Jump to content

Georgia on my Mind


Recommended Posts

Hi guys. I'm a big fan of CMSF. I was looking through forum when i saw "Georgia on my Mind". And immediately opened it. Why? Actually I'm from Republic North Ossetia-Alania(not south part of Ossetia where war took place, but only 2 hours from Tskhinvali). About the war I know not only from tv and internet but mostly from people who were there those days when the conflict started-as civilians and as people who were defending our homeland. On August 9 in the morning I and my friends went to South Ossetia -yes we went to war. We didn't manage to get into the war itself(we were stopped by South Ossetian millitia. Reason: we hadn't had any experience of combat operations before, plus they said we are too young for war(19-20 years old)) but in next 2 days we managed to speak to those who were taking part in combat operations(Ossetians, Russians, Chechens). The article which was posted by Smaragdadler impressed me. Impressed because these days it's hard to find truth about what was happening in South Ossetia, but Smaragdadler managed to do impossible - thank you Smaragdadler. I can tell you a lot of things on the subject - so feel free to ask (i think it'll be great discussion). what i want to speak on first is the number of dead georgian soldiers (can't call them warriors) in South Ossetia -- near !!!7 000!!! and guess what? they(georgian government) don't want to take bodies to georgia. It's funny and sad at the same time.

p.s. excuse me for bad English.

Vash Angliyskiy ochen horoshiy, nevolnuites :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 149
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Alan, Hi!

Lots of questions obviously :) But it would be interesting to hear what you know about the war. Especially tactical and technical details. What surprised you? Anything worth talking about? Any things you know that are not covered in public media? How well did georgians fight? How well did russians fight?

Anything you think is interesting - please tell us about it! Did you take any pictures?

Дима

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dobro pozhalivat' :)

"what i want to speak on first is the number of dead georgian soldiers (can't call them warriors) in South Ossetia -- near !!!7 000!!! "

:eek: Comments?

I have a question with regards to popular [in certain cicrles] allegations that Georgian attack was actually a giant Russian provocation, an Russian military operation was prepared months in advance. Considering that entire 58th army passed through N.Ossetia, did you get a sense that it was an operation planned in advance or rather a hasty mobilization to respond to a threat? I've read that many units had been hastily thrown together with significant amount of armor breaking down on the way, is it true?

What is the general attitude in the region towards Russia? Georgia? EU? US?

Regards,

Sasha

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the looks of it there is no doubt that the Russians were all ready to go. They were simply waiting around for the Georgians to give them an excuse. This was my gut reaction when the counter attack happened, however a detailed analysis of Russian movements (see below) concluded quite soundly that it was. Remember, though, that the Russians had recently concluded an "exercise" in the area. It seems that that was a trial run and they didn't change their pre-positioned assets after the exercise was completed.

This is not really all that surprising since pretty much everybody involved agrees that the Georgian attack was anticipated. The more complicated issue is what got the Georgians into the position where they felt an attack was necessary. This is where the opinion of Russia and Georgia really differs.

Steve

Here's the text of the logistics analysis:

Foreign Policy Research Institute

Over 50 Years of Ideas in Service to Our Nation

www.fpri.org

E-Notes

Distributed Exclusively via Fax & Email

RUSSIA RESURGENT: AN INITIAL LOOK AT

RUSSIAN MILITARY PERFORMANCE IN GEORGIA

by Felix K. Chang

August 13, 2008

Felix K. Chang was a senior planner and an intelligence

officer in the U.S. Department of Defense. He is currently a

partner at CVP Ventures and a senior fellow at FPRI. His

publications and ongoing research concentrate on military,

economic, and energy security issues in Asia as well as

financial industry trends around the world.

RUSSIA RESURGENT: AN INITIAL LOOK AT

RUSSIAN MILITARY PERFORMANCE IN GEORGIA

by Felix K. Chang

It is no surprise that tensions between Russia and Georgia

have mounted. On August 3 Moscow warned of the growing

danger of a "large-scale military conflict" between Georgia

and its separatist province of South Ossetia; that warning

drew a reply from Washington two days later urging Moscow to

refrain from provocative actions in the region.[1]

As the conflict unfolded during the night of August 7 with a

Georgian military offensive into South Ossetia, it soon

appeared that Tbilisi miscalculated the Russian response. By

the morning of August 8, Russian forces were streaming into

Georgia. While news reports from the frontlines remain

preliminary and incomplete, the scale and speed of Russia's

military operations between August 8 and 12 do shed some

light on Russian military capabilities and operational

readiness and raise new questions regarding the events

leading to the conflict.

RUSSIAN GROUND FORCES

Within hours of the overnight Georgian offensive beginning

August 7, an estimated 6,000 to 10,000 Russian troops were

on the main highway leading into Georgia. By 1:00 pm on

August 8, witnesses reported roads filled with hundreds of

tanks, armored personnel carriers, towed artillery, and

truck-mounted rocket launchers already travelling into the

Roki Tunnel, which passes through the mountainous area that

separates Russia and Georgia.[2]

From the number of troops and types of equipment, and given

the units of the 58th Army based nearby, it is clear that

Russia deployed the equivalent of a motor rifle division.

