers for a full refund.

We encourage people to try the demo that is available for all our games BEFORE they buy. (Having said that, we do refund if someone really has no way to make a game run).

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

So Stardock doesn't patch?

3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game’s release.

We patch, and not only to fix the inevitable bugs but also to add new features.

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

We don't need any of those to play. Download Managers are recommend for downloading large files but not needed if you have a fast connection.

5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

Check.

6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won’t install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

Correct. The use of eLicense is mentioned throughout our entire site and in the End User License. Besides, it's not using any hidden drivers nor potentially harmful software.

7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

Yup, for 365 days. Downloads/bandwidth are not free.

8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

We don't treat anyone as potential criminal. But we have a right to ensure that the End User License we sell our software with is respected.

9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

None of our games does that.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

Our games do not require a CD to be in drive.

Don't you see? This is perfect for BFC! If anything, the Gamer's Bill of Rights just highlight what a great company you are. I'm sure you know as well as I that there are some in the industry who fail at practically all ten.

One thing though. 365 days? You're not giving your games the credit they deserve. Maybe you should talk to Brad Wardell (seriously, not a snide remark) about that.

[RSColonel_131st]

It's also worth noting that many gamers today own two or even three systems, PC + Console(s).

Expecting console ports to sell equally well on the PC is unrealistic, especially if the game plays better on a controller in front of the tv, with friends - as is typically the case with sports games.

For Crysis, what killed their sales were the hardware requirements, as well as mixing the unrealistic alien stuff into an otherwise quite tactical shooter. Bad business decisions they should blame themself for, not the pirates.

[Moon]

Never mind on release day, how is your DRM preventing me from downloading CMSF today?

Ask me again later this month when the Marines module is out

OK, T-72 didn't sell. Piracy probably - or rather most likely - had something do do with it. But the thing is we don't really know.

You mean the kind of I'll-stick-fingers-in-my-ears-and-close-my-eys don't know? Because really, what other evidence would you need to "know" than:

- all other games released before and after sell x

- T-72, released unprotected, sells y

- 30,000 illegal copies are identified on Torrents one week after release

One thing though. 365 days? You're not giving your games the credit they deserve.

I don't understand what you mean. You can re-download for a year if you like, but really you should simply make a copy of the files you download to disc or USB stick and you never have to download more than once. Another example of why our DRM is much better than any others out there. You can make as many copies as you want and even install as often as you want. No restrictions, calling home or anything in what you can do with the software (except that you can't activate it on more than two PCs at the same time).

Martin

[Moon]

Good point about people owning different platforms. If you pay premium for a console, you will attempt to justify the marketing trap you fell into by buying games for it The fact that developers today make games primarily for the console (maybe they make more money that way, or maybe they simply try to recoup the investment THEY had to make to buy a license to publish games for the console) and often bring them out first for the console makes this an easier decision, too.

Another driving factor for the console vs. the PC are the hardware and compatibility problems of the PC. Now that is the only argument for console and against PC that I personally can follow. 60-70% of tech support issues we're hit with are probably due to some PC hardware compatibility problem or other. Plug & Play long isn't.

Apparently the hardware guys are still making enough money so they can still afford to not care about common standards. Or maybe their noses are stuck too deep in the behinds of the big labels. It's hard to see the rest of the market when all you have in front of your face is the big white butt of publisher XYZ.

[MeatEtr]

- all other games released before and after sell x

- T-72, released unprotected, sells y

- 30,000 illegal copies are identified on Torrents one week after release

Martin

Damn, 30k is alot of potential money. I bought T-72 on sale from some other website, forget who it was, think it was for $10.

Not that anybody in here is saying this, but PC gaming will never die out. I get tired if hearing about how PC gaming is dieing. It never will, mostly because of two big words: INSTALLED BASE. The number of installed PCs worldwide as just having surpassed 1 billion units and at a growth rate of just under 12 percent annually, will surpass 2 billion units by early 2014. Consoles don't even compare to this and they start over at zero every 4-5yrs with the introduction of new ones. The more PCs that are in peoples homes tends to equal more game sales and the inevitable more game piracy. Grant it, majority of that installed base don't play games and are businesses.

[Michael Emrys]

Grant it, majority of that installed base don't play games and are businesses.

And some not inconsiderable portion of comps for home use are not used to play games, ever. Aside from that reservation though, I agree with you. The potential market is still huge and somebody is missing a lot of dough by ignoring it. Even if the profit margin on developing for comps is not as great, it's still a lot of bucks. Anybody who couldn't make a living on that needs lessons on how to manage their finances.

Michael

[Wolfpack]

I think you're missing a vital point here, in that you're talking about EA Sports. These people haven't put out a Madden game for PC with actual improvements in about 6 years. Their PC base consists largely of people playing in leagues, and since 2003 they've consistently made it more and more difficult to actually set up and run these leagues. Madden 03 had an online franchise available, 2004 removed this to try and get people to use their utterly crappy EASO service. That said, Madden 2004 was still a slight improvement in gameplay at least. What has improved since then? Not much other than graphics, they throw in a small feature of two every year, very few of which actually make much of a difference. I'm in two Madden leagues that still use 2004 because we refuse to continue to contribute to their complete disregard for the people who actually paid for the PC game. It's not piracy that's killing the PC game, it's their lack of effort.

