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Accurate gun data?

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Well I have falaise pocket mission saved and the Shermans are making swiss cheese out of my panther and tiger...all the time...within 10 - 15 seconds max. All the Tiger and Panther shots are bouncing of the shermans (yeah right) and ALL (so far that I have seen replaying this part 10 times) the shots fired from shermans always hit and somehow damage the Tiger and Panther - so what's with Panther's sloped armour ? As I'm a software developer for 14+ years I have to say that to have realistic gun penetration data in the game is one thing...but having seen in game test results is something else. On top of that it's also about how you use & manage the data in the game formula/business rules - the data by itself is one part of the product. So it could be the formulas or perhaps the armour values for the tanks. I will happily provide the saved game file.

[ April 30, 2007, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: JG53_Jaguar ]

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Originally posted by JG53_Jaguar:

Well I have falaise pocket mission saved and the Shermans are making swiss cheese out of my panther and tiger...all the time...within 10 - 15 seconds max. All the Tiger and Panther shots are bouncing of the shermans (yeah right) and ALL (so far that I have seen replaying this part 10 times) the shots fired from shermans always hit and somehow damage the Tiger and Panther - so what's with Panther's sloped armour ? As I'm a software developer for 14+ years I have to say that to have realistic gun penetration data in the game is one thing...but having seen in game test results is something else. On top of that it's also about how you use & manage the data in the game formula/business rules - the data by itself is one part of the product. So it could be the formulas or perhaps the armour values for the tanks. I will happily provide the saved game file.

Jag, how are you able to play the Falaise mission as a German? Are you coming to it via the campaign?

I've played it as an American, but my heart wasn't really in it, so I group-ordered the lot of them to make a frontal assault in the direction of the first spotted PAKs. Ditto for the reinforcements.

All my armoured vehicles got knocked out before they'd gotten more than halfway, then three MkIVs and a Panther came in and massacred all the troops. Even at 6fps it was quite a glorious sight. The visual detail on the German tanks is outstandingly good, on a par with that of well made scale models.

So, the mission ran as I expected it should. The Ronsons got torched and the troops had no chance after that. I did a few 1st-person views in the Shermans before they died, and they were firing at PAKs way over in the distance that they couldn't possibly see (solid tree canopies and bushes all the way).

I suppose if you forget any ideas of realism, and regard the game as nothing more than an interactive hollywood movie, it's somewhat entertaining. If the frame-rates were adequate I'd call it highly entertaining.

But as a game? I crave realism, which is why I was so keen on CM for so long, despite it's rather crude graphics. CM was, and shall remain, a grog masterpiece. Hopefully BFC will remember, and re-focus, their vision and steer clear in future of games that don't meet that standard

I'll revisit ToW along the way and see how the patch/es treat it, but for now it's off my serious gaming menu (I'll leave it installed). If it doesn't come good I'll chalk it down to experience. Not like I haven't had plenty of those in my gaming life.

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Originally posted by JG53_Jaguar:

Well I have falaise pocket mission saved and the Shermans are making swiss cheese out of my panther and tiger...all the time...within 10 - 15 seconds max. All the Tiger and Panther shots are bouncing of the shermans (yeah right) and ALL (so far that I have seen replaying this part 10 times) the shots fired from shermans always hit and somehow damage the Tiger and Panther - so what's with Panther's sloped armour ? As I'm a software developer for 14+ years I have to say that to have realistic gun penetration data in the game is one thing...but having seen in game test results is something else. On top of that it's also about how you use & manage the data in the game formula/business rules - the data by itself is one part of the product. So it could be the formulas or perhaps the armour values for the tanks. I will happily provide the saved game file.

Is this the "Escaping the pocket" mission you are writing about? Is just that i cant remember that there were any tigers in it, and just 1 panther if i remember correctly, the rest was pz3j crapboxes and the like......

Or maybe it is "the mongoose" mission?

[ April 30, 2007, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: chanss ]

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Originally posted by BillyBob:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JG53_Jaguar:

Well I have falaise pocket mission saved and the Shermans are making swiss cheese out of my panther and tiger...all the time...within 10 - 15 seconds max. All the Tiger and Panther shots are bouncing of the shermans (yeah right) and ALL (so far that I have seen replaying this part 10 times) the shots fired from shermans always hit and somehow damage the Tiger and Panther - so what's with Panther's sloped armour ? As I'm a software developer for 14+ years I have to say that to have realistic gun penetration data in the game is one thing...but having seen in game test results is something else. On top of that it's also about how you use & manage the data in the game formula/business rules - the data by itself is one part of the product. So it could be the formulas or perhaps the armour values for the tanks. I will happily provide the saved game file.