For such a force to move from bivouac into the field,

Russian army commanders would have needed time to coordinate

the mobilization--distributing ammunition and supplies,

establishing the right of way on the only highway to

Georgia, and sorting out the proper ordering of the

advancing column so that it could combat any resistance it

may encounter.

In addition, Russian media reported on Saturday that

elements of the 76th Air Assault Division based in the

Leningrad Military District had already been airlifted into

the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. Elements of the

96th Airborne Division and 45th Intelligence Regiment based

in the Moscow Military District were slated to follow soon

thereafter. These may have constituted the "battalion task

forces" that General Vladimir Boldyrev, commander of Russian

Ground Forces, said captured the capital city early on that

same day. These elite formations, which represent part of

Russia's strategic reserve, are likely to have units on

constant alert for rapid deployments. Still, to fully equip,

embark, transport, and coordinate the arrival and

integration of these troops into combat operations alongside

the 58th Army units moving overland is a notable

demonstration of not only long-range airlift capability

involving over 100 airlift sorties, but also improved

command and staff arrangements, which proved so difficult

for the Russia's army in the 1990s.[3]

Surely with rising tensions, Russian army commanders likely

had contingency plans in place for such an operation. Even

so, it remains remarkable that such sizable forces could

have been orchestrated and arrayed in under half a day, even

if decision-making in Moscow was instantaneous, especially

if the actual timing of the Georgian offensive was unknown

to Russian leaders. For by the early afternoon on August 8,

Russian mechanized infantry responding to the Georgian

provocation were already battling in Tskhinvali, about 40 km

from Russia but less than 5 km from where Georgia's

offensive began.[4] Certainly, most of the Russian ground

units that participated in the incursion into Georgia must

have been placed on a higher state of readiness and their

commands coordinated earlier last week to achieve such a

fast and smoothly executed response.

RUSSIAN AIR FORCES

Russia operates a number of air bases near Georgia. Many of

these supported military operations in Chechnya between

1994-2000, when separatists in that province sought autonomy

from Russia. Clearly, the Russian military has also improved

its air-ground coordination since its poorly managed Chechen

campaigns. In Georgia, the Russian air force appeared to

have provided effective close air support to the army units

advancing into South Ossetia. News reports indicated that

Georgian defenses blocking the Russian advance were struck

from the air.[5] Given the fast tempo of the action, only

good coordination between air and ground units would have

ensured such support.

With over 300 combat aircraft--including Su-24, Su-25, and

Su-27 fighters and Tu-22 bombers--reportedly participating

in the operation, Russia clearly had little problem

achieving air superiority over Georgia, which could field

only eight Su-25 fighters. Given that many of its jets were

probably on alert, the Russian air force could quickly take

to the sky. Just as important, it likely possessed excellent

intelligence on key Georgian military sites, which is

unsurprising since Russian troops had been stationed in

Georgia until 2007 and its peacekeepers have been present in

South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway Georgian

province.

So far, four Russian and one Georgian aircraft are confirmed

to have been destroyed, though each side has claimed higher

numbers. It appears that all the losses have been due to

ground-based air defenses, mainly surface-to-air missiles.

While the Su-25 losses on both sides are readily

understandable given their role in close air support, the

Russian loss of a Tu-22M3 bomber, which normally operates at

high altitude, remains unexplained.[6]

As a whole, the intensity of Russia's air operations should

also be noted. From a cold start, the Russian air force

activated a broad array of combat units and maintained a

high operational tempo for over four days. It would have

required foresight to stock the needed bases with sufficient

stores of fuel and ammunition. In July 2007, Russia may have

had the chance to prepare for such an action during a large-

scale training maneuver simulating the defense of Russia's

southern border called Exercise Caucasian Border 2007 that

featured more than 400 air sorties. If nothing else, Russian

air units demonstrated that they were well prepared for this

sort of contingency and performed their duties with greater

skill and coordination than had been seen in the 1990s.

RUSSIAN NAVAL FORCES

Possibly the most striking performance may have been that of

the Russian Black Sea Fleet, whose capabilities have not

been highly regarded. On Saturday, Georgian sources

announced that Russian warships had begun to blockade its

coast. The presence of the ships was seemingly confirmed by

Russian-backed Abkhaz authorities, who claimed that the

ships had deflected a Georgian attempt to close off the

coastline of Abkhazia. In the meantime, Russian media

reported that the Moskva, a Slava-class cruiser, and the

Smetlivy, a Kashin-class destroyer, as well as a small

number of supply and logistics ships had sailed from

Sevastopol and arrived in the region on Sunday to "provide

aid to refugees" and not to "blockade the Georgian coast."

