Russian Tanks Invade Georgia

[Wilhammer]

Yeah, the Ukraine would be a tough nut to crack. I don't expect an attack or anything like that at the present time but it may be the ultimate far reaching goal.

Yes, and I do agree it is one ultimate goal, to scare them into 'obedience', but will it work?

The people of the Ukraine might not like that. Protests could happen if they felt anything real come of it, and depending on how widespread and reported they are, a political threat to Moscow.

I am reminded of the 56 Suez crisis - Britain's last Imperial gasp - and a gross miscalculation, though certainly the folly of 56 was realized much faster.

[Wilhammer]

Listening to a lot of strong talk on the Right wing talk shows .A Caller said the US should put a couple of Carrier Groups in the Black sea to intimadate the Russians.Now I know this would never happen but if the turks gave us clearance how long could Us carrier groups last in the black see if the Russian tried to take them out ?

Boy, might as well send a division of troops into the area.

Sending a carrier group there, militarily, would not be too different than dealing with being in the Persian Gulf - we would have to be willing to shoot Russian stuff down and destroy any threatening systems and bases - Gulf of Tonkin, WW3 style.

How long would it last, the Carrier Group? I bet it could hold out quite well, but with casualties.

One can be certain we WON'T go there.

[Ivan Drago]

There was agreat gold medal judo match yesterday beyween a Russian and a Georgian. Talk about a grudge match.

Georgia won.

I agree Judo doesn't seem to be very interesting - no punching or kicking? wtf?

I'd like to see the victor take on this rowdy little fellow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwVYtFBRtrE

Fedor is the true beast from the east, though actually born in Ukraine he identifies himself as Russian. Doubt we'll see MMA in the Olympics any time soon though...

[Abbott]

I agree Judo doesn't seem to be very interesting - no punching or kicking? wtf?

Yeah, Olympic judo isn't judo.

[Stalins Organ]

How long would it last, the Carrier Group? I bet it could hold out quite well, but with casualties.

One can be certain we WON'T go there.

Carriers are specifially not allowed through the Dardanelles/Bosphorus by the 1936 treaty that governs the straights.

[JonS]

http://www.turkishpilots.org.tr/ingilizcedernek/DOCUMENTS/montro.html

[Dogface]

Yeah, Olympic judo isn't judo.

Yes it is. What would make it not Judo?

[Affentitten]

Yeah, the Ukraine would be a tough nut to crack.

Ukraine is weak. It is feeble.

I was pleased when I heard the news that Rice was being sent...

Well with her background at least she might have a clue about Russia. Quite different to her dilettantism in the Middle East.

[Abbott]

Ukraine is weak. It is feeble.

Look wider. The Ukraine being bordered by several NATO countries would enable a military presence as a deterrent.

[Abbott]

Yes it is. What would make it not Judo?

Heh, pain.

[Dogface]

The sport of Judo is not about pain. It is about mastering the techniques and to use said techniques to throw one's opponent to the ground, immobilize or otherwise subdue one's opponent with a grappling maneuver, or force an opponent to submit by joint locking the elbow or by applying a choke.

[John Kettler]

In no particular order...

If the Beeb says both Washington and London "counseled" Georgia not to move, I'm inclined to believe that statement, but I will do some checking of my own. If true, it merely means that Friedman wasn't thorough in his Stratfor article listing of possible reasons why things happened the way they did, rather than missing something major.

In other news, we're getting wildly varying reports about where the Russian forces are appearing, despite the cease fire. From what I've seen on the Net, not only was Poti lightly bombed (one report claimed every vessel there was sunk), but locals are reporting Russian ground forces in the area, this one of several such sightings in places the Russians say they're not. Predictably, they're officially denied.

A friend who caught the international news (suspect CNN) reports their tanks are moving around an awful lot, considering hostilities have supposedly ceased. For my money, it looks like the rock soup method of occupying territory, with the diplomatic action providing the perfect media distraction. Besides, it's more fun to negotiate that way!