Jag, how are you able to play the Falaise mission as a German? Are you coming to it via the campaign?

I've played it as an American, but my heart wasn't really in it, so I group-ordered the lot of them to make a frontal assault in the direction of the first spotted PAKs. Ditto for the reinforcements.

All my armoured vehicles got knocked out before they'd gotten more than halfway, then three MkIVs and a Panther came in and massacred all the troops. Even at 6fps it was quite a glorious sight. The visual detail on the German tanks is outstandingly good, on a par with that of well made scale models.

So, the mission ran as I expected it should. The Ronsons got torched and the troops had no chance after that. I did a few 1st-person views in the Shermans before they died, and they were firing at PAKs way over in the distance that they couldn't possibly see (solid tree canopies and bushes all the way).

I suppose if you forget any ideas of realism, and regard the game as nothing more than an interactive hollywood movie, it's somewhat entertaining. If the frame-rates were adequate I'd call it highly entertaining.

But as a game? I crave realism, which is why I was so keen on CM for so long, despite it's rather crude graphics. CM was, and shall remain, a grog masterpiece. Hopefully BFC will remember, and re-focus, their vision and steer clear in future of games that don't meet that standard

I'll revisit ToW along the way and see how the patch/es treat it, but for now it's off my serious gaming menu (I'll leave it installed). If it doesn't come good I'll chalk it down to experience. Not like I haven't had plenty of those in my gaming life. </font>

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Originally posted by chanss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JG53_Jaguar:

Well I have falaise pocket mission saved and the Shermans are making swiss cheese out of my panther and tiger...all the time...within 10 - 15 seconds max. All the Tiger and Panther shots are bouncing of the shermans (yeah right) and ALL (so far that I have seen replaying this part 10 times) the shots fired from shermans always hit and somehow damage the Tiger and Panther - so what's with Panther's sloped armour ? As I'm a software developer for 14+ years I have to say that to have realistic gun penetration data in the game is one thing...but having seen in game test results is something else. On top of that it's also about how you use & manage the data in the game formula/business rules - the data by itself is one part of the product. So it could be the formulas or perhaps the armour values for the tanks. I will happily provide the saved game file.

Is this the "Escaping the pocket" mission you are writing about? Is just that i cant remember that there were any tigers in it, and just 1 panther if i remember correctly, the rest was pz3j crapboxes and the like......

Or maybe it is "the mongoose" mission? </font>

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Just replayed that kursk scenario on Hardest, and it was a slaughter on the Russians, I killed some 35 tanks and lost 3 pz myself, and that was pz4:s, my tigers got tracked and 1 tiger got degunned. German tanks at least dont have any problems killing stuff, and the tigers can take a horrendous beating if handled right. The above stuff in this thread must be a bug of some kind.

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Jaguar,

I have played the saved game 4 times, and will play some more yet. I also have one of the beta testers testing it.

There is nothing out of the ordinary int he scenario. Each time i destroyed 1-2 Shermans before havinbg the Tiger destroyed. Why would the tiger be killed?

Tiger Armor:

Armor Data for the Tiger I.

Front Side Rear

Gun Mantlet 120 mm @ 0° Turret 80 mm @ 0° Turret 80 mm @ 0°

Turret 100 mm @ 10° Superstructure 80 mm @ 0° Hull 80 mm @ 0°

Superstructure 100 mm @ 9° Hull 60 mm @ 0°

Hull 100 mm @ 25°

Source: JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; ISBN 0-7643-0225-6

You have 5 Shermans with the advanced 76mm gun, and an M10 fighting a lone Tiger. They are also coming in from the side before the Tiger rotates. Range of the battle is 800 meters. Lets look at the Sherman's gun.

76mm_M1A1 76mm_M93_(APDS) APDS 246.8 239 208 175 147 124 104 88 Exact match to Bird & Livingston

So at 1000 meters the penetration value is 175mm. Lets look at regular AP ammo.

76mm_M1A1 76mm_M62_(AP) APC 127.3 125 116 106 97 89 81 74 Exact match to Bird & Livingston

So 106mm at 1000 meters. So for both types of ammo, any hit other then the mantlet will penetrate the Tiger's armor.