The reports concluded that after "several maneuvers" as part

of an anti-terror exercise, the ships sailed onto

Novorossiysk.[7]

Though not confirmed by Georgian sources, the Russian Navy

informed media outlets that four Georgian fast-attack craft

had crossed the border of the established security zone and

threatened the Russian flotilla. In response, after firing

warning shots, the Russian warships sank one of the craft

with gunfire. Another unconfirmed claim was made by Georgia

that the Russian navy landed troops into Abkhazia over the

weekend. If true, these troops probably sailed aboard the

three "large landing craft," which Russian news reported had

sailed from Novorossiysk, where ground troops are known to

be based nearby. The "large landing craft" were either the

three Alligator-class or three Ropucha-class LSTs based with

the Black Sea Fleet. But even if accurate, these ships could

not have lifted more than 900 troops at one time, far fewer

than the Georgian claim.[8]

While the claims of a naval clash and a troop landing

remains unclear, the speed with which the Russian vessels

based at Sevastopol must have put to sea is not. Since the

Moskva and Smetlivy were accompanying much slower supply and

logistics ships, whose maximum speed range between 12 and 16

knots, the flotilla would have taken 25 hours to transit the

400 nm between Sevastopol and the Georgian coast. For the

ships to have arrived on Saturday, they would have to have

sailed on Friday, just hours after Georgian troops crossed

into South Ossetia.

Thus, the Russian vessels must have been on alert with their

crews aboard and the supply ships already loaded with

whatever humanitarian aid they were intended to transport.

Otherwise, the Black Sea Fleet would have required at least

a full day, if not longer, to get its ships underway, so

that naval commanders could plan the mission, crews could be

recalled, and appropriate supplies could be found and loaded

onto the ships. In addition, the ease with which those

supplies were offloaded at their destination implies further

coordination as to who would receive them and how they would

be distributed. For the Black Sea Fleet, its ability to

respond as quickly as it did shows that it had not only been

held at a high state of operational readiness, but also made

substantial preparations for the action.

OPERATIONAL AXES

Russian forces eventually advanced across two fronts. In

South Ossetia, Russian troops took Tskhinvali and then

crossed into undisputed Georgian territory to cut the main

highway and rail line west of Gori. A second front was

opened when Russian mechanized infantry passed through the

UN security zone and entered undisputed Georgian territory

from Abkhazia. At least 2,000 troops occupied Zugdidi, a

Georgian town 10 km from the border and a sector

headquarters of the UN peacekeeping force. The Russian

column continued another 30 km to Senaki, where it captured

a Georgian military base and airfield, severing the main

highway and rail line at a second location and effectively

controlling all heavy traffic movement across Georgia. It is

reasonable to assume that at least some of the 9,000 troops

and 350 armored vehicles the Russian military had stationed

in Abkhazia as peacekeepers participated in the advance.

Meanwhile, Abkhaz separatists subdued Georgian positions in

the Kodori Valley and Russian air power destroyed key

military facilities in Tbilisi and port of Poti.[9]

No doubt Russia's military action in Georgia will prompt

many countries to view Moscow in a sharper light, from the

capitals of Europe to Beijing and Tokyo. However the world

eventually interprets Russia's intervention in Georgia's

civil conflict--whether as a "humanitarian effort" as Moscow

portrays or as a "full scale invasion" as Tbilisi portrays--

it does demonstrate the Russian military's renewed ability

to prosecute a relatively complex, high-intensity combined

arms operation. Still, the evidently high state of readiness

of such a broad array of Russian military units across all

three services raises more questions about Moscow's

intentions and planning prior to the outbreak of

hostilities.

----------------------------------------------------------

Notes

[1] Jim Mannion, "US military surprised by speed, timing of

Russia military action," Agence France-Presse, August 11,

2008; Gonzalo R. Gallegos, U.S. Department of State Daily

Press Briefing, August 5, 2008, at www.state.gov.

[2] "Russia's Troops to Liberate Tskhinvali," Kommersant,

August 8, 2008.

[3] "Russian Paratroopers in Abkhazia," InfoRos, August 11,

2008; "Paratroopers from Pskov, Ivanovo Brought in to

Tskhinvali," Kommersant, August 9, 2008; "Russia:

Paratroopers in breakaway capital," CNN, August 9, 2008.

[4] "Russian armored vehicles approaching Tskhinvali,"

Interfax, August 8, 2008; "Russia's Armored Vehicles Entered

Tskhinvali," Kommersant, August 8, 2008.

[5] "Russia's Warplanes Bombed Out Georgia's Artillery near

Gori," Kommersant, August 9, 2008; "Aircraft striking

Georgian positions in S. Ossetia ," Interfax, August 8,

2008.

[6] "Georgian strike fighter shot down in S. Ossetia,"

Interfax, August 11, 2008; David A. Fulghum and Douglas

Barrie, "Georgia Strikes Back with Air Defenses," Aviation

Week, August 11, 2008.

