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Ammo data Modifications?


oragus

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Anyone know how to convert this data to real world numbers? This is the 37mm_pzgr_39t_(ap).ini file from the data\ammo\ger directory. I have come across on numberous occassions while playing that these rounds do not penetrate the armor that they should and many others. Most of the early german early stuff don't penetrate what they should. Hit after hit, BOOM, nothing. It keeps on coming, and before I get asked about range. I will say that on the by the range indicator, it should be penetrating any ways. Could this be a difficulty setting problem? I play on veteran. But anyways, I am going over them to compare them to real world data. Here is what I gather from the below.

Name: self-explanatory

AiAmmoType: self-explanatory

TraceMesh: tracer graphic

TraceColor: tracer color

Kalibr: size of gun. 0.037m, 3.7cm, 37mm

Massa: ?????

SolidPower: ?????

SolidPowerRadius: ?????

SplashPower: ????? Guessing something to do with its HE rating

SplashRadius: ????? Guessing its damage radius

PierceEffects: graphic on target

PierceSounds: sound on target

ExplosionEffects: annimation on target

ExplosionSounds: annimation sounds on target

[base]

Name 37mm_PzGr_39t_(AP)

[Properties]

AiAmmoType APHE

TraceMesh Effects\Tracers\020_075mm_Red\mono.sim

TraceColor ff ff ff 00

Kalibr 0.037

Massa 0.81

SolidPower 285

SolidPowerRadius 1

SplashPower 59

SplashRadius 0.2

PierceEffects PierceEffects_020-039mm

PierceSounds PierceEffects_020-039mm

ExplosionEffects PierceEffects_020-039mm

ExplosionSounds PierceEffects_020-039mm

Where are the weight of round, velocity, etc, etc? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

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I have played with these numbers extensively and can probably save you some time.

When it comes to ARMOR penetration, the range/penetration tables are what is driving the whole model. You need to look there, because other than HE effects, that's what determines the results in your example....

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">[Ger\37mm_PzGr_39t_(AP)]

Ammo Ger\37mm_PzGr_39t_(AP)

Speed 675

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 6200

Dispersion 1000 0.50

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Lines 0 100 183 238 293 347 400 452 1092

Penetration 41 39 33 28 25 20 16 12 0 </pre>

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SlapHappy,

Thanks for the response. Now some questions.

Speed: muzzle velocity

aimMinDist: self-explanatory

aimMaxDist: self-explanatory

HistMaxDist: self-explanatory

Dispersion: ????? what do those values mean?

LinesH: ????? Range?

Lines: ????? Range again with different values?

Penetration: self-explanatory.

Now, I am assuming this information is what is plugged onto the GUI in game that shows you the penetration values and what range the target is at for comparison? If so, that is where my problem lies. I take aim on my target look at its armor values, compare to my penetration table to see if it will penetrate, if yes, fire at will, if no, save the ammo or wait till it gets close enough to penetrate, etc, etc.. Now when its yes, and it does not penetrate like it should, then what? I don't want to change any of these values, unless they also are incorrect. I want to correct the problem of it not actually doing what it says its supposed to do, because right now its not.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Speed: muzzle velocity - Correct.

Dispersion: ????? what do those values mean? - Ah, now this is important...but not for penetration. This is an accuracy measure based on the round and the assumed gun it is fired from. Imagine a straight line from the gun barrel to the target. Dispersion is the characteristic of the round to deviate (randomly I assume) from that point of aim. The deviation is based on a 1000 meter range. So a HIGHER number means less accuracy, while a LOWER number means better accuracy. Compare some of the values and you will see what I mean. This is augmented also by gunner skill.

LinesH: ????? Range? - I believe that stands for Lines Historical ( a guess) I think these are the numbers that BFC substituted when they made the switch to historically accurate ballistics properties for weapons. The game was not originally designed that way......

Lines: ????? Range again with different values? - I think these are the original ranges for weapons based on original 1C coding. Perhaps they kept them as a reference?

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Oragus...Set yourself up a firing range using the editor.

Pick out the weapons and vehicles you are having questions about and do some tests.....

How many rounds penetrate from repeated firings at variable ranges? Record the percentages.....

Do the results line up with your expectations?

If not, dig a little deeper into the game data.

Do you have a specific example(s) of what discrepancy in penetration of armor you are referring to?

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Secondly, penetration of armor DOES NOT necessarily mean an armored vehicle will be stopped.

Internal damage of engine, weapons store, and crewmen are all modelled in the game.

It may be that the lighter weapons are not doing the kind of ACTUAL damage to the vehicle despite achieving some penetrations to your satisfaction.

It's just hard to say without more information.

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Very good questions, I will try my best to answer them.

As far as the firing range goes. I haven't done that yet, but with as many times that I have been playing and seeing the consistant failures in penetration has brought me to where I am today.