Also according to Jentz, the M1A1 76mm could penetrate the Tiger's:

Front turret 700 meters

Side turret 1800 meters

Hull 3200 meters

rear turret 1800 meters

Each time i played, the Tiger was penetrated in the side. I had one 88mm bounce off the Sherman's manlet, the rest destroyed the Shermans. jentz had this to say about the 88 and the Sherman.

mantlet 200 meters

Source : JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; ISBN 0-7643-0225-6

I will continue to test to see if any shots bounce off the Sherman.

Rune

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Seems to be there is a common misconception taht the 76mm American cannon was a wimp. It can make mince meat of German tanks.

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Even added another tester to look things over. I still have NOT seen any bizarre behavior. 6 tanks shooting at the side of a Tiger, or an immobilized Panhter. I still manage to kill 1-3 tanks before losing them. Have NOT see anything but the one bounce, and have seen both the 75mm and 88m go through the Shermans, and the poor M10.

Rune

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Ok....Just played the saved game file 4 times. I am assuming you are talking about the immobile Panther and the Tiger at the treeline/road. First time both killed very quickly with maybe getting one shot off each that missed (didn't see because I didn't know where the Shermans were coming in). Next 2 times I gave a rotate order to the Tiger so he might not have his side exposed when the Shermans arrived. Same result as the first time but these times I was able to see the shots miss. 4th time I gave a move order to the Tiger to advance. This must have exposed the Tiger tomore Shermans than when it was in the treeline because they didn't seem to fire on the Panther as much. Tigers main gun was knocked out quickly and the Panther killed 4 out of 6 Shermans before going down itself. I have a screen shot of the dead Shermans.

I am going back to try it a few more times.

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6 more plays and similar results. Sometimes get wiped out right away and sometimes I take 3 or 4 with me before I go. I was only testing for bounced shots and getting killed not trying to win the battle. Those tanks are in very unfortunates positions. The Tiger giving away its side and the Panther immoible and crew not in 100% good condition. If I were going to try to finish the battle I would get the Tiger running away from the incoming Sherman 76s and try to get it in a more favorable position and hope the Panther can take out a few before dying.

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so I take it the whining about german armor not performing as expected is due to the influx of players that arent exactly "in the know" about ww2 ballistics, not even rudimentary things like 75mm and 76mm shermans?

it was to be expected with tow attracting the rts crowd.

another matter would be how many 76mm shermans the allies fielded that early, and hence the ratio of 76mm shermans in that scenario in question. they were still outnumbered by the 75mm shermans as per US doctrine.

btw, moon, to my understanding the 76mm HVAP ammo was officially issued only to TD units, not tanks.

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OK, I have played the saved game over 40 times now, and still have not seen anything but the one shot bounce off. The 88mm and the 75mm make holes in the Shermans easily.

I head from both Elvis and Elmar, and they are seeing the same thing, ie. no problem other then the odds against the poor Tiger.

I'll post one more thing in here, about the different types of ammo before I go off to working on CMSF.

Rune

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OK, as promised, the definition of different types of shells. Nothing new for the old grog, other then maybe a refreasher, but help to the newer player.

Anti-tank ammunition natures

It is a common Gunner saying that the weapon of the artillery is not the gun, but the shell. Armour penetration performance cannot be attributed simply to a type of gun, but rather to the combination of gun and ammunition. In British usage, this may be “shot” rather than “shell”. “Shot” is the term used to refer to solid projectiles, and “shell” to those containing a bursting charge of explosive. Improvements in ammunition can produce spectacular changes in the penetrative performance of a gun, and unfortunately many sources quote a penetration figure for a gun without identifying the ammunition nature used.

The basic ammunition natures used during WW2 were as follows:

AP (Armour Piercing)

AP is plain steel shot, the simplest form of anti-tank projectile. This nature was favoured by the British in the early part of the war.

APHE (Armour Piercing High Explosive)

APHE was preferred by other nations. It contained a small bursting charge intended to increase the damage caused after penetration, at the expense of an increased chance of the projectile shattering on striking armour. Note that projectile shatter does not necessarily mean a “plate win”; DEFE 15/1107 records “shattered penetrations”, where armour is pierced by large splinters of the projectile.

APC (Armour Piercing Capped)

This is fitted with a piercing cap, to improve performance against face-hardened plate and at high angles of impact by “seating” the nose of the shot firmly at the beginning of penetration, and spreading stresses on the projectile nose to the shoulders so as to prevent the projectile from shattering.