[7] "Russian Navy carries out Black Sea anti-terror

exercise," RIA Novosti, August 11, 2008; "Russian Navy ships

approach Georgia's sea border," RIA Novosti, August 10,

2008; "Georgians to Leave South Ossetia as Focus Shifts to

Black Sea," Deutsche Welle, August 10, 2008.

[8] "Georgian Military Boats Attacked Russian Warships,"

InfoRos, August 11, 2008; Marc Champion, Andrew Osborn, John

D. McKinnon, "Russia Widens Attacks on Georgia," Wall Street

Journal, August 11, 2008; Ron Popeski, "Russian navy sinks

Georgian boat: Defence ministry," Reuters, August 10, 2008.

[9] "Forcing Georgians Out of Kodori Valley," InfoRos,

August 12, 2008; Christopher Torchia and David Nowak,

"Russia opens new front, drives deeper into Georgia,"

Associated Press, August 10, 2008.

----------------------------------------------------------

Copyright Foreign Policy Research Institute

(http://www.fpri.org/). You may forward this essay as you

like provided that it is sent in its entirety and attributed

to FPRI. , provided that you send it in its entirety.

Contact FPRI for permission to repost it at another website.

If you receive this as a forward and would like to be added

to our mailing list, send an email to FPRI@fpri.org,

including your name, address, and any affiliation.

For further information or to inquire about membership in

FPRI, please contact Alan Luxenberg, lux@fpri.org or (215)

732-3774 x105.

If you would like to be removed from our distribution list,

please type "Remove" in the subject line of an email to

fpri@fpri.org.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan, Hi!

Lots of questions obviously :) But it would be interesting to hear what you know about the war. Especially tactical and technical details. What surprised you? Anything worth talking about? Any things you know that are not covered in public media? How well did georgians fight? How well did russians fight?

Anything you think is interesting - please tell us about it! Did you take any pictures?

Дима

Hi Dima. Well, when everything started everyone was shocked. I won't lie to you, people both in north Ossetia and south did know that something was going to start-we were getting information that georgian troops are on the move (few days before war) so we began preparations. First of all 24hours before war about 40% of people(mostly women and children) were evacuated(from south Ossetia to north). Then the president of south Ossetia sent letters to almost every republic of Caucasus. In those letters he explained that georgians would start operation those days, and he asked for help (not official help of course). As you know help came (Chechens, Dagestans and others). Speaking of Chechens; those are best warriors in whole Caucas region. Chechens were first to start advancing from Russian border into south Ossetia(their first objective was to reinforce those who were defending Tskhinvali). What special about it? well, south Ossetia isn't their homeland, they neither have families in Tskhinvali nor friends. I think it's hard to fight when you don't have some big reason isn't it?(...but maybe if you're mercenary...) Unfortunately first squad was completely destroyed (about 50 men died) - they got under artillery barrage on road to Tskhinvali(big mistake, they say they weren't expecting to be attacked so soon. it's like Georgians knew that Chechens are on the way). Later they proved themselves as heroes. Just imagine 20 men taking rid of 3 T-72s, 2 BMP 2's and about 50 men - now you ask "how??". Georgians were stupid enough to get into the center of Tshkinvali, leave their vehicles and start shooting photos of their great "victory"- yeah :eek:. Than imagine situation: same center of the town. Georgian (now guess what) !!! STRYKER !!! moving down some street without any cover(as chechens found out later - the cover were sitting inside). They shoot 1 RPG round - the vehicle stopped. You know what those who were inside of it started to do? They bailed out(about 6-8 men), but not just bailed out, but bailed out without their weapons and ammunition and even without their vests!!! yeah-:eek: again. (by the way- when chechens were leaving Ossetia they took 1 stryker and 1 t-72 to show to their president). if we speak on Russians: i heard this story. Russian column(some BMP's BTR's and few trucks) is on the move to Tshkinvali. Suddenly they heard sound of jet in the air. So when they saw it getting into position to attack, someone ordered to leave vehicles and take cover. Everyone obeyed the order except one soldier - the guy took AA rocket launcher(equivalent to "stinger") "strella"("arrow") aimed fired guided. He'll get his "Za Otvagu" medal(i guess in English it's "Medal of Honor" or smth. like that) from the presidents hands. Speaking on pictures - FSB(mix of FBI and CIA) is currently interested in any kinds of photos and videos from south Ossetia. By now it can be a mistake to post photos or videos in internet or show on tv- they'll take them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dobro pozhalivat' :)

"what i want to speak on first is the number of dead georgian soldiers (can't call them warriors) in South Ossetia -- near !!!7 000!!! "

:eek: Comments?

I have a question with regards to popular [in certain cicrles] allegations that Georgian attack was actually a giant Russian provocation, an Russian military operation was prepared months in advance. Considering that entire 58th army passed through N.Ossetia, did you get a sense that it was an operation planned in advance or rather a hasty mobilization to respond to a threat? I've read that many units had been hastily thrown together with significant amount of armor breaking down on the way, is it true?