My example. All the 1941 German vs. USSR battles. The Pz. 35(t) against the BT-7 series and T-60s. The BT-7 series only has at the highest value of 22mm of armor. The T-60 has at the highest value of 35. Now according to the penetration to range meter the Pz.35(t) should more than handly penetrate the BT-7 series at ranges of 1500m. Now I have actually had the Pz.35(t) at ranges of under 100m blasting away at a BT-7A with a high experienced crew, registering hit after hit with no penetrations. (I am aware that a penetration could just kill crew members or damage equipment and it still keep coming, but that wasn't happening either?) Now I do realize the Pz.35(t) has a tougher time with the T-60, but its possible at around 200m. Now those examples are with the APHE, now you throw in the APCR rounds. It bumps out to about 400m. Heck if I could get close enough without getting shot to pieces. The Pz. 35(t) with the APCR could penetrate the T-34. I actually got next to one with its main gun damaged and started blasting at it, nothing, just pieces flying off of it. Now, my stuff gets hit forget about it. Every round that can penetrate does, and damages something or just flat out destroys it. That gets a bit frustrating..lol, to say the least. I have had similar problems with the Pz.38(t) as well which had a better gun than the 3.7cm gun on the Pz.IIIs. Lets just end with this. If I don't have something with the 7.5cm L24 gun, I have a heck of a time, because of the lack of penetration on stuff they should be penetrating. lol

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Well, let's keep the thread going.

You've got me curious now, as I haven't noticed these problems, but I've been playing CMSF and waiting for the TOW patch so maybe it's time for a revisit.

I'll try some tests with the units you mention and perhaps you can do the same. We'll see what we come up with......

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  • 2 weeks later...

SlapHappy,

Ok, not a direct test, but more force on force observations. The Pz. 38(t) has similar problems of penetration at range as the Pz. 35(t). Seems to be a trend of Czech built tanks. The Pz. IIIF and IVs don't seem to have problems. Even though the Czech guns are better than the Pz. IIIF's main gun?

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Don't forget about hit angle:)

In addition, if there are no visible holes on the target it does not mean it was not penetrated - there are 10 maximum drawn holes per unit, after that they will not be drawn. Also, holes appear during near penetrations too (80-90% of armor thickness).

Small early war rounds cause little damage after penetration. If you shoot into one point of the tank and achieve penetration after penetration, you can't kill creman who is already dead or disable the engine already broken:)

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Oragus, when I tested the PZ-35(t) against the BT-7a Soviet tank I did indeed find that the ammo tended not to penetrate the 22 mm hull armor even though the gun was rated to at the 100 m range I was testing at. I did notice, however, (as Sneaksie) points out) that all the rounds seemed to be ricocheting heavily against the sloped armor surface. APHE rounds were prone to do that, that is why the ballistic cap rounds were introduced in the first place.

I believe based on what I have seen that is what is happening here. I tested on the tank's side and had no problem penetrating the lighter (and less sloped) side armor. It's not that the round does not have the ENERGY to penetrate the frontal armor, it's just that alot of the potential energy is being redirected away from the focal or striking point of the armor face. It is even less helpful that the round is so small (37 mm) and lacks the additional mass to help prevent that from happening. Hope this makes sense.

The upshot of all of this is that you can't take the penetration table values completely at face value because there are other factors at work.....

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If you want my advice on how to deal with these early war tanks, it would be to use the aim high indicator on the attack button and try to knock out the guns rendering them harmless...to your tanks anyway.

Once you've "pulled the dog's teeth" you can go about your business and come back to deal with the cripples later.....don't expend time and ammo on a neutered threat.

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SlapHappy,

Very true indeed, and that is what I do. I usually try to get it tracked first, to get it to spin and expose weaker side armor. Then go for the turret. But even the near verticle armor on the turret it doesn't penetrate effectively as it should. All I know, is that the Czech built tanks for years were the backbone to the German war effort and were very effective when deployed properly. As of right now, with the games I have played numerous times, does not reflect that. The Czech built tanks had no problems with taking out enemy armor except for the French tanks, and the Russian T-34 and bigger stuff.

Sneaksie,

I understand. If it did penetrate and kill crewmen. I wouldn't have this problem. I do realize that you can penetrate a tank and not "destroy it". Killing the crew results in the same thing, no crew, no fighting back. I was not counting how many holes I put into it. I was going off of its combat abilities. Still in the fight, not in the fight. I hit them and hit them and hit them, with no bouncing off, and they keep coming with no damage. Or at least the damage indicator on the right hand side of the screen doesn't show any. Plus its still moving, still firing back. I also understand that the angle of the armor increases the horizonal armor thickness. But again like I said to SlapHappy, even on the near verticle surfaces no penetrations.

[ January 09, 2008, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: oragus ]

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The sloped armour have an equivalent thickness, this come from this formula:

Equivalent width= widht/cos(angle)

Here an example:

Panther harmour width= 80mm at 55°

Equivalent widht= 80/cos(55)=139mm

T34 equivalent width= 90mm

BT7 equivalent width= 30mm

other then the effect that the sloped armour could have on the shell

There are other things like the kind of armour (cast, RHA or RHA+FH) and the hardness of the armour but I dont think all that things are inplemented in the game

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