APCBC (Armour Piercing Capped Ballistic Capped)

In addition to the piercing cap, this has a ballistic cap or windshield fitted to reduce air resistance by making the projectile a more streamlined shape. This has no effect on the mechanics of penetration, but permits the projectile to retain greater velocity (and hence penetrating power) down range.

APCR (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid)

There is a limit to the velocity at which steel projectiles can be flung against armour plate without shattering. At higher velocities, harder materials are needed, such as tungsten carbide. Unfortunately, this is so dense that a full-calibre projectile would require a prohibitively large charge to achieve any worthwhile velocity. The answer is to use a hard penetrating tungsten carbide core, typically half the calibre of the projectile, surrounded by a lightweight steel body. The composite projectile, being lighter than a standard one, can be fired at higher velocity, although, being lighter, it loses velocity more quickly. There is, therefore, typically a cross-over range beyond which APCR performs less well than standard ammunition.

APCNR (Armour Piercing Composite Non-Rigid)

Another approach to designing ammunition with a hard tungsten carbide core is that used in “squeeze-bore” guns. Just as in APCR, there is a hard penetrating core surrounded by a lightweight steel body. However, with APCNR the relatively soft body is swaged down to a smaller emergent calibre by the decreasing diameter of the tapered bore. A total of seven “squeeze-bore” weapons were designed during WW2, of which five saw service. In Germany, Dr Gerlich designed the 2.8/2cm SPzB 41, 4.2/3cm lePaK 41 (PJK 41) and 7.5/5.5cm PaK 41, and Dr Grotsch’s 7.5/5.5cm PaK 44 did not see service. The Polish Dr Janaček, working in the UK, developed a “squeeze-bore” adapter that could be fitted to the 2-pounder and US 37mm anti-tank guns. This was known as the “Littlejohn” adapter, an Anglicization of his name. A Littlejohn adapter for the 6-pounder was designed, but never fielded.

APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot)

Ultimately the best way of incorporating a hard core was found to be to sheath it in a lightweight surround, or “sabot” (French for “clog”), which fell off when the projectile left the barrel. This created a hazard for accompanying personnel near the line of fire, who might be struck by sabot petals after discarding. APDS does not require a special tapered barrel like APCNR, and does not lose velocity with range as fast as APCR, so the advantages of the approach made it the one that was eventually adopted universally, but during WW2 it was used only by the British and Germans. British APDS designs, due to Coppock and Permutter, used a half-calibre tungsten carbide penetrator, and at least in their early incarnations suffered from accuracy problems due to poor shot seating, but provided fearsome penetrative performance. The Germans used a kind of APDS in some field artillery equipments, but the penetrator was nothing special, being merely the armour-piercing shell of the next-smallest calibre gun provided with sabots.

Post-war developments have led to APFSDS, Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot, typically fired from smoothbore guns, but no projectiles of this kind were fielded during WW2.

HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank)

This is a shaped charge creating a penetrating jet. The other ammunition natures described so far rely on the kinetic energy of the projectile, and hence in part on their striking velocity, to punch through armour. The penetrator of a HEAT warhead, on the other hand, is formed by the detonation of the warhead, so that its penetrating power does not depend on its striking velocity. HEAT warheads exploit the Monroe effect, also known as the von Neumann effect, which was originally observed when the inscribed lettering on blocks of explosive detonated against steel plate produced mirror-writing inscriptions on the plate. A hollow cone in the warhead is lined with copper or similar material, and when the warhead is detonated the liner is very rapidly crushed to form a long, thin penetrator moving at very high velocity. This penetrator is not fully formed until some distance is reached, and as the penetrator tends to stretch as is it produced it dissipates at some greater distance. Achieving the right stand-off distance is therefore criticial to the performance of HEAT warheads, and it is this that spaced armour such as Schürzen can frustrate. Post-war developments have led to shaped charges capable of producing penetrators that do not elongate in flight, but these are generally referred to not as HEAT but as EFP (explosively-formed penetrator) or SFF (self-forging fragment) warheads, and none saw service in WW2. While HEAT offers excellent penetrating power in quite small, low-velocity warheads, the penetrator is very narrow, typically about the width of a pencil, and so tends to produce relatively little behind-armour débris (BAD).

