Non-bug Feedback Request

[RIPper_SVK]

problem with Thor's driver (or any other crew member) is that his compartment is very small. even if i forget the big ammount of armor around him, it's almost impossible to hit him directly because he's just too small....and frag damage from 120mm HEAT or AP isn't very good.

[Drusus]

With HEAT you have nearly 100% chance of killing when you get direct hit. With AP, no. Apart from kinetic burn, I claim that one AP hit will never take out the driver, even when shooting at Shrike. Now I have a extensive sample of 10 shots, and not single time did the driver die with the first shot. These are verified direct hits from the logs. I have done a lot of shooting against the fuel cells, and never, ever did I get a first shot kill with AP because of "killing" the fuel cells. The fuel cells and the driver have the same amount of hit points, and I think damage to both are handled similarly. The effect of destroying is different, though.

[RiflemanIII]

Originally posted by konstantine:

One idea (that may have been mentioned) is to allow indirect fire weapons to scatter mines or bomblets.

Wouldn't be too far off. We actually do have both kinds of artillery munitions IRL, if I correctly remember.

[yurch]

Since the directkill of AP is 50, and the component has the same number of 'hitpoints', there must be something that reduces the ap killfactor on the way to (or in) the target to have that many non-kills.

[Drusus]

I tested a bit and it seems that 2 "directkills" is about one HP, with some random(?) variation. Atleast the amount of armor penetrated doesn't seem to affect this. Incidentally Thors on my setup have now 180hp engine and 10 points of side armor...

[yurch]

What about looong distance, then? There's a "lossrate" defined for AP that HEAT doesn't seem to have. Perhaps it's related to this?

[Drusus]

Well, my tests are at close range, so propably the gun won't be more effective at long range anyways. Quick test, and it seems it doesn't have any dramatic effect, at least.

I believe the lossrate is about AP penetration, not its effect when it has penetrated. As always, just my guess.

[poesel]

So now that I can play I throw in some random bits:

- the bot that is driving the cutter is very poor: he goes straight a bit, stops, turns, runs a bit and so on (it had orders to capture a turret)

- all towers that one has put on the map get counted as 'deaths' towards the player who placed them if they are destroyed. That makes the death number a bit meaningless

- ice map: reading yellow or white on white is quite hard Some more contrast in the status texts would be nice

- ice: the ice feels like a polished, oily metal surface. If you ever get on the dark blue ice you are totally lost. Only luck will bring you back on shore.

Ice and snow has friction and more than in this game. Especially the tracked vehicles should do much better.

- a speedometer would be nice. Sometimes you don't know how fast you are

- the acceleration feels wrong: you should accelerate fast and decrease from there - it feels linear though (like an electromotor)

- breaking balance of the Paladins: it looks like you can get the vehicle to flip over the front wheels only by braking hard. Either the center of mass is too high or the balance between rear and front brakes is wrong. Such a car wouldn't sell well...

A really fun game especially if you get enough humans together and coordinated.

[Marathon]

I figured if you guys were kind enough to put a beta out I should go through the efforts of making a few comments on it. =)

Firstly, thanks for a very fun, and different, game from what is out there. I especially appreciate the take on a game with an RTS commander and FPS/TPS subordinates.

To second what others have said, I think we need gears; this would allow much better control of our speed (i don't think stroking the 'w' key works well at all, ESP. with slow accelerations). I also feel that the tanks need better acceleration (but same slow, top speed) to reward hiding behind obstacles after each shot (and above, to keep from driving me crazy when I'm trying to stroke the 'w' key).

Also, esp. as we're testing stuff out, would it be possible to have a "sandbox/shooting range" map/option? Prompt the user for atmospheric conditions, etc. at the beginning. Have at various ranges differing units (or even moving to a script). It would be very interesting to allow users to emperically test the ability to penetrate and kill targets at very angles and ranges.

Would it be possible for the bots to take more of a hand in turrent placement and working together? I realize there's a singleplayer, but does that mean they'll be mostly scripted events? And can formation movements be more of a "guideline" than a hard rule that could lead to crashes? I'm not entirely sold that the command interface and functions are as streamlined and as easy to use as they could be. I think many people new to battlefront may try and compare the command interface with their favorite RTS and come up dissapointed. Not saying it should be watered down, just that something doesn't quite feel right.

Anyways, sorry for the essay , keep up the good work!

[aittam]

quote the shooting range map

[Drusus]

How to get a shooting range: Fire up your own server. It isn't that hard, check out the manual. Put 8 bots to the other team, 0 to the other (-numbots0 8 -numbots1 0). Start the game & join your own server. Name it something like "Test Server Only", so that others wont wander in for normal game play. Join the same team the bots are in. You can issue the bots different drop orders to get different targets. Shoot the bots. You can check what happens to them live through the tactical map. And after you shut down the server, the DropTeam.log should have plenty of detailed information.

