John Kettler Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 People, That's "by the cover date," rather than as shown and found too late to fix! akd, It was SO much easier to stay on top of threat developments when you had one monolith (the USSR), plus a collection of liths varying in size (Warsaw Pact countries) to mainly be concerned with. Now, it's more like everything MIRVed! What, in your opinion, is the best stand-in in CMSF for this previously unknown to me T-72 version? I'm guessing, based on the optronics list alone, the TURMS-T, and I'd bet that doesn't have either the C3I or the GPS fitted this one does. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Hi, CMSF does a great representation of Georgia and all those involved. Using some of Russian mods out there… voices and uniforms… it all works very well… Google for the terrain and contours… and we are off… All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodkin Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 I'm interested in the position of the ERA on the left side of that turret, wouldn't it be more effective to have it like the two bricks on the right hand side? Why have two rows connecting with the apex pointing out? a shot from another t-72 at the same height would render them ineffective, would it not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 A 6 minute video of Russian column on the move and getting under attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Dismounts have to climb out of the top, AKA BTR-60 style. The vehicle is not meant for dismounting directly in a firefight. The Russians simply need a APC that has better protection against RPGs getting to and from the AO. BMP's don't fare well in ambushes from RPG equipped "separatists". And yes, an almost a direct copy of the IDF Achzarit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Achzarit http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/achzarit/Achzarit.html The IDF soution seems better proteted, in my opinion (w. rear ramp, etc). Makes me wonder when the US will start taking all those M-60 tanks laying around and make their version! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Russians bringing some older stuff into play. A Russian military column drives through the township of Alagir to Georgia's breakaway province South Ossetia August 10,2008. Russian troops took most of the capital of the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia on Sunday after a three-day battle. Reuters Russian or S. Ossetian? Anyways, seems Russia is invading Georgia proper now from both S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Bizarre claims from the Russian side of capturing an African-American??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Russian 2S3s from NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Great pics. I love the skirts on the T-62. The fuel tanks on the KO'd '62 are interesting. Those things are supposed to be removed before action. I'm sure they're empty on the vehicle (or they probably would have burned up already). Thanks for sharing! "Meanwhile, Georgian and Western diplomatic officials said that Georgia had offered a cease-fire proposal to Russia, though Russian officials did not acknowledge receiving such an offer." Perhaps the Russians need an example of how they intend to "manage" territories in the "near abroad"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 One sidedness of coverage by Western media is apalling. I look through both, Russian and Western periodicals and news reports, and i must admit that Western reports remind me of old Soviet Channel 1 9 o'clock news (with "There is no war in Afghanistan. Troops are planting trees" kind of reports). Many Russian sources seem to provide a more objective coverage from both Gerogia and South Ossetia, will all sides given airtime. As of today, not a single Western reporter was actually inside South Ossetia, they all reported from Georgia). Journalist casualties inside S.Ossetia have been very high so far (1 turk+interpreter wounded, 2 Russian reporters dead, and 2 more wounded), however noone is actually stopping Western film crews from entering the region. I find it disturbing that Saaskashvili, who just carped bombed 2000 people, is getting so much airtime while educating the American public on perils of Georgia in the face of re-emerging Evil Empire. South Ossetia is not given any voice at all, Russia is silenced as well. Saaskashvili is very PR- friendly and easy to digest for Western media companies, with his perfect English, young charismatic appearance and Armani suits... The guy will probably do Larry King if he lives through that. When Russian side is shown, we see images of omnious tank columns crawling through the landscape and looping images of crying and bloodied Georgian grandmother. Less than 30 Georgian civilians died in Russian bombings so far (according to Georgian sources), and 2000 on South Ossetian side. So far Russian air force is doing miles ahead of NATO in similar environment, which