Forests and Fortifications

[RockinHarry]

Still waiting for Kalypso version of the Uber patch so...

did anybody try to create more "realistic" landscapes yet, particularly forested areas? (..to get rid of that park landscape looks)

Fortifications? Trenches or foxholes that better integrate (camouflage) with the landscape tiles?

Improved positions for heavy weapons? (..the netted sandbag thingy is the worst I´ve seen in my life )

I´ll try myself once I have the correct version uber patch and learned the editors, but want to know about public progress!

[Gnasher]

How about this?

Unfortunatley there's a limited number of object to work with. Forests are quite easy to make in builder.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Gnasher:

How about this?

Unfortunatley there's a limited number of object to work with. Forests are quite easy to make in builder.

Well, that´s what I see in the game NOW and what I´m talking about further above!

I´ll try to be more detailed:

#1: The trenches

Currently look like flat versions as used in WW1 (which were at least 1-2 meters deeper). What I have in mind is better camouflaged and smaller trenches as shown here and elsewhere:

Trenches Video

The german training video show well what I mean.

#2: The heavy weapons positions.

Never seen something like that except maybe for rear area gun positions and no enemy air attack hazards. Wonder who did use all that sandbag crap, that is totally out of place other than desert warfare or at places where you can´t dig! (urban terrain)

I understand that the ToW heavy weapons position is more a "one fits all" type, but current looks are totally unrealistic. The above shown video also shows how it´s about to look more realistically, at least at the frontlines.

#3 Forests.

What I mean is the ground textures at places where more than just 1 tree is standing. By now in ToW it looks all grassy, which causes the annoying "park" looks. Also there´s noticable differences for all pine or deciduous tree composed forests. Generally forested areas need darker underlying ground textures. Another issue I have with various stock maps is the general tree composition on maps. I.E pine trees seldomly grow singledly unless in mountainous regions.

[RockinHarry]

Another german training video showing "russian" AT infantry battling german Panthers from improved positions:

[Gnasher]

Agree on points 1 & 2

Forests are just a matter of placement in builder.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Gnasher:

Agree on points 1 & 2

Forests are just a matter of placement in builder.

If I can use appropiate textures in the updated builder, that would be a quick improvement really! I could probably reuse some my stuff I made for CMAK.

[RockinHarry]

Also beeing a CoD and RO player, I notice the ToW team was somewhat "inspired" by these games, when it comes to trenches and sandbag stuff.

Is the trenches hardcoded in the game when it comes to width? If one creates smaller ones (in 3D MAX), do the path finding routines will have trouble when infantry is to move into or through them? Other issues?

The heavy weapons pit: A small earthen berm and a bit of foliage would do the trick way better IMO. I assume when placed in that IP, a unit gains some defense benefits? (..can´t recall if I had read something in the manual)

The wire and AT obstacles are another issue, but it´s more of a problem how (and WHERE)a scenario maker places them.

[Gnasher]

Could also do with a few camoflage objects like tree branches etc that can be placed against/around fortifications to conceal them from the enemy.

What would be even cooler would be a "Camoflage" button for AFVs or AT guns (i.e anything crewed,) where the unit remains stationary (Hold Position) & there are crew aminmations for culling & placing branches & foliage around the AFV or AT gun thus making it nigh invisible to the enemy.

[Nikki Mond]

I did not see any leaf-less trees in the map editor. Contributes to the park-land effect. Need a few dead trees, to mix it up especially when using the full foliage autumn trees.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Gnasher:

Could also do with a few camoflage objects like tree branches etc that can be placed against/around fortifications to conceal them from the enemy.

What would be even cooler would be a "Camoflage" button for AFVs or AT guns (i.e anything crewed,) where the unit remains stationary (Hold Position) & there are crew aminmations for culling & placing branches & foliage around the AFV or AT gun thus making it nigh invisible to the enemy.

Good idea! As long as camouflage measures adapt to the local terrain as would require wheat, woods, brush, high grass, trash woods/rubble ect. That surely would be quite an innovative feature, no other game I know of would have.

That´s the reason why the improved positions/trenches look so totally out of place in ToW.