As for judo, they don't call it a martial art for nothing. It was originally designed so an unarmed samurai, in armor, could disable or kill a fully armed foe in short, vicious hand-to-hand combat. Recommend anyone interested watch the Human Weapon judo segment on YouTube. Brutal! It's on the same page as the Georgia-Russia judo match link given earlier.

Regards,

John Kettler

[von Lucke]

There was agreat gold medal judo match yesterday beyween a Russian and a Georgian. Talk about a grudge match.

Georgia won.

Not familiar with the 1956 Olympics water polo match between Hungary and USSR?

Blood in The Water

The Olympics has always been analogous to war --- it's just more obvious at times.

Or perhaps NATO doesn't want Georgia, since they'd been warning them against precisely this kind of action for a couple of years now - why would you want to admit a loose cannon which you can't actually defend?

Yes, why would an organization formed for the specific purpose of uniting in common defense against an emergent USSR, want to admit a member they might have to defend against an emergent Russia? Boggles the mind, it does!

[Abbott]

The sport of Judo is not about pain. It is about mastering the techniques and to use said techniques to throw one's opponent to the ground, immobilize or otherwise subdue one's opponent with a grappling maneuver, or force an opponent to submit by joint locking the elbow or by applying a choke.

Yeah, submission wrestling, as was said earlier, it's pretty boring.

[Dogface]

Um no John, Judo was developed by Kano Jigoro in the late 1880s to early 1900s well after the Samurai left the scene. I think you are mistaking it for Jujutsu.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Does anybody know any credible Ukrainian sources about recent events and their significance on the World Peace?

[Abbott]

If the Beeb says both Washington and London "counseled" Georgia not to move,

I viewed the Georgian President on CNN a few minutes ago, he looked scared.

[costard]

Terrified, in fact. And the footage of him diving for cover when the planes went overhead is instructive as to his character too.

I see BP has closed off its pipeline in the region (BBC 13/8/08) - this is possibly a continuation of the scrap between it and the Russia.

I can't see anyone maintaining supply into Georgia, except the Russians. And I can't see the US having any success at all with the Iran mess if they get Russia offside. It looks like the neo-cons have overplayed their hand (again, what a surprise) - support for a inept regime in return for a share of the oil wealth, fantasies and promises of the US riding to the rescue prompting a particularly stupid course of action on the part of the Georgians.

I don't know if I have this correct - Stalin shipped a large part of the Ossetian populace to Siberia in return for their support of the Nazis in WWII, the replacement populace being mostly ethnic Russians. With their return, a recipe for conflict and the provision of the justification (for the Russians) to move in with the military?

[costard]

Terrified, in fact. And the footage of him diving for cover when the planes went overhead is instructive as to his character too.

I see BP has closed off its pipeline in the region (BBC 13/8/08) - this is possibly a continuation of the scrap between it and the Russia.:confused:

I can't see anyone maintaining supply into Georgia, except the Russians. And I can't see the US having any success at all with the Iran mess if they get Russia offside. It looks like the neo-cons have overplayed their hand (again, what a surprise) - support for a inept regime in return for a share of the oil wealth, fantasies and promises of the US riding to the rescue prompting a particularly stupid course of action on the part of the Georgians.

I don't know if I have this correct - Stalin shipped a large part of the Ossetian populace to Siberia in return for their support of the Nazis in WWII, the replacement populace being mostly ethnic Russians. With their return, a recipe for conflict and the provision of the justification (for the Russians) to move in with the military?

[John Kettler]

Dogface,

Nyet! Kano Jigoro developed judo after first intensively studying jujutsu. I quote this Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo

"Founder pursues jujutsu

Kano was a small, frail boy, who, even in his twenties, did not weigh more than a hundred pounds (45 kg), and was often picked on by bullies. He first started pursuing jujutsu, at that time a dying art[4], at the age of 17, but met with little success. This was in part due to difficulties finding a teacher who would take him on as a student. When he went to university to study literature at the age of 18, he continued his martial arts studies, eventually gaining a referral to Fukuda Hachinosuke (c.1828–c.1880), a master of the Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū and grandfather of Keiko Fukuda (born 1913), who is Kano's only surviving student, and the highest-ranking female jūdōka in the world. Fukuda Hachinosuke is said to have emphasized technique over formal exercise, sowing the seeds of Kano's emphasis of free practice (randori) in judo."