managed to take out a whole train full of Serb civilians during Kosovo intervention (as well as purposefully bomb targets of economic significance inside Serbia). Criticizing Russia is fashionable, but before you do that - think of what would be an adequate response to 2000 of your country's citizens murdered in an overnight artillery barrage? Anyways, rambling about politics again.....apologies African-American = CIA? Instructor-observer? I would imagine CIA is VERY active in the region at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Hi, According the BBCs guys in the region the knocked out tanks the media often show… and did from day one… are in fact Georgian tanks that took part in the first effort ot seize S. Ossetia… All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Russia is not the Evil Empire. After what they went through in WWII, I think their...concern... with their borders is completely justified. Manipulating situations so military units can intervene is something the U.S. is exceptionally skilled. Remember Grenada? Nice easy operation for the U.S. to flex it's muscles and get much needed practice at invading countries. Oh, I mean, we had to save the children, my bad! It'll be interesting to see how US/UN/NATO politically reacts to this incident. Will the West have the political wherewithal to actually enforce anything *against* Russia? My guess is, probably not. Subsequently, US/NATO will be a little more ...delicate... with their political/military machinations in the "near abroad". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 akd, First shots I've ever seen of Russian bar armor! Wild configuration on the turret portion, but would imagine it's to prevent hard to defend against rear RPG shots during MOUT. Am surprised to see a T-62 in use by Russia, but I bet it's got DU, and I think I see a missile guidance box, meaning it's TLGM capable. The tank shown therefore likely outguns most, if not all, of its Georgian opponents, though it's not as well protected as that upgraded T-72 we saw the other day. The 2S3 deployment's a bit of a surprise, especially against a Grad armed foe--close together and in linear formation. OTOH, the vehicles are all buttoned, no personnel or ammunition is visible, likewise no survey equipment. My assessment therefore is that this unit can shoot and scoot. Further, it's hard to DF a flag signal! The physical closeness of the individual guns suggests the Russians a) won't be there when CB fire arrives; aren't concerned about it, or a) and c), the latter being are highly confident of their ability to near instantly smash anything the Georgians fire. The_Red_Rage, Generally speaking, our news here is garbage, with a few bright spots here and there. The Channel 13 11 p.m. news here in Los Angeles does a very good short summary of the world news, Asia and Latin America, at a stroke leaving its competitors in the local news in the dust. If you watched most of them, you'd hardly, save for the really big stories, know the rest of the world existed. This trend is NOT helped by ever increasing agglomeration of the media in the hands of a few highly vested interests. This is why I used to watch the BBC World News religiously, since it was, all in all, far more balanced and diverse than the homegrown stuff, but these days, the Beeb's got its own problems involving what it covers and how it does so. ISTR there was a scandal about this and a high level resignation in protest. Thank heavens for the Internet, despite its numerous defects, and thank heavens for the enormous diversity of our members! This has been extremely valuable to me in getting my head out of the U.S.A. centric clangor and into a more balanced position. I used to be a professional Soviet watcher, you might say, so tend to bring that perspective into such situations with me. This can be good, in that Russia is an extremely conservative country whose practices trace themselves back decades and even centuries. PVO Strany, for example, stemmed from first Russian, then Soviet, concerns over Zeppelin, Staaken and Gotha bomber attacks, eventually growing into a gigantic air defense system spanning eight time zones and girdling the heavens. OTOH, much has changed there, even if certain traditional interests and sensitivities have not. I think, too, many of the senior people in American media still perceive from a Cold War standpoint, and it certainly doesn't help that Putin was ex-KGB. I think it really plugs them in when he then (via his hand picked successor) acts/seems to act in ways reminiscent of those bad old days of yore. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 The Google map of Tskhinvali is super-detailed! Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Hi, leakyD posted… “Russia is not the Evil Empire. After what they went through in WWII, I think their...concern... with their borders is completely justified. Manipulating situations so military units can intervene is something the U.S. is exceptionally skilled. Remember Grenada? Nice easy operation for the U.S. to flex it's muscles and get much needed practice at invading countries. Oh, I mean, we had to save the children, my bad! It'll be interesting to see how US/UN/NATO politically reacts to this incident. Will the West have the political wherewithal to actually enforce anything *against* Russia? My guess is, probably not. Subsequently, US/NATO will be a little more ...delicate... with their political/military machinations in the "near abroad".” I do not normally do politics on CM forums… but I agree 100%..... It’s interesting that those who have read most about Russia and WWII often end up as Russophiles to some degree anyway, with some sympathy for Russia anyway… even those employed by the US and UK military to study Russia often end up the same way… There are good reasons for this.. All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Good post John, glad people are still keeping balanced perspectives. Some humor on the subject http://valleywag.com/5034988/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 A lot of pictures in this forum. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=31529 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Russian Forces still moving in. Reports of priority routing through S. Ossetia for Uragan MLRS. Russian troops ride atop armored vehicles near the village of Khurcha heading towards the border of Georgia in breakaway region of Abkhazia August 10, 2008. Russian troops on Monday issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces in a zone near the breakaway region of Abkhazia to disarm or face attack, but Georgia rejected the demand, Interfax news agency reported on Monday. Picture taken August 10, 2008 Spetsnaz GRU? Russian troops secure the area in the Khurcha settlement in breakaway region of Abkhazia Russian troops ride atop armored vehicles and trucks near the village of Khurcha in Georgia's breakaway province of Abkhazia Sunday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Should cause a few laughs as well http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.president/index.html#cnnSTCVideo (Saaskashvili ducking for cover video) http://trinixy.ru/2008/08/11/panika_saakashvili_4_shtuk__video.html The face is priceless; even funnier since it turned out that the sounds that scared El Presidente were made by Georgian artillery. CIA wannabe secret service creating traffic with their own vihicles is amusing as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Out of the fire and into the frying pan... Georgian soldiers arrive at an airbase in Tbilisi from Iraq, August 11, 2008. President Mikheil Saakashvili urged his Western allies to provide more than just moral support and aid to confront Russia in Georgia's conflict over the separatist region of South Ossetia. Hey look, peacekeeping SS-21s falling on Georgia proper... SIPRI says to Sweden's TV4 that they believe this is a Russian SS-21 (OTR-21) missile believed to have been used to deploy cluster munitions by the way the missile now looks. Likely shot from abkhazia into the port city P'ot'i 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpheart23 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Nice Marpat vest he has on there? Or is that a georgian camo pattern? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Nice Marpat vest he has on there? Or is that a georgian camo pattern? Nah its US stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Possibly reliable combat report from an embed with Russian forces. Events described seem to check out with other reports (claim by Georgia that they stopped first attack on Tshkinvali, report of wounded Russian general, composition of forces, Su-25 pilot fired on after bailing out, etc.): Btw this is from an article written by Irina Kuskenkova which was embedded with 58th army during initial faces of the operation Tranlsted by me http://www.mk.ru/blogs/MK/2008/08/10/society/365780/ -- In the morning 58th army set up its HQ's in Dhava. We are preparing for the assault on Tshinvalli. 693rd regiment under the command of the Lt.General Hrulev starts to move towards the town. After him come the fighters of the Chechen Battalion Vostok and 22nd brigade(GRU Spetsnaz). I follow after the Spetsnaz towards Tshinvalli. There is a panic on the road, from the town a large amount of refugees flee south. It means that assault have failed. ---------- But everything started very well. Our force closed onto the Tshinvalli and in the morning they were supposed to go into the town, but it dint, Georgian indirection was heavy. Su-25's, artillery, tanks and snipers. Its hard to pass throught that. General Hrulev was cautious, he was sending recon, tank groups, attacked firing points, but he dint advance because he had a minimal force. Meanwhile press was reporting that Russian troops captured Tshinvalli, while we dint. --------- During the first few morning ours we lost 2 trucks and one BMP because of the Georgian mortar fire. Every time we moved forward we received a heavy amount of fire on us. It