On-screen Event Cues?

[c3k]

Gents,

This is yet another call to have some sort of on-screen cue when one of my units encounters incoming fire or damage/wounds. Any vehicle commander or team leader would know instantly if his vehicle or team was taking hits.

Yet, I - the game-player operating as team leader or vehicle commander - do not get this information.

I must poll every single unit every single turn and see if there has been a status change since the last turn. Sometimes I don't remember the previous turn's status: did they have 2 wounded or 3? Sometimes I plant a unit in a "safe" location only to find that 5 turns later they've taken casualties. WTF?

C'mon BF.C, speak up here. Is there ANY chance of implementing this? I don't care if it's a flashing yellow light somewhere or a detailed scroll list annunciating the unit and the hit which allows me to click on the list and instantly zoom to the unit in question. (Although that would be the slick solution!)

Any one else want to chime in?

Thanks,

Ken

[meade95]

+1 to this - For both WEGO and Real Time -

[handihoc]

Great idea, could be very useful, although with all that's going on on-screen it's easy to miss supplementary visual cues (I know from other games that I've often missed visual or text alerts on mini-screens, and only discovered the damage at turn end or Pause, which made the alerts/cues semi-redundant).

Would it be relatively easy to code/programme? I have no idea.

If it's well done it would be potentially a big plus.

[dan/california]

The single biggest improvement they could make in the interface would be to have some of this information displayed on the unit icons that they already have. Flashing red for taking casualties, flashing yellow for suppression, and some kind of signal for outgoing fire come immediately to mind. As C3K says this information would come up on the company and/or platoon com nets almost instantly.

At the current time the icons probably give us too little information about our own units, and too much about the enemies'.

[MikeyD]

Well, they DO currently have those red crosses appearing over the wounded. That's a hint that they're taking fire. Audio cues are of course distant gunfire and blood-curdling screams. And some posters even object to them. There's been discussions about providing more/better information. But pretty soon you're breaking all the rules regarding fog-of-command. Someone joked recently that for realistic radio traffic your moving squads should be hearing the commander constantly radioing in "Are you there yet?... What's taking you so long?... Are you there yet?"

[medlinke]

After playing the demo I can see this as a huge improvement. I could generally hear where the problems were arising but in a larger scenario I can imagine that pinpointing the problem before it tuns into a shooting gallery (particularly in RT, but also for WEGO).

If I find out about an engagement once I've taken casualties it's too late.

[Roter Stern]

Excellent idea! +1

Some sort of an event log would benefit the game greatly, especially if the 'detailed hits' and 'unit status' on-screen info from CMx1 is not slated to make a comeback.

[Other Means]

An event log is a no go for me, as it's got no contextual information with it. I certainly don't know my units names and how else to associate the message with it? Besides, I think it's the wrong approach as it distracts from the actual battle. You shouldn't have to read a log to know something's happening.

{Let me just say that I've been over-vocal of this idea, made an ass of myself about it in fact. Suffice to say it's not going to happen, but let me voice it because it might start debate.}

Putting more info into icons is of course a great idea but for me, I'd like to re-address what the icons actually look like and why we need them.

If you're face to face with a unit, that is it's <50m away then you don't need icons as you can see exactly what's happening, you can see them get suppressed, whether they're shooting, if they're moving etc. But if you're more than 200m (arbitrary figure) from them then the battlefield - and you're associated SA - is very sterile. It's a few loud noises and moving counters. Over 200m and you're playing a board game.

So, I'd like icons that actually get over the main items of information (movement, facing, morale, firing) you need in an engaging, intuitive way.

Therefore what I'd like is for the close units to be show as currently. All the soldiers visible, with an associated icon.

But I'd like the units beyond 200m to have an associated icon, and I'd like this icon to be a 30m high, translucent soldier figure. This could show movement by moving, facing by its facing, shooting by shooting and morale by taking cover.

It might look a bit jarring as there would be a size difference and as you got into range where you could see the soldiers proper the icon could fade out with the soldiers now being visible but I think you'd soon get used to the convention, as you do to all conventions.

If all this sounds very familiar, it's because it's the best bits of CM1 and CM2 melded together. It's the instant SA of CM1 together with the brilliant immersion of the 1 - 1 from CM2.

I think it might look a little like this (forgive the paint skills):

(I've included command lines too. Because I like command lines - they do the job instantly - much like these icons.)

You'll have to use your imagination for the translucency, but imagine seeing the ground through the icons and them looking more generic so you know it's an icon.

It gives the player the info they need instantly. You can see everything straight away and will never lose track of another firefight.