Resuming the narrative

"Full of new ideas, Kano had in mind a major reformation of jujutsu, with techniques based on sound scientific principles, and with focus on development of the body, mind and character of young men in addition to development of martial prowess. At the age of 22, when he was just about to finish his degree at the University, Kano took nine students from Iikubo's school to study jujutsu under him at the Eisho-ji, a Buddhist temple in Kamakura, and Iikubo came to the temple three days a week to help teach. Although two years would pass before the temple would be called by the name "Kodokan", or "place for teaching the way", and Kano had not yet been accorded the title of "master" in the Kitō-ryū, this is now regarded as the Kodokan's founding.

Judo[5] was originally known as Kano Jiu-Jitsu or Kano Jiu-Do, and later as Kodokan Jiu-Do or simply Jiu-Do or Judo. In the early days, it was also still referred to generically simply as Jiu-Jitsu.[6]"

Here's how Wiki defines the origin of the very jujutsu Kano Jigoro worked so hard to master.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu

"Today, the systems of unarmed combat that were developed and practiced during the Muromachi period (1333–1573) are referred to collectively as Japanese old-style jujutsu (日本古流柔術, Nihon koryū jūjutsu?). At this period in history, the systems practiced were not systems of unarmed combat, but rather means for an unarmed or lightly armed warrior to fight a heavily armed and armored enemy on the battlefield. In battle, it was often possible for a samurai to be unable to use his long sword, for various reasons, and be forced to rely on his short sword, dagger, or bare hands. When fully armored, the effective use of such "minor" weapons necessitated the employment of grappling skills.

Methods of combat (as just mentioned above) included striking (kicking and punching), throwing (body throws, joint-lock throws, unbalance throws), restraining (pinning, strangulating, grappling, wrestling) and weaponry. Defensive tactics included blocking, evading, off-balancing, blending and escaping. Minor weapons such as the tanto (dagger), ryufundo kusari (weighted chain), kabuto wari (helmet smasher), and kakushi buki (secret or disguised weapons) were almost always included in Sengoku jujutsu."

Thus, judo is a reformulation, revitalization and gentling of an ancient and often deadly

system of unarmed combat for the warrior, on the battlefield.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

It seems things are not the best in the modern Russian Army. The hazings during the Cold War were routine, appalling and well covered by the likes of both Suvorov (INSIDE THE SOVIET ARMY) and Cockburn (THE THREAT: Inside the Soviet Military Machine), to name but two, but this is in leagues that would make Kafka squirm. Not for the squeamish!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6356707.stm

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/13/russian-soldiers-sold-for-sex/

No idea how this plugs into the calculation for Correlation of Forces, but it's certainly significant.

Regards,

John Kettler

P.S.

Elmar Bijlsma,

Sure hope you're right about BFC's coolness.

[Affentitten]

Not familiar with the 1956 Olympics water polo match between Hungary and USSR?

Yes, I'm quite familiar with it, thanks. I was thinking about it when I made the post.

[Dogface]

Exactly John, Judo was not "originally designed so an unarmed samurai, in armor, could disable or kill a fully armed foe in short, vicious hand-to-hand combat." It was designed by Kano Jigoro so he could beat Fukushima Kanekichi who was a Jujutsu senior student. See that is the problem with some of your research, you seem to like to twist a definition to meet what you think is the truth. Judo is a Gendai budō meaning a modern Martial Art from Japan. Modern in this case being after the late 1860s.

[John Kettler]

Dogface,

I see the problem now. I therefore amend it to read: "The martial art from which judo is derived, and in which the founder of judo trained rigorously before developing judo, was deliberately designed...." Wasn't trying to twist anything.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sneaksie]

So much for 'no politics' forum...

Anyway, http://www.nebog.com/truthaboutwar.htm