was then the General gave the order to flank the Tshinvalli from South-East. It could be seen that he was not comfortable with the decision. But an order is an order. --------- An motorized battalion was sent forward, 30 BMP's, 3 BTR's and 2 tanks together with General Hrulev. We were promised that we would receive artillery fire from our old positions. Mission was to break the siege of the peacekeepers in Tshinvalli and to take control over a part of the town. We went ahead. -------- Tshinvalli met our battalion with silence, which is often "false". First kilometers were calm, recon went first to check the roads. They moved to the edge of the town and got into an ambush. At first the firefight did not concern us much, we took battlepostions. But just after 10 minutes we understood that the ambush was very serious. Our first part of the column was still advancing while under fire. Several BMP's were covering from behind. We suffered dozens of losses. Georgians suffered even more, but they were reinforced. ------- Then came the Georgian tanks. We were outnumbered. We started to fall back, what can a BMP do against a tank? Dozens of our vechiles were burning. Only 5 BMP's and 1 BTR returned. Battalion ceased to exist. ------- It was obvious that our attack was premature. Most of Russian vechiles weren't even close to Tshinvalli. Soldiers started to question the order - why did we need to charge? Why were we rushed. It was obvious that we lost this battle. ------- - It only helped the Georgians. It made it look like they were stronger then us, angry soldiers were saying. - We hoped for the best, but it turned out like always. ------- But even with the defeat Russian vehicles were moving forward. Hole night our artillery fired at the position of the Georgian forces. ------- -I hope that Russians wont leave us, say the Ossetias. In Dhaza that is most common question. ------- No, looks like Russians wont leave. Towards Tshinvalli a large Russian force was moving. -------- General Hrulev was wounded during the assault, so were the journalists from Kommsomolskaya Pravda and Rossia. -------- A Russian pilot arrived in Dhaza, hes jet was shot down. According to him it was Russian forces that shot it down and they were firing at him when he was landing with the parachute. He was asked why it happened. He said that he was asked if he was hostile or friendly and he dint answer. ---------- During the Sunday morning the town was divided in two parts, we held the northern part, while Georgians controlled the southern part. During the night all of the Georgian armour left the town, only snipers remained. From the peacekeeping outpost "Shangai" 200 peacekeepers tried to break the siege. Only 40 made it to Dhazva. During the day Georgian tanks attacked again. Battle continues. Looks like more Spetnaz: Russian troops arrived in the Khurcha settlement in the breakaway region of Abkhazia in western Georgia. Photo: Reuters Georgian soldiers on the road to Tbilisi, the capital, escaped a burning armored vehicle outside Gori on Monday. Georgian soldiers prayed with an Orthodox priest. Air attacks by Russian forces caused numerous casualties among the civilian population in Gori. Photo: Wojtek Grzedzinski/Napo Images 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Casualty figures in the report seem way too high. According to it 58th Army lost more armour than in ill-fated Grozny assault in 1995. Lol, just watching CNN right now... Russia is apparently deploying "Ecological saboteurs", which the brave president of Georgia discovered 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 A lot of pictures here. Who would've thought that chechen special forces would be taking part in this - now on Russian side! http://www.flickr.com/photos/theatrum-belli/sets/72157606625660548/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Earlier report from same Russian journalist above: by Irina Kuksenkova, MK Day One (August 8th) Friday night (8th) everyone was sitting on the floor of peacekeepers HQ. Soldiers and officers are along the walls. I am under the door of general Kulahmetov. After each explosion the ears are deaf. Arty fire is very heavy. Nervousness in HQ situation room. Orders are shouted alongside heavy swearing. - All personnel in barracks into the shelter now, to arms! - Shouts HQ - get a vest and helmet for the journalist lady! I am getting a bulletproof vest, smelling with heavy body odor, can't save from the bullet but against Grad (MRLS BM-21) or mortar shell its ok. Shelling stopped a bit. - They are reloading - comments one officer. - We have to hold until morning, ads another. Where the hell is our air support? - Ads the third. With eyes full of despair battalion dog Betty runs into the HQ and finds a spot among the peacekeepers. She always feels when the most intensive shellings are about to happen - comment the soldiers. There are 1700 peacekeepers here. Too few for the whole safety zone. They are on guard duty for 24 hours, and sleep for just 3 hours. - we need more men -says