Your SA is instant, and the drama unfolding is there right in front of you, at a micro or macro (team leader or God) level.

Ideas?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Hehe, why do you even use that image? We all have it memorized by now, Andy.

[c3k]

My take, since I am started this particular thread, is that the current red crosses/screams is totally inadequate.

Run a test: place about 30 units or so (10 units per Stryker platoon), which is about a company. Have a hidden enemy somewhere on the map. Move around for about 15 turns as you approach an objective. The red-cross/scream is only noticable if you are very close to the unit in question. Let alone any yellows which may happen that turn. Now, you're obviously not inept, so you've spread your 30+ units about.

The result is what we have now. After every single action phase you must poll each and every unit and see what state they are in. If you recognize a change in state, be it pinned, more suppression, another yellow, missing someone, or a red circle somewhere - all of which MUST BE A CHANGE from the previous state, then you can replay the turn and stay focused tight on that unit.

Obviously that may mean 10 or more replays depending on the action.

Of course, it could also mean that you just never notice something. Then, when you get in your assault positions, you notice that 3 squads have lost an air guard somewhere. Huh. Must've passed an enemy position. Oh well.

Regards,

Ken

[Other Means]

Hehe, why do you even use that image? We all have it memorized by now, Andy.

I've changed it - it's now got sound contacts!

...I know, I know. I'm a pain in the arse. I just think it's a good idea, although I've officially stopped lobbying for it before I make a complete fool of myself.

People came to wargaming from all corners, table-top gaming, card games, board games. CM1 took all that and improved on it. You had the 3 amigos running round but it showed the tactics.

CM2 blows it out of the water when you're 50m away but over that you're playing with heavily armed tiddlywinks.

I don't get any immersion from that - how can I, I can't see the tactics working. I've got to go round and say "OK, he's taking fire, he's in a position to cover, he's shooting" etc. You don't get that instant tactical gestalt that you need to really give yourself up to the game.

If we could, this game would be in everyones top 5 for forever because it's all there, you just can't instantly grasp it.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I just pause and have a look round, I don't really need what you suggest. I know what's what 90% of the time anyway. I wouldn't mind your suggestion if it was easy to do. If it got in the way of my pet feature though, I'd swim the North Sea and throttle you while you slept.

[Other Means]

I just pause and have a look round, I don't really need what you suggest. I know what's what 90% of the time anyway. I wouldn't mind your suggestion if it was easy to do.

Yeah good luck with that when you've got a company on the go in heavy woods.

Even with that, has it managed to sustain your interest at CM1 levels? Because I think you're like me; it's the tactics that are interesting, and you need to see them to know what's working.

If it got in the way of my pet feature though, I'd swim the North Sea and throttle you while you slept.

Good luck with that too

In fact wake me up, I've got beer.

[c3k]

Argh. It happened AGAIN!!

Sure, heap abuse on me. Don't ever let me become your commander, but here's what I did: with my troops moving through and clearing blocks of 6 story flats, which are surrounded by high walls, I moved a pair of Bradley's into the compound to support the two assaulting squads. Other units were suppressing the contacts in the buildings. Yeah, I know, armor up too close. Off in the other quadrant I had several firefights, and two artillery strikes elsewhere. Each turn, beginning and end, I checked on my two assaulting squads (as well as a myriad of other active units). Since they did not find any enemy during the 5 minute clearing operation, I felt good. Foolish me.

Somewhere in that 5 minutes, sometime, somehow, someway, someone destroyed one of the Bradleys.

I sure wish I'd known about it when it happened.

Ken

[LongLeftFlank]

I'd agree. Moreover, in a company-sized MOUT action (as opposed to open desert) which I'm told is going to figure more prominently in CMSF/M, it's really freekin hard to tell who's getting shot where.

However, you could always include an option to toggle the "stock ticker" off, which would satisfy the "Iron Men". Or else have the accuracy and timing of the reports linked in some way to the level of C3. But that would be quite complicated to implement.

[daft]

Indeed, it would be very beneficial to have some sort of feedback on what is happening to your men. Perhaps CM needs to put the player "on the ground" in a more literal sense? We actually play the part of one of the commanders in the fight and therefore we should get the reports our real life counterpart would get if in a fight. What about sound feedback to simulate radio comms? IRL, if a company took casualties, the company commander would know about it ASAP. Make us the company commander and provide us with automatic feedback that actually draws your attention to an event. That would, for me, enhance the experience of this game immensly.

[Other Means]

Thing is, we don't just play as company commander, we play as squad leader - knowing the ammo levels, status and posture of every soldier, we play as company commander - telling each squad where to go, and we play as God - we see all and know all, so putting together every piece of information in your head.