What is the general attitude in the region towards Russia? Georgia? EU? US?

Regards,

Sasha

Well, i read a lot of "fantasy stories" in internet about Russia being the aggressor in georgia and it was russians plan to start the war and so on... You know it's kinda sad when you read such stories knowing the truth. And it's even worse when people believe those stories.

"...Considering that entire 58th army passed through N.Ossetia..." in fact biggest part of 58th army and 58th army HQ are located near our town(Vladikavkaz, capital of N.Ossetia) - it's about 2 hours by car to Tshkinvali. I can add that 58th army was set on alert when georgians officially announced that they are at war with S.Ossetians(7th august 23.30) Russian units started to move right when me and my friends did -7.00-8.00 a.m. 8th august) and first units crossed the border at 10.30-11.00 am. There was some problems on the move because there is only 1 road to S.Ossetia, and it was hard for them to get there faster(the columns were very big, plus there were many cars with refuges moving to Russia)

"I've read that many units had been hastily thrown together with significant amount of armor breaking down on the way, is it true?" what you're speaking about were parts of Chechen battalions advancing into S.Ossetia before Russian units came. And when units of russian army started to advance they were under heavy artillery fire on the road to the town. At that period Russians suffered their biggest causalities. In the begging armor which were on the move were backed by S. and N.Ossetians, Chechens, and Russian Spec.Forces(i saw those by myself... and i started to think that we should pray for georgians:D). those days there were rumors that Russians are taking heavy causalities - like soldiers from training camps were thrown forward - absolutely lies.

"What is the general attitude in the region towards Russia? Georgia? EU? US?"

About 90% of people who live in S.Ossetia have Russian passports. Since 90's they have been asking for Russia to accept S.Ossetian independence(it was accepted by Russia few days ago). Here Russians are Heroes who saved our nation - and it's 100% truth.

Georgians? It was Saakashvilli who started the war, but not Georgians. I have friends who are georgians, so what shall i do? kill them? No, never. But I(and every Ossetian) would like to see Saakashvili dead as Saddam.

EU? US? Everyone here knew that some EU countries and USA are helping georgia with its military:money, weapons, instructors(who later turned out to be mercenaries). But why hate people who live in those countries? I don't think that any of you guys were asked by your presidents "shall we give georgia 1 000 000 000$ a year so few years later it will try to destroy whole S.Ossetia?"(And I don't think you even knew where S.Ossetia on world map)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the looks of it there is no doubt that the Russians were all ready to go. They were simply waiting around for the Georgians to give them an excuse. This was my gut reaction when the counter attack happened, however a detailed analysis of Russian movements (see below) concluded quite soundly that it was. Remember, though, that the Russians had recently concluded an "exercise" in the area. It seems that that was a trial run and they didn't change their pre-positioned assets after the exercise was completed.

This is not really all that surprising since pretty much everybody involved agrees that the Georgian attack was anticipated. The more complicated issue is what got the Georgians into the position where they felt an attack was necessary. This is where the opinion of Russia and Georgia really differs.

Steve

Here's the text of the logistics analysis:

Steve thank you for 99% truth. That 1%- "By 1:00 pm on

August 8, witnesses reported roads filled with hundreds of

tanks, armored personnel carriers, towed artillery, and

truck-mounted rocket launchers already travelling into the

Roki Tunnel, which passes through the mountainous area that

separates Russia and Georgia." - is not true. Yes we knew about georgians moving their forces into positions around S.Ossetia. But we hoped that it was nothing but our imagination... Russians crossed the border at 10.00-12.00 a.m.. They weren't massing near border at 1.00 a.m. By the way at that time i was watching specilal tv reports from Tshkinvalli. I haven't mentioned it yet but first few hours of war(from 23.00 p.m. 7 august to 3-4 a.m. 8 august) georgians were shelling Tshkinvali with BM-21 "Grad"("Hailstones") just type it in wiki and imagine what was going on in Tshkinvali those hours - straight hell on earth. Believe me, when you see on tv how whole town with 30.000 people in it is being "erased" from maps... I thought it was the beginning of Apocalypse. For a long time it was the first time when i felt that I want to cry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

about the BM-21 "Grad" -- "...The relative accuracy of this system and the number of rockets each vehicle is able to quickly bring to bear on an enemy target make it effective, especially at shorter ranges. One battalion of eighteen launchers is able to deliver 720 rockets in a single volley. However, the system cannot be used in situations that call for pinpoint precision.

They shelled Tskhinvali(7.4 km² (2.9 sq mi)) with 3 battalions of BM-21's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan,

Welcome to the forum!

What is your source for the information that 7,000 Georgian dead are in Ossetian/Russian hands, and the Georgians are unwilling to take them back? That's scandalous.

Also, you write that some of the foreign instructors fought as mercenaries. That's very interesting, where can I find out more information about that?