general Kulahmetov - You can see that we are short of men. The most astonishing is that after this monstrous shelling of a city official Tbilisi (that’s Georgia) calls the action - "retaliation for South-Osetian provocation and Russian aggression" Shelling re-starts. We are standing near the HQ entrance, A shell hits nearby. The peacekeepers commander and his HQ remove dust and debris from their uniform and go off to continue commencing the war. Extremely calm people they are. By 6 am Georgian forces repeat the shelling. Grad (MRLS BM-21) start hitting our position. We are getting first wounded by fragments. We are getting shot like targets at the range. Peacekeepers have no right to return fire. A one basket game. By 8 am the city of Tshkinvali was in flames and ruins. Houses destroyed, windows blown away. The presidential administration, MOD, parliament, university, hospital, school #3 buildings are destroyed by direct hits. Every second residential house is destroyed. The city is no more - just like Stalingrad. Communications are down. The cellular masts around the city are hit. Just before the mass attack organized caravans of women, children and elders left the town. Those remaining in town are hiding in the cellars, yet a lot of people just did not have time to find cover. Where is Moscow? We are getting butchered here, where the hell is our air force? - By morning it’s an ongoing talk among the officers. Suddenly a SU fighter jet turbine noise is heard in the distance. Hurrah! - The air force is here! Only after the fighters drop bombs on the town, everyone understands that those were Georgian fighters. Running from cover to cover we reach the mess hall. War is war, but breakfast is on schedule - puts the intendant. If anything duck! May get hit by burst wave, anyway - bon appetite! By 9 am info arrives that Georgians captured 2 South-Osetian villages and about to invade Tskhinvali. Which means that they are moving towards us. We also receive info that from Vladikavkkaz (Russian capital of North-Osetia) elements of the 58th Russian army are on the move to help us. The shelling continues. 10 am the HQ is hit by Grad MRLS salvo. In a blitz of a second all windows and doors are blown away. We got more wounded. I am sanding up from the floor and notice that one of the officers has blood running from his eye. The MRLS hit the communications vehicle, jeep, HQ building, barracks, sports hall. From now on the Georgians were carefully aiming for the peacekeepers. Peacekeeper stations report that Georgians are finishing off wounded and South-Osetian village of Hetagurovo was run over by tanks and leveled to the ground. No info on losses on our or Georgian side. We can only evaluate based on destroyed houses and bodies on the streets. The shelling goes on and on. By dinner time (in Russia around 1400) a stream of women, children and elderly starts arriving at the base. They are escorted to the bomb shelter. At some moment the military at the base understand that we are cut off. A fire is set near the HQ, with haste secret documents are burned with the help of gasoline, next step - from a PM pistol a secret suitcase is shot and coded comm. equipment is destroyed by a sledgehammer. Osetian militia takes the Georgian flag that along with Osetian and Russian flags symbolized the peacekeepers units and throws it into the fire. By 1500 Georgians stop the fire and declare safe passage from the city for civilians and journalists. -This is a lie. After the Georgian president Sakashvilli declared ceasefire and promised not to open fire we are under attack for 15 hours! – answers my question on safe passage one of the officers. And he is right. Less then in half and hour the Georgian artillery resumes shelling. A steady feeling that no escape is possible builds up. The only option left is to be captured by Georgians. Georgian tanks drive pass the base gates. One is destroyed by South-Osetian MOD minister general Barankevich. A recon team is planning to leave town. I asked to joint them. We leave Tskhinvali running from cover to cover around 19 pm. Georgian snipers are all around the town. By luck we reach the north outskirts of the city and enter the forest. We walk on for several hours. Legs are wet and knee deep in mud. We take a short stop. Shells are flying overhead. The most dangerous now are the Georgian diversionary groups. Recon guys tell that they have ammunition only for 1,30 h firefight. We were walking in the direction of Djawa, where our units are stationed and from where our arty is firing. We took a round-about to evade own shells. Road is covered with destroyed BMPs, Ural trucks, APCs. It took us 9 hours to reach Djawa. I am totally exhausted, the recon guys are used to this, I am not. The first 24 hour of war pass. She indeed seems to have, at the least, a propensity for exagerration ("just like Stalingrad!"), and taken all together, there is just something not quite right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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