There's really no way around that except for own side FOW. If you fancy playing a game with lots of distant fire and a stock ticker to simulate what the CC knows then good luck - it sounds like hell to me.

So what we need is a way for the information already available in the game to be seen immediately and in an engaging and intuitive way. A stock ticker doesn't do that - you may as well play Zork. Would you click on each line in it to go to the squad that's (e.g.)taken a casualty? So you'd get a notification, go to the spot, rewind the action 5 secs to see what happens - rinse repeat for every line for the whole minute? We're back to it being work - we don't see any of the drama of the firefight.

Personally, I'd rather be able to see all the information I needed straight away, without clicking into visual range of each squad and having to review the action. If that's feedback in the icons the OK, if it's a review of what an icon is and how it can represent the action then even better.

[c3k]

At this point I'd settle for having the unit icon flash yellow when they take incoming fire which causes suppression increase or casualties. The yellow flash would, in WEGO, become solid yellow at the end of the action/replay phase. Thus, a simple scan would enable the player to see who is taking fire.

When the player is DONE with the replay, all icons revert to normal blue or red.

In RT, the yellow flashing could be on a timer, say 10-15 seconds.

Thanks,

Ken

[Bigduke6]

Other Means is right, as usual. Simulation is as simulation does, but this is a warGame.

Until wargamers playing CMSF have a company staff to handle incoming information, plus virtual subordinates smart enogh to feed the right info at the right time, a company-level game needs to take steps away from visual reality on the screen, for the sake of giving clear information to the wargamer.

As Other Means makes clear, this could include:

- Unit size increase, makes 'em easy to see and locate

- Command lines visible, this is a simple and reliable way to represent the "feel" a commander has when his units are getting too far out of touch.

[LongLeftFlank]

Thing is, we don't just play as company commander, we play as squad leader - knowing the ammo levels, status and posture of every soldier, we play as company commander - telling each squad where to go, and we play as God - we see all and know all, so putting together every piece of information in your head.

There's really no way around that except for own side FOW. If you fancy playing a game with lots of distant fire and a stock ticker to simulate what the CC knows then good luck - it sounds like hell to me.

So what we need is a way for the information already available in the game to be seen immediately and in an engaging and intuitive way. A stock ticker doesn't do that - you may as well play Zork. Would you click on each line in it to go to the squad that's (e.g.)taken a casualty? So you'd get a notification, go to the spot, rewind the action 5 secs to see what happens - rinse repeat for every line for the whole minute? We're back to it being work - we don't see any of the drama of the firefight.

Personally, I'd rather be able to see all the information I needed straight away, without clicking into visual range of each squad and having to review the action. If that's feedback in the icons the OK, if it's a review of what an icon is and how it can represent the action then even better.

I agree. As noted, you can't just play this game from the splendid isolation of the commander's POV -- the AI isn't good enough (yet or ever) to be entrusted with executing the squad level firefights or maneuvers without doing stupid and suicidal things. You have to abandon the "realism" of the commander not having perfect information or control in favour of not having your units wither away while behaving like drunken cats.

I largely play RT, and the "stock ticker" -- with or without hyperlinks to the reporting units -- seemed to me a useful way to reduce the extended pausing and searching when I'm trying to maneuver a company+ through complex terrain (e.g. MOUT). As it is, when someone somewhere comes under fire I need to +/- through most of my force to see who it is. With the ticker I can pick and choose what's important to me... I care a lot more about a brewed up tank than I do a sniper casualty.

If BFC can come up with some symbolic alternative, like icons showing different colours or blinking while under attack, pinned or taking damage/casualties, then that's fine with me too. Whatever helps me keep the action going without having my forces melt away.

[Paper Tiger]

It's been interesting reading this thread. This is an idea that's been around for a long time now and I really do like the idea of unit icons flashing when they take fire. I wouldn't be surprised if we get it real soon too, if not with 1.1, then a not-so-distant patch as it really is a good idea. Anyway, I'm almost certain that even the flashing icons will get missed more often than not.

However, it seems to me that as the human player I already enjoy an ENORMOUS advantage over the AI side and other kinds of alerts, especially the ticker tape idea, is just one other way to be omnicient and screw the AI over even more effectively. The quality of the TAC AI affects the AI player just as much as it does me, especially when it's doing the attacking. Even with the 'borg spotting' problem largely gone, I still can and do take advantage of knowledge I shouldn't really have to manoeuver units into positions to take out enemy units, area fire on buildings etc. When units come under fire and I don't see who's doing the shooting I just put that down to fog of war and I'm pretty sure that's what happens in real life too. Especially in dense urban environments. MOUT is lethal in real life. And even viewing from far out, vehicles getting hit by RPGs or other AT weapons make enough noise to alert me to hit the pause button.

