John Kettler Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Debate rages on who started it, but Russia and Georgia are at war in South Ossetia. Not only is this, for our purposes, Red on Red, but it was very nearly Red on Blue, for we had 1000 Marines and soldiers in Georgia only last month training the military of that staunch U.S. ally. Efforts to contain this mess may or may not succeed. Footage I've seen shows Su-25s, ERA festooned tanks (T-80 BV?), BMPs, and 2S3s are all in the Russian column. Not sure what the Georgian are using, for the footage I saw was shot before the sun was really up, making IDs difficult. Unsurprisingly, civilian casualties, given cities are being attacked, are huge. http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/08/georgia-says-russian-aircraft-bombed-its-air-bases/ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080809/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Sounds like a good add-on module. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Theoretically it was Red on Blue for a while, if you consider Russian peacekeeping forces Blue (they were there under UN resolution). There is even a UN flag on the background http://lenta.ru/photo/2008/08/08/ossetia/6_Jpg.htm Russian tank columns did not enter South Ossetia until almost 20 hours into the fight, and by that time 12 peacekeepers died and 150 suffered injuries under Georgian shelling. U.S. should pick its allies more carefully. Saaskashvili is a nationalist and a warmonging lunatic. He single handedly distabilized an entire region, started a crazy bid for NATO (why oh why does a third world agrarian country need a NATO membership? will the Alliance make their goats more fertile?), and now is responsible for levelling a city (over 1400 dead reported). But he did contribute 2000 troops to Iraq... Funny picture (apparently it was used in hacker attacks on Georgian web-sites): http://img.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/defaced/picture.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 9, 2008 Author Share Posted August 9, 2008 The_Red_Rage, Interesting point re Russian peacekeepers (why Russian, given their dog in the hunt?), but for game purposes, still Red on Red. As for when Russia crossed the border and with what, I had little info and so indicated. If you study this country's history of whom it's backed and what it enabled/permitted/aided in the process, you'll find lots of people like the one you're decrying. Just start naming right wing dictators for starters. Sad, but true. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Apparently there were Russian, Georgian and even S. Ossetian peacekeepers. Who came up with that idea? edit: well...duh...the UN, of course. Silly me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I have been following news reports with great interest and it does seem to me that the Russians are the "good guys" in this one. Georgia appears to be behaving rather like the Serbs did over Kosovo - i.e. indiscriminate killing of S. Ossetia civilians, rumours of ethnic cleansing, denial of legitimate right of autonomy/independence for S. Ossetia, etc. The parallels are quite remarkable, given that S. Ossetia is predominantly Muslim, just as Kosovo is. The Russians are claiming a "double standard" in America's attitude, and to some extent I have to agree with them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Uhm, the Russian forces in South Ossetia have to my knowledge never been part of a UN force. There's UNOMIG in Abkhazia which is a few observers only. No large scale deployment of forces. Flag in the picture doesn't look like UN flag, too dark and lacking the logo. And hanging below the Russian flag? Big no-no. Nor are the troops displaying a UN logo. Good to see the good old propaganda machine of Mother Russia hasn't unlearned it's lessons. If you think Russia didn't pull the strings on this conflict you are incredibly naive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Good to see the good old propaganda machine of Mother Russia hasn't unlearned it's lessons. If you think Russia didn't pull the strings on this conflict you are incredibly naive. I admit I don't have much information to go on but that's not the same as being naive. I'm eager to find out more so I can voice an informed opinion but from initial reports it does look like upwards of a thousand civilians have been killed by Georgian artillery firing indiscriminately into the S. Ossetian capital. Is this in dispute? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Sorry, that post was more aimed at Red Rage then you. I still hold that Russia is pulling the string. The Russians and their proxies kept needling till the Georgians reacted. Rather crudely and short-sightedly I might add. As for the amount of dead in the shelling... There are about 70.000 people in the entire region, probably even less. With that in mind killing 1400 in one go seems like l33t skillz. Haven't seen images of the town that shows widespread devastation either. Oh, I don't deny something ugly just happened, but I scoff at the claims of 1000+ dead. Not even close, I reckon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 1500+ dead at the moment. Tskhinvali (capital) is completely levelled by Georgian heavy artillery. South Ossetia and Abkhazia, in legal terms, have as much right to idependance as Kosovo did. Now, Albanians were "freedom fighters", "friends on the U.S.", "victimized people", while the Serbs were "war criminals", "baby eaters" and who can forget "ethnic cleansers". In case with Kosovo, not entire population wanted to separate from Serbia, however those wanting to stay in were quickly silenced and put into Serb ethnic enclaves. In case with Abkhazia - they all 100% support separation from Georgia. In case with S.Ossetia - they all 100% support serparation from Georgia and annexation to Russia. Since i am a product of evil Russian propaganda (while living and having served in Canada...), help me understand here - how are Georgians justified? Shell a civilian city into the ground at the start of the Olympic games, bombard the hell out of peacekeeper positions, and then call on to the world community to "help Georgia to defend against Russian imperialism". So yeah, double standards everywhere... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Came across a link that you might find informative. Saves me a lot of typing. Separatist have themselves to blame for allowing themselves to be used as pawns in a Russian bid for dominance. Show me pictures of 1500+ dead and a completely levelled Tskhinvali. I'm more then a little inclined to believe these claims are grossly overblown. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpheart23 Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Interesting link there elmar. Good read. I was also paying attention to one of those big news agencies here in the ol usa (won't name it, don't like it), anyways, um...Georgia is asking for assistance from the U.S. to redeploy it's troops from iraq back to georgia via airlift. Could be interesting to see how this thing plays out over the next week or so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 My question still stands - how is this any different from what NATO did in Kosovo? Strategic goal was separation and weakening of Serbia, means were KLA (with a general image of Albanians as "opressed peoples" created by the media), and the execution was done by NATO planes with a fluffy PR campaign on the background. Witness reports confirm almoast 100% destruction of the city. There is no gas, running water or electricity. It's abit cynical to not listen to the voices of people who got out of there. If you think in military terms - Georgians had been bombarding the place for over 12 hours, they opened fire at night by a relative surprise, bombardment took place grid by grid without any precision (BM-21s are not the tools for surgical strikes). Now 1400 casualties seems conservative for a scenario like this. Pictures will follow I'm sure, it's only day 2 of the conflict. Btw, in regards to the article - wanting a NATO membership and selling out your national identity to U.S. national interests doesn't make the government pro-Western. Saaskaashvili has a VERY spotty human rights record, there is no deomacracy to speak of, and generally Georgian society is based on "teyps" (or clans). "Pro-Western" is a state of society as a whole, not ambitions of a petty dictator to get free guns at the expense of Western taxpayer. I think it's the new trend with entire third world now to want to join NATO... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 It does seem that Georgia fired BM-21 "Grad" 122mm rocket artillery into the city for a sustained period in the middle of the night when people would have been asleep in their beds. Any student of Combat Mission should know that 122mm multiple rocket launchers are not nice to be on the receiving end of. If this is true, then it would not surprise me at all if large areas of the city were destroyed and casualties were in the hundreds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Hi, Guys… leave the politics out of it… if you don’t all that will happen is that the thread is locked and any discussion of the military and related CMSF side of the events will be lost to us. Am a Russophile through and through so you know who’s side I am on…. I have always been perplexed as why anyone is anti-Russian… showing with the odd bit of spin your interests and where your sympathies are is fine… I could list the sympathies of all the old hands on this forum..… but if you discus the politics it will end with the subject being lost to us… Stick to the military side of things… and we can go on discussing the topic. I can tell you that if you use the correct set of foliage, ground cover and such CMSF builds a very good representation of Georgia… I am building some Battle for the Ukraine 2010 games and the terrain/maps in CMSF looks just as it does on the TV pictures I have just seen of Gori… and surrounding area. All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Erm, the Serbs had a VERY recent history of violent oppression and genocide when the Kosovo conflict began. The Georgians are pretty tame by comparison. Note also that in Georgia it were the separatist that started ethnically cleansing their eras. The Serbs were complete douchebags for almost a decade. And then the chickens came home to roost. They had themselves to blame. Not that I won't admit NATO got suckered by the KLA. But it took very little convincing. Believing witnesses? Hell no! Not in a politically charged environment like this. Remember, that Romanian mass grave during their revolution? Random people dug up from their churchyard graves. Babies dragged out of their incubator in Kuwait? A lie told by the daughter of their ambassador. And I wouldn't believe any news from the Palestinian Territories if I were you. People are playing the long game for high stakes. Shoving a few persons with a tale in front of the camera is childsplay. Ask yourself: All that destruction and mass death yet even Russian propaganda can't get images of it, does that sound right? Georgian democracy and human rights record not so hot? Try the Russians! No? How about the South Ossetians? Abkhazia? No again? Gosh! Saakhasvili is a serious improvement on Shervernadze, though that's not hard by any standard. He seems to be setting news standards for the region though, from what I hear. And with the Russian bully next door, I'd want to be in a powerful defence pact too. Almost every neighbour of Russia does too. and why is that a problem for you anyway. NATO members buy their own guns btw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I'm all for leaving politics out of this thread. I have no great feelings for either side and am