Steve,

That's an excellent analysis and from what I saw I would say it's generally accurate. I would however add a couple of points.

The main Russian combat formation was a motor rifle division deployed in Chechnya, I believe 19th Motor Rifle, and that element was in the field, fully combat ready, and at least theoretically prepared at any time to pick up sticks and go somewhere else. Soldiers I talked to said they spent 3-4 days on the road, so that's some (but far from conclusive) evidence the Kremlin was reacting to events rather than springing a clever trap. Question of degree of course. But it is 100 per cent clear to me - the unit was an experienced field formation and they were comfortable with mobile operations and live ammunition. As I have noted elsewhere, I saw few busted vehicles and the ones that did break down were repaired and moving inside of 24 hours, and usually alot less.

I think simply this division's proximity to Ossetia and experience in Chechnya was a very big, and perhaps decisve factor in the Kremlin's decision to send them.

This is not to say the Russians put together the op on the fly, the distances from Sevastopol alone and the Black Sea Fleets rapid arrival make obvious the Russians knew the Georgians were coming. My personal guess as to how the Russians knew is, the FSB doubtless has penetrated right to the top of the Georgian leadership, and the Georgians are sloppy with information as a general matter of policy.

As to the air effort, I strongly suspect 350 aircraft operating is a substantial overstatement. If the Georgians are to be believed the biggest Russian sortie rate took place on Sunday or Monday, I forget which, was 24 planes. Also, "word on the street" was the Georgians had only 5 x Su-25 operational of which two got shot down right at the beginning. So Russian air superiority probably was not so much a function of the Russian air force's comptence, as the Georgians' absence. Also interesting is the Russians' complaints that Georgian S-200 systems bought from Ukraine did most of the damage to the Russian air force, if you believe the Russians they had no idea the Georgians even had bought the missile systems. I find that pretty fishy as a Ukraine-Georgia arms transfer would have to be something the FSB would know about. So I assume the Russians are covering up a goof somewhere, maybe IFF or they underrated the capacity of the S-200.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I would like to say few words about us(though i didn't manage to get into the fight itself) Ossetians. Type in wikipedia words like "Scythians" "Sarmatians" or "Alans". You'll be taken to articles about our ancestors. Just read it and you'll find out that we are the descendants of great warriors who were known around the world even BC, so warfare is part of our blood. I just wonder why georgians thought that they could take our land easily. By the way King Arthur and some of his knights were sarmatians...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan, thanks for the information!

However I think the reports about Stryker are exaggerated. Georgians did not have any of those vehicles. We need to be careful that the information is indeed verified. It is understandable that during the active combat and shortly thereafter there are a lot of rumors floating so it is important to keep calm and neutral when discussing these things.

As far as FSB interested in photos, again I really doubdt this. There are hundreds of pictures and first-hand reports on the internet from there. Do you have any proof that FSB prohibited this? If not, again, I would be careful spreading these rumours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan,

Welcome to the forum!

What is your source for the information that 7,000 Georgian dead are in Ossetian/Russian hands, and the Georgians are unwilling to take them back? That's scandalous.

Also, you write that some of the foreign instructors fought as mercenaries. That's very interesting, where can I find out more information about that?

Hi. My main sources(about 7000(soldiers)) are the president of S.Ossetia Kokoyti - he said it many times in multiply interviews; people who were taking part in combat operations (Russians, Chechens and Ossetians) - they say that there were not enough place in Tshkinvali to put corpses(as they didn't want to bury georgians). I've seen a lot of dead georgians by my own eyes. Plus I heard many stories in "live" when we were at Java (small village near Russian-S.Ossetian border. It the only S.Ossetian village which wasn't destroyed by georgians).

2nd. About mercenaries.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/920931.html?v=2ba74ce272cfacd213ff96830c4b9be5

http://rutube.ru/tracks/983358.html?v=e098f43c69666386a8145fe62f6083fb

(i'm sorry but those videos are in russian)

I with MY OWN EYES SAW 2 AFRICANS(dead) FSB took their corpses and documents. Those AA systems that you were talking about(s 200 i guess) were not only bought from Ukraine but operated by Ukrainians(I'm unsure if it's true. Some Russian soldier who came from Gori said that inside destroyed S-200's they had found Ukrainians. Also in few T-72's we(I mean Ossetians-not myself) found Ukrainians. Some people were talking about dead soldiers who had "asian appearance".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan, thanks for the information!

However I think the reports about Stryker are exaggerated. Georgians did not have any of those vehicles. We need to be careful that the information is indeed verified. It is understandable that during the active combat and shortly thereafter there are a lot of rumors floating so it is important to keep calm and neutral when discussing these things.

As far as FSB interested in photos, again I really doubdt this. There are hundreds of pictures and first-hand reports on the internet from there. Do you have any proof that FSB prohibited this? If not, again, I would be careful spreading these rumours.