[Nikki Mond]

Its possible to piece together battle trenches or even little 1 man fox holes out of the ends. Still looks too obvious, and should be part of the fog of war. But they serve a purpose.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Nikki Mond:

Its possible to piece together battle trenches or even little 1 man fox holes out of the ends. Still looks too obvious, and should be part of the fog of war. But they serve a purpose.

Yes that would help some.

However, the basic looks are only appropiate for static front fortifications and/or soft soil terrain, due to the shown wooden boards in use. More common materials would be fascines made of local material as branches ect.

Also the position of fortifications is most important. What I´ve seen in most scenarios just portrays that the designers had no idea about general guide lines for placement of trenches or improved position.

To give some ideas; camouflage comes first and then field of fire. Also trenches need to be adapted to local terrain contours and features; IE along edges of fields, using natural ditches and every measure that provide means of camouflage, particularly from aireal observation.

Your screenshot also shows that no use of shadows is made to conceal the trench position more.

well...this is all looks only, but even when the game does not really consider all these measures within the game mechanics, it simply looks better and plays more realistic.

Some reuasable feature from Combat Mission game could be to require fortifications to become detected first. Also some CM terrain (well..just the dirt roads I think) changes color depending upon weather and ground condition (dry or wet). Dry (non grassy) soil off course is lighter in color most of the time, but depends on the basic tone ect.

Well,....I keep dreaming....

[Nikki Mond]

The type 2 trenches do not have the wood planking on the interior. Look a little more natural. Here's a 2 man trench. The mounding sides are large because I believe the ground would clip through. If I could extract the texture might be able to give it a better pattern and colour.

Also Ive seen pics of the Russian trenches dug before operation zitadel and they do not look so unlike what is in the game. True about the locations.

[SlapHappy]

That doesn't look too bad...now what is needed is a "static" trench piece(s) that let us insert the HMG's and the AT guns....and eventually mortars.

It would be even better if some of these fortifications had concrete elements and overhead coverage.

In other words we need some more defensive static types from 1C...or an avenue to at least create them that doesn't rely on a 3ds MAX $6000 modelling package.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Nikki Mond:

The type 2 trenches do not have the wood planking on the interior. Look a little more natural. Here's a 2 man trench. The mounding sides are large because I believe the ground would clip through. If I could extract the texture might be able to give it a better pattern and colour.

Also Ive seen pics of the Russian trenches dug before operation zitadel and they do not look so unlike what is in the game. True about the locations.

Yes, me too discovered the non planked version in a polish scenario (..or campaign?), altough over size stays the same. The shown 2 man "trench" would be appropiate for a medium mortar team, or if not that deep, also a gun. Did you try fitting a german MG34/42 in?

Yes, if the trenches were of the "hasty" sort or within a plowed field, the textures might work too. Russians were masters of camouflage, as were well educatiated german and soldiers of other armies, so camouflaged trenches/improved postions could be assumed to be the general standard.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

That doesn't look too bad...now what is needed is a "static" trench piece(s) that let us insert the HMG's and the AT guns....and eventually mortars.

It would be even better if some of these fortifications had concrete elements and overhead coverage.

In other words we need some more defensive static types from 1C...or an avenue to at least create them that doesn't rely on a 3ds MAX $6000 modelling package.

Yes, I would try to mod some, but what is needed to know, is the trnches hardcoded in any way? As can be seen the trench meshes "subtract" from the ground mesh and I can imagine there´s certain rules to get the "subtracting" work properly! Minimum mesh size might be the keyword and that might also explain the over size (too wide) of the trenches!

Another point would be; do the path finding routines work for smaller trenches? No idea how collision checking is handled, but I can imagine wider trenches make things a bit easier.

Bunker types: Log bunkers would be more appropiate in every situation, particularly at the eastern front or forrested areas.

Concrete pillbox types as the german "Regelbau" of the Siegfried line would be nice too have. Did research the hurtgen forest battles much, so could jump right into scenario designe with them.

But...still need to wait for the Kalypso uber patch version.

[Narses]

Great thread on TOW's trenches. These COD type trenches might've been behind the beaches in Normandy or in Citadel but seldom any place else except maybe Sevastopol,Leningrad, Moscow. Too WW1 looking.