just going on news reports. If these paint the impression that Georgia has committed some kind of atrocity by reducing a city to rubble with rockets, I naturally side with the Russians. If this later proves false, I will happily side with the Georgians. I don't have any axe to grind. Just as a matter of interest I loaded up "Rock around the Block" in the editor and gave Blue side 6 BM-21s. Whilst the buildings were largely intact after two barrages, the whole map was covered in medium-sized craters. If the reports are true, I can well believe the figure of 1000 dead. The rockets fall so fast that if you were in bed when the attack began you wouldn't have time to get in your basement. Surprise with such weapons would be pretty lethal IMHO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 This is pretty crazy when you think about it: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Wtf is that? looks like a turret of a BMP1 or something small like that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmoney Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 1500+ dead at the moment. Tskhinvali (capital) is completely levelled by Georgian heavy artillery. South Ossetia and Abkhazia, in legal terms, have as much right to idependance as Kosovo did. Now, Albanians were "freedom fighters", "friends on the U.S.", "victimized people", while the Serbs were "war criminals", "baby eaters" and who can forget "ethnic cleansers". In case with Kosovo, not entire population wanted to separate from Serbia, however those wanting to stay in were quickly silenced and put into Serb ethnic enclaves. In case with Abkhazia - they all 100% support separation from Georgia. In case with S.Ossetia - they all 100% support serparation from Georgia and annexation to Russia. Since i am a product of evil Russian propaganda (while living and having served in Canada...), help me understand here - how are Georgians justified? Shell a civilian city into the ground at the start of the Olympic games, bombard the hell out of peacekeeper positions, and then call on to the world community to "help Georgia to defend against Russian imperialism". So yeah, double standards everywhere... I agree, I think Clinton and his staff were wrong for attacking the Serbs. But how can you imply that this isn’t Russian imperialism? This state which is part of Georgia wants to separate its self and be annexed by the Russians correct? I’m sure the Russians had no part in encouraging this behavior. The term “peacekeeper” is also a misstatement. Protecting a state stolen from another country shouldn’t be defined as peacekeeping. This whole thing is over an oil pipeline anyway isn’t it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Red_Rage Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Interesting articles on the subject: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4486297.ece http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/russia.georgia http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia1 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/world/europe/09georgia.html?_r=1&oref=slogin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 "Since then Russia has made clear in word and deed that it will do anything to prevent Nato’s expansion on its western and southern flanks." I think we'll be seeing a LOT more of these types of actions as NATO (aka U.S.) tries to rolls up as many countries as possible into their organization. So, when's the Russian Module coming out again? Oh, and please make sure we get to play with these: http://milparade.udm.ru/25/034.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 I understand now why there were Russian peacekeepers, Georgian one and South Ossetians, too, but I was under the impression UN peacekeepers were invariably drawn from disinterested parties. None of the above could rationally be so construed. Someone had asked in either this thread or another whether a vid showing a night MRL launch in which the prolonged firing came from a single launcher was Grad (Hail), and I so confirm. Takes a bit to clear 40 tubes. Couldn't possibly have been the BM-27 or the BM-28--way too many rockets launched, with too small a noise and rocket flame signature. Nice BTR-T article at link, but how do they get out of what I'll call the Russian Achazarit, since that's obviously whence the inspiration came? Believe you'll all find this of interest, seeing as how it relates the Russian assessment of the revealing clash between Hezbollah, armed with an array of antitank weaponry up through Kornet E, and the IDF, to include the then latest Merkava versions. As you can see my the cover date, it's hot off the press! http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2007/item2/item1/ Has anyone seen any evidence of guided munition usage by any party in the fray that we're principally discussing? Have pretty much decided the earlier reports of Georgian missile usage referred to BM-21 only, rather than, say, FROG-7 (Luna-M) or SS-21 (Tochka). Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodkin Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 From a CMSF scenario design point of view the Georgians should be pretty easy to replicate, nothing more modern than t-72's and BMP-2s don't know what kind of ATGM capacity they have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 From a CMSF scenario design point of view the Georgians should be pretty easy to replicate, nothing more modern than t-72's and BMP-2s don't know what kind of ATGM capacity they have. To be fair, some Georgian T-72s do have some fairly modern capabilities above and beyond the T-72M baseline, thanks to the addition of Israeli eletronics. T-72 SIM-1 - New FALCON command and control system, GPS navigation system and new thermal device. It has also a friend-or-foe recognition system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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