I've spoken to people who were in the town they told me the story about " "american" type of APC with 4 wheels that they had never seen before" and few days later someone said that Chechens took one of those "american APC's" to Grozny.

when we were in Java there were russian officers.They asked anyone who had some videos or photos from Tshkenvali to hand those videos and photos to them. They said that they are making investigation of war crimes which were done by some Georgian troops.

I believe those photos and videos will leak to internet sometime later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

very interesting video showing captured vehicles, mercenaries (one of the best so far)(in Russian) 2 parts

http://rutube.ru/tracks/991912.html?v=b207ac2c16b1b3e6e2c71ef165b39485

http://rutube.ru/tracks/991919.html?v=7db259ee6a9e7550a64639055b44bbb3

about US Humvees and instructors.

In the video they even say that found some drugs in pockets of georgian troops.

I remember how one of Ossetian soldiers was excited about georgian soldiers being under influence of some kind of drugs. He said that he opened fire from RPK on some georgian soldier but the soldier only fell after 8th hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting videos, especially the one about the trophies - sounds like Russian military research institutes are going to have a field day with all that NATO-standard crypto comms equipment. Also let's hope those up-armored Hummers captured in Gergia didn't have some form of composite armor derived from that of the Abrams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

very interesting video showing captured vehicles, mercenaries (one of the best so far)(in Russian) 2 parts

http://rutube.ru/tracks/991912.html?v=b207ac2c16b1b3e6e2c71ef165b39485

http://rutube.ru/tracks/991919.html?v=7db259ee6a9e7550a64639055b44bbb3

.

Very interesting. Why are the Russians so troubled about Georgia getting weapons from Ukraine (at least that's what I gather from the videos).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the video they did get composite upgrade. During the part where 7-ton up armored Humvee is being driven around, the commentator mentions special alloys with chemicals additives that are going to be studied. From other noteworthy trophees, American artillery spotter "briefcase" unit was captured intact as well as a variety of observation and communication equipment.

So far, American ergonomics and user friendliness seem to impress Russian troops alot more than actual combat characteristics (notice the admiration for easy and responsive engine starter switch as well as automatic tranny).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take a look at these too:

http://rutube.ru/tracks/981532.html?v=e5714567940371ba8c207ca49c78c5cc

http://rutube.ru/tracks/981652.html?v=6236cd4144e3f50ee0ab3d789160562f

http://rutube.ru/tracks/981642.html?v=9992bf1ab21a9e35d46363052cf256a1

1st shows georgian troops before they entered Tshkinvali (just imagine that some of them will never quit it)

2nd - well when I was watching it I remembered videos from Iraq in which insurgents were firing at US troops - shoot not to kill but to get rid of your ammo.

And 3rd - you can call it "no comment". Plus someone called the video quote:"GeorgianTanskDesto yHeavyArmedRuss ianVechicle"(though there is a comment by the poster of the video which says "the morning of August the 8th." it means that there couldn't be any Russian armor in Tshkinvali at that time) The question is - who are they shooting at?? And something special about it - the column shown in the video will be completely destroyed 30 minutes later.

more videos:

rutube.ru/tracks/912372.html?v=dbbd6ceb523795c5e68f9625ea4684d9

http://rutube.ru/tracks/914829.html?v=1a3ebd2df52d0d8a16adbfe971a2c841

http://rutube.ru/tracks/983109.html?v=38e35ac9fe1f5358ad54ec5d9f753a83

1st and 2nd - "no comments"

3rd - "insurgents got tanks" and the same question: Who are they shooting at???:eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see. Not exactly mercenaries, more like technicians.

Nice vids and lots of fine info, but of course Russian national television is not famous for its even-handed reporting. For instance, if Georgia legally bought Ukrainian ADA, as seems to be indicated by the export plate on the missile systems, why should Russian national television pretend the purchase was a big surprise to the Kremlin? For sure they knew about it.

A better question would be "If the Russians knew the Georgians bought Ukrainian-built S-200, why did the the Russian air force (it seems) ignore the threat of that system for the first few days of fighting, and apparently lose several aircraft as a result?" That would be an excellent question for a news report produced by Russian television for Russian viewers about Georgian military equipment in the Ossetia war. But the reporter never got around to asking that question, apparently.

Along those same lines, without something more than a voice-over I personally would be very suspicious of a claim the Georgian soldiers were high on drugs. Maybe one or two, but certainly no way as a general thing.

I would assume the general mechanics of the vehicle communications equipment are long compromised as intelligence about them has been a FSB priority for about 20 years. Indeed, I would guess that if Russian national television airs images of a US vehicle radio, we can take that to be a confirmation the FSB no longer is even trying to conceal whether or not it knows how that piece of equipment works.

Of course the critical thing is the daily cryptography code that gets fed into the radios; I doubt seriously NSA-produced key sheets were anywhere near Georgia, the Americans aren't that stupid.