I know quite a few people through the leagues that do pirate the new games each year, because being able to create a sign or some other stupid little improvement simply isn't worth paying for, but they still want to see if the gameplay is actually any better. Invariably they're disappointed, because they've ignored their serious player base to cater to the 10-12 year old twitch jockeys who enjoy throwing 60 yard bombs or running their QB every play. You used to be able to adjust the settings so it wasn't so easy to do that when playing online with sliders, but guess what? They decided that that was simply too much power for their peon users, so they removed it last year without any warning so nobody knew that the sliders (Still in the game) didn't work until people started complaining about it in their forums.

If you can't tell, I have a lot of pent up frustration that's been building up since the Football Pro series died. EA puts out crap year after year and expects people to pay for it, then blames pirates when people simply don't see the need to pay $60 for what is basically a glorified patch or roster update. I've heard that they're bringing the PC version out again next year, but I guarantee that if they don't make serious changes and improvements, they will continue to be disappointed with the sales.

[luderbamsen]

Ask me again later this month when the Marines module is out

I think we're just talking past each other. Let's just agree that there are some pretty awful DRM schemes out there and yours isn't that bad.

You mean the kind of I'll-stick-fingers-in-my-ears-and-close-my-eys don't know?

Now now, let's not get silly here. Nobody is arguing that piracy isn't a problem. I'm not even arguing that it isn't a big problem. What I'm arguing is that nobody knows how big the problem is. If "T-72" hadn't been pirated would you have sold 30 more copies? 3,000?

10,000? 30,000?

I don't understand what you mean. You can re-download for a year if you like, but really you should simply make a copy of the files you download to disc or USB stick and you never have to download more than once. Another example of why our DRM is much better than any others out there. You can make as many copies as you want and even install as often as you want. No restrictions, calling home or anything in what you can do with the software (except that you can't activate it on more than two PCs at the same time).

*shrugs* minor issue anyway. All I meant was that if you think people are seriously playing your titles for about a year you're selling yourself short, that's all.

[Wilhammer]

BTW, it is a bad idea to store anything long term on a USB Thumb Drive.

I have dealt too many times with people breaking, washing, stepping, or otherwise physically breaking them.

Get an External Hard Drive or, if you have the skills, install another HDD in your case.

---my tactic with game purchase also includes creating ISOs of the CD/DVDs and then mounting them on Virtual Drives, as needed. This keeps the originals in pristine condition, stored away---

-----------------

Now, I have to wonder - how did you get to 30,000 copies pirated? A torrent is typically only stored once on one tracker, and then you might see in the comments how many time it was downloaded. I doubt 30,000 wargamers exist that torrent. I doubt there are 30,000 wargamers, period!

A quick look at a well known Swedish Torrent site hows three torrents for T-72, only one of which has seeders, and the comment sections show only one works.

A further look shows that in EVERY case, no copy protection scheme works to prevent pirate ripping.

What's the rule on games? Don't make crap? Copy Protection is a usually an issue for some of the client base, and might even frustrate some into to Pirating a game.

And pirating is not easy for the non-technical.

One might also argue that no matter what you do, a game is going to get pirated, and if it is of a niche line, it might take a long time to get there.

Wargames hardly make it until well after publication, with some exceptions.

...I do get TV shows this way... if you want to know how I know about this. I also do IT for a living.

As for being the old 'young grog' I am, if you make a goood wargame, I will buy it - you guys deserve the money, and I need wargames, so I will pay to insure more get created.

As far as BFC is concerend, I have only the CMx1 games and TOW. I have no interest in modern stuff, and TOW dissapointed me.

--------------

Wierdly, HPS Sims seem to be the most pirated of wargames. They are not for the faint of heart, joe public will not play them, so I suspect someone has a grudge against HPS when they pirate them.

For what you get, the price HPS asks for their games is high. They must have 30 titles I am interested in, but at 50 bucks a pop...I have limited myself. Two PzCs, one Nappy game, 2 ACW games and the very dissapointing Naval Campaigns games.

My bit of research y'day to look into Moon's 30,000 statement showed most of the HPS sims are out there as torrents.

Stuff by Matrix Games and AgeOd is quite rare, though older titles do exist.

[JonS]

Let's just agree that there are some pretty awful DRM schemes out there and yours isn't that bad.

Yep. Being beaten with a small stick is so much better than being beaten with a large stick.

[RSColonel_131st]

If you can't tell, I have a lot of pent up frustration that's been building up since the Football Pro series died. EA puts out crap year after year and expects people to pay for it, then blames pirates when people simply don't see the need to pay $60 for what is basically a glorified patch or roster update. I've heard that they're bringing the PC version out again next year, but I guarantee that if they don't make serious changes and improvements, they will continue to be disappointed with the sales.

This is in a nutshell what most big publishers do with most games. Ubisoft's Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six have been going a very similar way, less brains required, less new stuff added. Ditto racing games. That's why I'll take anything EA, Ubisoft or Activision/Blizzard say about piracy and losses with a LARGE grain of salt.