About the brake balance: It seems that the brakes are well balanced if you use the 'x' key. But if you press the reverse key, then you have a chance of a roll over. Maybe the reverse key should work a bit more like the brake key?

[aittam]

thanks for the range tip

brakes: well if you hit the reverse on a bumpy terrain it's easy to imagine that the wheels that are'nt touching will get a different if not opposite speed compared to the vehicle -> more instability produced -> a couple o cycles, very fas-> roll over

[inktomi19d]

Originally posted by DragoonXXIV:

The 120 AP and HEAT are handy but the HE is pretty useless (good for buildings i guess). I was wondering if there will be other maybe more exotic types of ammunition like plasma rounds or incendinary rounds and if it will be possible to choose your ammunition lay-out before you deploy.

I'd find HE a lot more useful if it were more accurate. It's barely accurate enough to hit buildings, and it's useless against turrets or vehicles unless you're at very close range. HE is very effective against fast-moving wheeled vehicles -- any hit or near miss will likely destroy tires, making it good to use against targets which are moving too erratically to line up a killing shot. Against a lightly armored target like a shrike, a center-mass hit with 120 HE will kill it from any angle. The only downside is that HE scatters so much that whether you hit or not is pretty random.

[Imperial Grunt]

OK, this has nothing to do with the game, but...

I want some robot-infantry like this! (In addition to space Marines of course).

Tetra Vaal

And I am not sure if the game wants to go there, but the giving the background and circumstances of the various planets being fought over, should'nt the battlefields be "darker"? I am not talking necessary about fields of skulls being crushed under the treads of tanks (ala Terminator), but the current maps are pretty much fights on a golf course (one being frozen)

Just an idea to throw out.

[poesel]

It would be nice if - after switching the scenario - you could not only see whos on your team but also who has also finished loading the level.

Ypu never know who can read you. You have to wait until everyone said 'hi' or something.

It takes quite awhile until you get a reaction after the level has loaded and you have to press return. This will confuse people.

Btw: why do we have to pree return anyway? I don't see a sense in that.

Talking after the level has ended is a common and good feature in other games.

The attackers should be able to order theit drop during deploy so you can immediatly drop in like the bots do.

It takes some time to reload but it takes no time to switch the ammo type. Are all vehicles three-barreled or what?

[inktomi19d]

I kinda think default bot drops need to be changed a bit. They shouldn't completely deplete the stocks of any item when they're autonomous. They should maybe check and not drop an item for which there is >20% of the starting inventory. It's fine if they do it when they're directed too, but since not every vehicle is equal at every point in the game, players should have the opportunity to drop vehicles that the bots quickly exhaust throughout the match. I don't mind that the bots prefer 120mm Thors and Shrikes, but I hate that players need to rush to get those or else the bots will have used them all up. I don't feel that giving the bots specific drop orders is a good enough substitute, because then they'll just use up a different item, and then use up the 120mm Thors and the Shrikes.

Bots should require human input to drop something that's in short supply.

[aittam]

yesterday night the 76mm proved finally very usefull on ice map especially to wipe out the enemies closing in the fort, even MBT thanks to infrastructures protection

btw i noticed that when i was on the wall with a ion beam MBT and firing at distant enemies, they were firing back, hitting only the walls, but at a point the barrel started to emit smoke, no problem in firing, may be just a visual effect, steam? noticed it also on an enemy MBT, but it did'nt last long enough to investigate (see point 1)

[Drusus]

Feedback from a recent game. I was playing as the attacker on the Raid map. I managed the bots and captured easily the center tower of the raid map and everything looked promising. Until the Hurricane showed up. Ofcourse destroying the tower as the first thing (this seems to be easy with Hurricane). And taking the 6 bots guarding the center, much by itself. Yes, I had a Hermes there, it doesn't help.

There is just something way broken at the moment in regard to that vehicle. It is easy to use, right click & fire giving almoust guaranteed kill except against Thor. But the truth is, Hurricane is better than Thor, it is simply the king of the field. Ok, it might be that a great human player can fight back when using the Thor. But if most of the vehicles happen to be bots, the game is ruined. By that single vehicle. What am I supposed to do against it?

Ok, it might be that it is just good on some maps. But from what I have seen, it is _too_ good on these maps. Actually it might be one of the biggest reasons there is so little teamplay. Nice to do a coordinated attack, which _will_ be ruined if my enemy decides to use that vehicle. Hermes, Cutter and Mercury are all one shot kills. I myself don't use it. It is not even fun. Really, a _single_ Hurricane is able to break up a coordinated attack. There is 6 (or 7?) of them in the inventory. Plenty for a player who doesn't drive around, but uses some care. Not much is needed though... I have tried just driving around on the ice map and use the point and kill interface, with much succeess. I don't need to think what I am doing, just cruise around and kill stuff. Talk about deep tactical gameplay. Your worst enemy is flip over, not enemy vehicles. Oh, and you can ctrl-m fire at enemy dropships if you don't have any better targets at the moment.