As to why the Russians are irate about the Ukrainians, there are lots of possibilities:

- Russia is planning an attack on Ukraine

- General stoking of the "World surrounds us" worries in the mind of Russian viewers

- General stoking of the "Georgia was a dangerous opponent" fiction in the mind of Russian viewers

- Kremlin is embaressed an ADA system it developed shot down its own airplanes, so now the goal is to keep any one from asking in public whether the Kremlin should rethink its own weapons export policies

Interestingly, the Ukrainians have already responded the Russian accusations by pointing out that Russia in the past has been a substantially bigger exporter of military equipment and materials to Georgia, than Ukraine. I bet that by value the Ukrainians are right.

So I would assume part of the offended tone of the Russian government is grounded on a desire to keep any one in Russia from asking why it was Russia was arming a country it wound up fighting a war against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting. Why are the Russians so troubled about Georgia getting weapons from Ukraine (at least that's what I gather from the videos).

We are troubled about Georgia getting weapons from anywhere- because they are using those weapons against women and children(I'm not talking about grown men who are able to defend themselves with the same types of weapons) As far as I know Israel officially announced that it will cancel any further weapons deals with georgia. Plus they will not continue to train georgian troops anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see. Not exactly mercenaries, more like technicians.

Nice vids and lots of fine info, but of course Russian national television is not famous for its even-handed reporting. For instance, if Georgia legally bought Ukrainian ADA, as seems to be indicated by the export plate on the missile systems, why should Russian national television pretend the purchase was a big surprise to the Kremlin? For sure they knew about it.

A better question would be "If the Russians knew the Georgians bought Ukrainian-built S-200, why did the the Russian air force (it seems) ignore the threat of that system for the first few days of fighting, and apparently lose several aircraft as a result?" That would be an excellent question for a news report produced by Russian television for Russian viewers about Georgian military equipment in the Ossetia war. But the reporter never got around to asking that question, apparently.

Along those same lines, without something more than a voice-over I personally would be very suspicious of a claim the Georgian soldiers were high on drugs. Maybe one or two, but certainly no way as a general thing.

I would assume the general mechanics of the vehicle communications equipment are long compromised as intelligence about them has been a FSB priority for about 20 years. Indeed, I would guess that if Russian national television airs images of a US vehicle radio, we can take that to be a confirmation the FSB no longer is even trying to conceal whether or not it knows how that piece of equipment works.

Of course the critical thing is the daily cryptography code that gets fed into the radios; I doubt seriously NSA-produced key sheets were anywhere near Georgia, the Americans aren't that stupid.

As to why the Russians are irate about the Ukrainians, there are lots of possibilities:

- Russia is planning an attack on Ukraine

- General stoking of the "World surrounds us" worries in the mind of Russian viewers

- General stoking of the "Georgia was a dangerous opponent" fiction in the mind of Russian viewers

- Kremlin is embaressed an ADA system it developed shot down its own airplanes, so now the goal is to keep any one from asking in public whether the Kremlin should rethink its own weapons export policies

Interestingly, the Ukrainians have already responded the Russian accusations by pointing out that Russia in the past has been a substantially bigger exporter of military equipment and materials to Georgia, than Ukraine. I bet that by value the Ukrainians are right.

So I would assume part of the offended tone of the Russian government is grounded on a desire to keep any one in Russia from asking why it was Russia was arming a country it wound up fighting a war against.

First of all: did you heard in video that Russia was "surprised" to see Ukrainian weapons in georgia? No, because we did know about those weapons. 2nd yes they knew about s-200. You can call it a mistake, but when 58th army was crossing border(was on the march) it needed air support.

next:

- Russia will NEVER attack Ukraine.

- We don't worry about "world surrounds us"(If we die you'll die too :D (big boom:D ))

- "Georgia was a dangerous opponent" :eek: are you serious?? "opponent"? "dangerous"? they destroyed georgian military infrastructure in 30 hours? so there was no opponent at all.

- those S-200's aren't Russian. They came out of Ukrainian factories with Ukrainian electonics and even Ukrainian crews inside )).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some quick comments then I have to leave for a bit (busy, busy, busy!).

The American vehicles seen were Humvees, not Strykers. Strykers are 8x8 vehicles that look like most like the BTR. I can promise you that they have no Strykers or even the Canadian LAV III variants. They do, however, have a very small number of Humvees. This was mentioned in the article on page 2 or 3 of this thread that detailed all the equipment used.

It is very typical for both sides of a new conflict like this to accuse the other side of distorting the evidence. Each side, unfortunately, tends to discredit the other side's sources more than their own. This is a natural Human condition that we are all guilty of. In other words, "the sources that are on my side are good until proven inaccurate, the sources for my opponent are inaccurate until proven good". We must all be careful to keep this in mind and treat all information, from both sides, as suspect unless it is verified. And I mean *all*. Any American here that was even remotely supportive of the invasion of Iraq knows why this is so important :D

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...