It would really be nice to have those trenches as depicted in "Men Against Tanks" as well. They are narrow, in part, to defend against tanks easily knocking them in I believe.

'RockinHarry' - I seem to remember you from Panzer Elite. I worked on the Ostpak mod helping with about 40 of their scenarios. Glad to come across you again.

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Narses:

Great thread on TOW's trenches. These COD type trenches might've been behind the beaches in Normandy or in Citadel but seldom any place else except maybe Sevastopol,Leningrad, Moscow. Too WW1 looking.

It would really be nice to have those trenches as depicted in "Men Against Tanks" as well. They are narrow, in part, to defend against tanks easily knocking them in I believe.

'RockinHarry' - I seem to remember you from Panzer Elite. I worked on the Ostpak mod helping with about 40 of their scenarios. Glad to come across you again.

I believe those are referred to as "slit" trenches.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Narses:

Great thread on TOW's trenches. These COD type trenches might've been behind the beaches in Normandy or in Citadel but seldom any place else except maybe Sevastopol,Leningrad, Moscow. Too WW1 looking.

It would really be nice to have those trenches as depicted in "Men Against Tanks" as well. They are narrow, in part, to defend against tanks easily knocking them in I believe.

'RockinHarry' - I seem to remember you from Panzer Elite. I worked on the Ostpak mod helping with about 40 of their scenarios. Glad to come across you again.

Yes, did that infamous never publicly released B41 Panzer Elite mod, although Andy McGee adapted it to Ostpak I think anytime in the past. Re ToW forest, I would proceed as I tried in the B41 mod, with more realistic looking and behaving forest ground tiles.

What was you nick name over in Ostpak team?

[uberGeezer]

Too WW1 looking.

What was you nick name over in Ostpak team? [/QB]

Hi, Harry. Narses and I have stayed in touch and keep looking for a good combined arms sim to mod. He is currently learning the TOW editors while I am learning how to use 3dsMax. Below are some Max concepts where I attempt to avoid the mechanical-looking regularity that you have complained about - where the trees look like lollipops and the emplacements look like boxes.

[Stoppelhopser]

Most interesting thread.

uberGeezer: Excellent work. Like your fortifications and the MarderIII. Would love to see that in game.

[RockinHarry]

Surprise! Great to see you still beeing active, Geezer! :cool: Not long ago I noticed some your other works for CoD (cooperative work with some level designer I think), or was it RO too? However, ..I´m still waiting for the Kalypso patch version to get started with the editors too, but I´m yet somewhat in doubt if that modding as shown above would work in ToW and also some of the game mechanics are not that advanced as one would have hoped for a combined arms game. But it´s worth a try for sure.

ToW seems to offer lots of scripting possibilities just as Panzer Elite did and If 1C keep working more towards a serious sim, an advanced version might just be what we were waiting for so long! :cool:

wish you nice weekend

[uberGeezer]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

Surprise! but I´m yet somewhat in doubt if that modding as shown above would work in ToW and also some of the game mechanics are not that advanced as one would have hoped for a combined arms game. But it´s worth a try for sure.

Yes, the concepts shown above may be too complex for TOW? But, they do show how to avoid the park-like appearance that you complained about. Probably the single best thing to remember when creating terrain objects or laying out a game level, is to make things look "messy" and non-symmetrical.

Who is developing the Kalypso patch? - the developers or a third party?

[uberGeezer]

Originally posted by Stoppelhopser:

Most interesting thread.

uberGeezer: Excellent work. Like your fortifications and the MarderIII. Would love to see that in game.

Narses suggested that TOW needed a Marder, and I already had one started. Unfortunately, the sample TOW Max tank model - a Sherman - crashes Max to the desktop, so I don't know what is required to make a TOW model.

[Stoppelhopser]

Unfortunately, the sample TOW Max tank model - a Sherman - crashes Max to the desktop, so I don't know what is required to make a TOW model.

Too bad. Hopefully Sneaksie finds this thread and can help. Not many TOW owners have MAX (I can only afford the free Blender) I suspect and your work is lovely.