I think the majority on this forum agrees with this. The vehicle is just out of balance. There is nice, propably even coordinated, fighting going on. You know, countering enemy moves and so on. Until somebody takes the Hurricane. Maybe there are maps on which it is useles. The truth is I don't care. It is way overpowered on the maps we have at the moment. A vehicle that is useles on some maps and unbalanced on some others isn't fun.

Sorry for the rant. But I just felt like some immediate feedback...

How would I change that vehicle? Well, the fragile and bigger engine would be a good start. But I don't believe it is enough. The mortar shell should be a little bit less powerful than it is at the moment. You know, so that you would have to actually hit to kill. And maybe a bit slower rate of fire, also.

Please fix or do somefink.

[Type98]

The Hurricane as an offensive vehicle against other players/bots is unbalanced (due to its armament, the mortar). IMHO, on the other hand it is the best vehicle to use on the ICE map to clear out defensive turret/jammer/sensor for creating additional DZ. The mortar support on tracks are very easily stuck on ICE and killed. The Thor mortar support is really screwed up with HE-H and HE-L selection and range (not sure why there is a HE-H and HE-L anyway as it doesn't make a lot of sense). Over half of the time when I try to use the Thor mortar I end up hitting no where close to the target due to the automated ammo selection. Otherwise there would be probably as many complaints about that vehicle as the Hurricane. The artillery is definite very powerful in the current game and that is probably more of a problem then the Hurricane vehicle itself.

[ April 14, 2006, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Type98 ]

[yurch]

I'm fairly certain three Hurricanes deployed in competant hands, even with very loose coordination, will just destroy most other teams, attacking or defending. A thor can orient itself to maximize survivability from one shell from one direction. It cannot do so against multiple launchers, or if the terrain around it isn't absolutely perfect, which terraforming makes sure of quickly. If a shell lands anywhere near the sides, or impacts behind the thor, the thor will most likely take damage. Even with an excellent position, the thor has poor top armor on it's turret, so airbursts or direct hits deviating from the front of the turret are dangerous. Dug defensive arrays usually just become holes with temporarily blinded vehicles; the next shell can hit the back of the crater and destroy whatever vehicle is inside of it. Large buildings just serve as airburst points. I've seen 3 vehicles die from a single hurricane shot to the large buildings in the middle of raid.

Besides taking hurricanes yourself (which isn't always an option, this is not a fair counter), Thor is the only chance. Tempests are just as rare as the hurricane but more vunerable; they also must be driven at extremely dangerous velocities to stay alive. ATGM launchers take an average of 3 hits and are not sturdy enough once discovered. Light vehicles driven close enough can cause the hurricane to damage itself, but this is happening less and less often. Hurricanes also tend to loiter around the support ship for ammo and point defense.

My best hurricane-kill-to-death ratio is probably with Viper-flinging. Cowardly shooting down extracting hurricane dropships with ATGM is a close second.

Dropping anywhere unjammed within 6k (possibly more) of an unoccupied hurricane with a clear shot will probably get you killed through ctrl-m. In many cases the shell will kill your dropship before it even deposits you.

The hurricane can also be deployed on places hovercraft can't normally go as a temporary and stationary turret for extremely wide area denial. You aren't safe anywhere.

Massed ions (another overpowered weapon if you ask me - try it with 3 coordinated human thors and be amazed) in general can be used as a counter, but at least 2 are needed to be firing(IE, not blind, dead, or in a hole) to kill fast enough to consistantly prevent hurricane escape by ground or dropship. Since the ion thor is slow and the other ion carriers are difficult to keep alive, this requires much more coordination than is needed on the hurricane end. It doesn't matter if the opposing team can do it or not, the hurricane has already won by forcing them to.

The hurricane's ability to tie up disproportunate amount of hostiles and consistantly come out on top - this is what makes it overpowered. It's weapon system is simply too powerful for whatever it's single expected counter is supposed to be. Improved damage to the hurricanes won't change much; damaged hurricanes just run away and thier weapon system outranges everything except ions, rockets and other artillery. In smaller, 'bumpier' maps it might be less effective, but players will still have to bear with getting vaporized whenever they come into view.

Hermes is not a defense against the weapon except at extreme range, ground level ion towers are too much a preferred target for the weapon to be considered defense against it.

One hit kill weapons are almost always the hardest to balance in 3d games.