HESH (High Explosive Squash Head)

While no HESH ammunition saw service during WW2, it was developed at Fort Halstead by Dr Burney, originally under the name “Wallbuster”, as it was intended for the demolition of concrete fortifications. Like HEAT, HESH does not depend on the striking velocity of the projectile for its effect. It works using the Hopkinson effect, whereby the detonation of a blob of plastic explosive on one surface of an armour plate sets up shock waves in the plate that knock fragments (known as “spall”) off the other surface. It is therefore not necessary for HESH to penetrate armour in order to cause severe damage inside a target vehicle; typically the only external mark of an attack against thick plate is shallow dishing. It is therefore the diametric opposite of HEAT in that it produces little or no penetration but large amounts of behind-armour débris.

These designators correspond closely with late-war British and American ammunition designations, although the Americans usually referred to APCR as HVAP (High Velocity Armour Piercing). In Russian service, APCR was designated podkaliberniy (подкалиберный) and HEAT as kumulativniy (кумулативный), and neither APCNR nor APDS were used. In German service, the standard armour-piercing projectile in calibres of 5cm and above was the Panzergranate 39, an armour-piercing shell with both piercing and ballistic caps. This should properly be designated APCBCHE, and often is in contemporary British documents, but is now often referred to simply as APCBC. Panzergranate 40 is the German designation for APCR, Panzergranate 41 for APCNR, and Hohlladung (meaning “hollow charge” and abbreviated Hl) for HEAT. In Italian service, HEAT was known as Effeto Pronto.

Again, thanks to John D. Salt.

Rune

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Penetration as a measure of vehicle-killing effect

Using penetration tables takes account neither of behind-armour effect following penetration, nor of non-penetrating damage. In principle, penetrating shell with a bursting charge should have better behind-armour effect than solid shot, but whether this matters in calibres above about 50mm seems highly questionable. The British Army abandoned the APHE round designed for the 2-pounder when it was shown in firing trials to offer no advantages over plain AP shot. The Red Army, in the light of combat experience, modified the BR-240 APHE round of their 45mm anti-tank gun by replacing the bursting charge with solid metal, the result being designated BR-240SP (for sploshniy, сплошный, meaning “solid”). The most supremely futile attempt to improve behind-armour effectiveness must surely be the German inclusion of a small tear-gas pellet in the AP bullet for the PzB 39 anti-tank rifle (arguably not a violation of the 1925 Geneva Gas Protocol because the weapon did not rely on gas for its primary effect). It should still be borne in mind that most of these figures indicate the thickness of armour the projectile will just penetrate. The greater the degree to which the armour is overmatched, presumably, the greater will be the damage potential of the penetrating projectile. Hollow-charge weapons are a special case, in that the projectile itself does not penetrate the armour, but rather the jet formed by its charge does. Hollow charge weapons of the WW2 epoch were reputed to have less-than-ideal behind-armour effects. As the Bovington “Fire and Movement” booklet points out, “If the projectile is not an appreciable overmatch for the target, however, the penetration can be small enough to do little damage”.

As a general rule, it can be taken that warhead designs designed to achieve maximum penetration sacrifice a measure of behind-armour effect because of their narrower penetrators, being for example half the full calibre in the case of APDS shot, and in the extreme case of HEAT warheads the explosively-formed penetrator is very narrow indeed, meaning less material is projected into the penetrated AFV. Pemberton says, of APDS: “...where APCBC could penetrate, it did greater damage inside the tank and was less likely to pass straight through a lightly armoured target. In consequence both kinds of shot had to be retained in the service.” On the other hand, APHE rounds, by weakening the projectile, may sacrifice penetrative power for behind-armour effect. Whether the behind-armour débris resulting from a penetration inflicts lethal damage depends on who or what it strikes, and, obviously, the less densely the crew and ammunition are packed into the internal volume of the vehicle, the less likely they are to be struck. In the later part of the war, American tank design began to protect ammunition by the use of “wet stowage”, and British by the use of armoured ammunition bins and minimising the number of rounds carried above the turret-ring

[ May 01, 2007, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

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ok, I still don't get the over 1000 data.. seems anectdotal that the german 88's, of all verieties performed well over 1500meters. Putting tigers in a knife fight against shermans is one thing, but better optics alone would acount for the many observed, in real life, kills of over 1500 meters..

"tip your hat to the tiger"

That graphic too would be a nice add on as the 34 had a habit of lossing their turrets to penetrating tiger shots that presumably ignited the internal rounds.

thanks for the info, \

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