I play exclusively Real Time and so I'd definitely appreciate the visual clue of a flashing icon but WEGO players really do have all the time in the world to see what just happened and do something about it. If you miss something important, who's fault is that? Otherwise, anything that increases the fog of war factor in the game is welcomed by me.

[c3k]

Just plugging away here, thought I'd quote myself from a previous thread: "As I have stated before, one of the strengths of this game is the ability for the player to act at several levels of command simultaneously: I am the vehicle commander, the team leader, the squad leader, the platoon leader, the company commander, the battalion arty FO, the battalion commander, all separately and all combined.

I can dig down into which gear to drive a vehicle: SLOW, MOVE, REVERSE, etc. I can choose how many tubes of arty will fire when I call a fire mission. I can tell my squads to occupy the 6th floor of a building and look to the North. I can tell my tank to fire machinegun only at a target. I can move a team over to some casualties to begin first aid. But, I CANNOT keep my men from firing off every piece of Special Equipment ordnance they carry; I can either restrict them totally, or totally let them loose."

So, in reference to PaperTiger stating, "...but WEGO players really do have all the time in the world to see what just happened and do something about it. If you miss something important, who's fault is that? Otherwise, anything that increases the fog of war factor in the game is welcomed by me.", I disagree.

I, a WEGO player, do NOT have all the time in the world! My game time is limited by real life. If I devote some of my time to this game, I want to be engaged. If not, I don't play. If I don't play, I won't pay.

If NOTHING is happening to my men (see my above quote about how I am the vehicle commander AND squad leader, etc.), I don't mind letting the minutes go by as I move. I DO mind being FORCED by the game design to select every single unit, every single turn, at both the beginning and end of the turn. That turns a simple 60 second action phase into a 30 minute torture.

(Dear God, why can't I have an "advance to the end" timer button? >>| instead of the "have to click it 12 times > advance button to get to the end")?

If you want ironman, I'm the commander and don't want to know what is happening, rules, please play that way. I will not post that you shouldn't.

I don't care if I have an advantage over the AI side. I am the PLAYER. If I am forced to engage in mundane book-keeping tasks every turn the GAME stops being fun. A game which is not fun is not played.

Regards,

Ken

[Other Means]

It's been interesting reading this thread. This is an idea that's been around for a long time now and I really do like the idea of unit icons flashing when they take fire. I wouldn't be surprised if we get it real soon too, if not with 1.1, then a not-so-distant patch as it really is a good idea. Anyway, I'm almost certain that even the flashing icons will get missed more often than not.

However, it seems to me that as the human player I already enjoy an ENORMOUS advantage over the AI side and other kinds of alerts, especially the ticker tape idea, is just one other way to be omnicient and screw the AI over even more effectively. The quality of the TAC AI affects the AI player just as much as it does me, especially when it's doing the attacking. Even with the 'borg spotting' problem largely gone, I still can and do take advantage of knowledge I shouldn't really have to manoeuver units into positions to take out enemy units, area fire on buildings etc. When units come under fire and I don't see who's doing the shooting I just put that down to fog of war and I'm pretty sure that's what happens in real life too. Especially in dense urban environments. MOUT is lethal in real life. And even viewing from far out, vehicles getting hit by RPGs or other AT weapons make enough noise to alert me to hit the pause button.

I play exclusively Real Time and so I'd definitely appreciate the visual clue of a flashing icon but WEGO players really do have all the time in the world to see what just happened and do something about it. If you miss something important, who's fault is that? Otherwise, anything that increases the fog of war factor in the game is welcomed by me.

You don't think the Strat AI (i.e. the AI player, rather than the built in unit reactions) knows what's happening to each unit as it happens? Currently the Strat AI has that advantage over us.

And as we're the squad leader as well as the CC we should know what goes on at squad level immediately.

I'd settle for flashing icons as well.

[stikkypixie]

How about a color code - blue, yellow, black; red, yellow, black. Flashing icons would be pretty annoying.

[c3k]

Different colors for different levels of "stress"? That's a nice idea.

I like the flashing icon idea due to simplicity. A "Hey! Look at me, boss!" kind of effect. Right now the unit you select has their overhead icon flash green. Just using the same coding (right, like I know what I'm talking about) seems like a fix which is simple to plug in.

Of course, I can imagine a firefight in which the strobe effect of all those flashing yellows would cause issues, if not epileptic seizures!

Regards,

Ken