If the hurricane were to dissapear today, I wouldn't miss it at all. It's a direct fire mortar, it should be using accuracy to compensate for it's inefficient aspects. A drop in the shell caliber is surely warrented. It makes little sense for the paladin to be running around with that dinky mortar fired in upright fasion, and a flying craft to have a varient of what's carried on the slowest platform in the game. If it was so easy to install and so obviously effective, why aren't all the craft carrying it? The ammo count is not a balancing factor. You could make a hurricane with only 1 shell capable of obliterating any single target from the front, and in our situations it would not be balanced or fair.

[yurch]

Type98, the best vehicle by far to clear out turrets on the icemap is the tempest IC. Wholesale turret murder.

Standard artillery can be countered by nearby hermes; but turrets don't shoot at jammed craft at all anyway, they are the least of worries.

[Bastables]

I agree the most important point is that any counters to the Hurricain means forming kill teams with other players and "expensive" weapons to deal with one unit. In this it is overpowered. In a game about team work it requires hardly any team work to be effective yet it's counters require planning and team work.

It's very survivable and it's weapon a direct fire large ore HE flinger is the most effective anti veh unit in the game.

And it's more the thing is the most high speed unit in the game it can point defence flank almost at will.

[ April 14, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Type98]

As for using the Tempest to clear out turrets, been there and done that. IMHO mortars are faster, as the ion beam doesn't always seem to do damage (bad aim on my part), recent turret deployment are showing up more as clusters (jammer+AA+sometimes Plasma), you can keep manuevering and support your team.

On the ICE map the Tempest can reach 250+kmph the Hurricane 150+kmph on a straight run.

[inktomi19d]

Originally posted by Type98:

The Hurricane as an offensive vehicle against other players/bots is unbalanced (due to its armament, the mortar). IMHO, on the other hand it is the best vehicle to use on the ICE map to clear out defensive turret/jammer/sensor for creating additional DZ. The mortar support on tracks are very easily stuck on ICE and killed. The Thor mortar support is really screwed up with HE-H and HE-L selection and range (not sure why there is a HE-H and HE-L anyway as it doesn't make a lot of sense). Over half of the time when I try to use the Thor mortar I end up hitting no where close to the target due to the automated ammo selection. Otherwise there would be probably as many complaints about that vehicle as the Hurricane. The artillery is definite very powerful in the current game and that is probably more of a problem then the Hurricane vehicle itself.

The Hurricane is overpowered because of it's combination of firepower, mobility, and armor. I kinda like the Thor mortar, but since it's rounds have a much higher trajectory their flight time makes them impractical for use against moving targets. Also the Thor only moves at 25 km/h, making it an extremely easy target at any range. You can deal with a Thor mortar by changing direcctions every time it fires, and manuevering to where the armor is weaker.

If a Hurricane is shooting on the move a 76 Paladin can't keep up with it, and certainly can't maneuver to fire on weaker armor. About the only things that kill Hurricanes reliably are ATGMs (while the target is moving slowly) or a well-placed 120 round (while the Hurricane is stopped). The problem is that since everything can be killed in one shot by the Hurricane, you need to be able to kill, disarm, or immobilize it in one shot, or it will kill you (even with a near miss) as soon as you reveal yourself. Because of the vehicle's speed and slope of the armor it's next to impossible to hit a critical system on it while it's moving.

I really don't mind when the Hurricane is used as artillery. The sort of gun it has is just fine when fired from a more or less fixed position, the way the other mortars are generally used. If the Hurricane had to deploy anchors before firing I think it would be fine -- it would then need a team to support it and could be maneuvered against.

I kind of like the power of the plasma mortar, I'd rather not see that go. But even if it never moves an inch from it's drop point or receives a bit of fire the Hurricane is already extremely useful.

Maybe the craft should be *much* more fragile. Make the lift equipment as easily damages as tires, or make it so most hull shots disable the vehicle. Make it so that players think twice before driving out where they'll be shot at. It bugs me that a craft that can fire over obstacles and at such great distance is so often used at point-blank range.

The only other solution I could see is to drastically limit the supply, to say one or two. It's pretty common to see 2 or 3 players using Hurricanes exclusively for 30 minutes, when other vehicles have been depleted. Since it takes such extreme effort to kill a Hurricane, killing one or two in a match should deprive your enemy of them.

I pretty much only deploy Hurricanes as an emplaced gun, they just seem way too easy when they can roam.

[inktomi19d]

Originally posted by Type98:

As for using the Tempest to clear out turrets, been there and done that. IMHO mortars are faster, as the ion beam doesn't always seem to do damage (bad aim on my part), recent turret deployment are showing up more as clusters (jammer+AA+sometimes Plasma), you can keep manuevering and support your team.

On the ICE map the Tempest can reach 250+kmph the Hurricane 150+kmph on a straight run.

Mortars are great against turrets if they aren't jammed. If they are jammed you're better off with a direct fire weapon, IMO.