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Kurtz

Suicide is painless?

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Just wondering about the "kill yourself" option.

It seems to be the only way out when you're out of ammo or stuck, if you don't want to spend the rest of the game doing nothing.

It also seems to be a way to cheat the opponent by killing yourself before the incoming round/missile hits. At least that's the impression I get from a couple of hours playing today. I guess I lose points for every vehicle I lose, but do I lose the same amount regardless of how the vehicle is killed? But if I kill myself, I guess the opponent won't get any points for killing me?

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Part of the reason for this multiplayer beta demo (besides technical questions) is to find out exactly stuff like this... what "cheats" do people find, where do we need put restrictions and where to leave more room for creative tactics. The beta tester team has found a lot in the past months, but nothing is equal to a test under "live fire" smile.gif

I believe that there are several penalties for killing yourself, not only in points, but also because your vehicle won't be returned to the inventory pool if you do. The better option in most cases is probably to request an extraction by DropShip.

Martin

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I also noticed a lot of suicides just as the ATGM is streaking in for the kill. The player about to score certainly looses a 'kill'. How the team scores are affected I don't know.

Could you extend the 'arms' of the dropships a bit? Sometimes when you're stuck in a trench or something the dropship can't get you out. Same with trees I think.

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I'll try the extract option. I guess I should take a closer look at all available commands.... redface.gif

The inventory aspect isn't obvious, that could be the reason people kill themselves rather than risking getting killed. I guess that'll change when real campaigns are played.

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Other options could be whoever got the last ding on the guy before suicide gets the kill or whoever's closest etc.

Los

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The "I'm getting pounded so I'm going to suicide and take away their kill points" is getting REALLY annoying. It's incredibly chickensh-t to take fire and kill yourself just before you get blown away.

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I definitely see this issue from both sides. Today, I was on the attacking end while someone killed themself...I wasn't happy at all. On the other hand, sometimes, you have to kill yourself to get back in the battle. When your stuck and under enemy AA, there is no way to get extracted. If no enemy unit is around to finish you off, your there forever (usually upside down in a Hurricane).

I do like Los' statement that the last person to hit the unit should get the kill.

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Maybe not the last to hit, but the last to cause damage. It would suck to put 5 120mm AP rounds through someone while some bot cutter is raining on him, only to have the bot get the credit.

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kapps - you're talking about two different situations - and I agree with you on the latter - sometimes suicide is the only option.

But not when you're blowing the bejesus out of someone and they suicide to avoid getting killed.

I'm just thinking suicides should either be penalized, or incorporate some logic ie "if player suicides within X seconds of being shot, penalize; if player suicides outside X seconds, do not penalize."

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Are you sure it is players doing this?

Because Bots will ALWAYS suicide if they get: immobilized, run out of ammo, lose their gunner/ability to fire..

I think this is sort of a bug in the AI, but they will never call for extraction..

I'v never seen a player kill themselves when getting pounded.. But people do that sort of thing in lots of games to "annoy" the person trying to kill them or something.. Personally I don't care, it's a team game and they just lost a vehicle for their team that could have been extracted and are no longer a threat to my team, I count that as a kill personally.. Who cares if it's not on the score board?

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Maybe points should be awarded on the basis of damaged components, maybe weighted by the total 'value' of the vehicle or a 'difficulty of shot' function?! That would be totally fair! Ultimately killing the vehicle would only be a nice side-effect!

Regarding "cheats": lately I tend to park my Hermes next to the bases that I am supposed to conquer, both remaining unseen and shooting down all enemy reinforcements ... a very dangerous combination!

I would also be interested in some armor and penetration stats, especially for the 20mm!

Ohhhhh, with regard to the original topic: dare I ask to replace 'XXX killed himself' with 'XXX abandoned his vehicle' or 'XXXs crew bailed out'. I guess we do not have to many suicidal guys in our crews!

Best regards,

Thomm

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I think the problem is playing just for points, points that show up in the scoreboard after each scenario. It harms teamplay.

I know you guys might not be a part of this group but this group exists (I might be a part of it myself sometimes).

I wouldn't go all crazy if there would be only a team vs team scoreboard in the future, but I don't know what other poeple would say about that.

It could enhance teamplay when people wouldn't be as selfish as people can be sometimes. It would be an attitude change.

Oh and I saw a message on this forum where some developer or tester said that this last-one-to-damage/shoot-will-get-a-kill-even-the-target-kills-himself is been added in the future, or is a part of an update already.

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There are people who want to get as many kills as possible. Nothing wrong with that. There are people who want to play cooperatively and don't care how many kills they get. No problems with that. Forcing either of these behaviours to all players is bad. I really don't think the system should be made restrictive. When the team matches start, nobody will be trying to get as many kills as possible, but to achieve a win for the team. But the same players might want to go to a "deathmatch" server and there they might want to achieve as many kills as possible.

It would be good to make servers that are team-play centric and server that aren't. I believe this will happen automatically in the future.

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I like to see everyones score at the end of the game..

But your team winning should really be the main concern!

On the death/kill messages I'v noticed that some things don't report a kill, like turrets have no kill message..

And instead of saying "xxx kills yyy's zzz" perhaps it should say "knocked out" or "destoryed".. Just a personal thing but I find it kinda odd that I killed a lump of metal tongue.gif

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I think you're right, Drusus, about the server types, but I think there really should be in-game support. The whole kills/deaths thing encourages people to try and get a high kill score and a low deaths score even at the expense of their team.

I think there should be an option on the server to disable kill/death score displays. Then we can have the best of both worlds as long as we have enough players in the final release to support the choice.

While people will to a certain extent gravitate to different servers that have regulars that like teamplay/don't care about teamplay, being able to turn off the individual scores both discourages the lone wolf types and discourages the latent tendency in all of us to sometimes go for the individual "win" instead of the team's win.

The complaints in this thread about the scorekeeping I agree with 100% as well, and think also that turret deaths shouldn't count as a player death. Probably dropship deaths shouldn't either if the player wasn't in the dropship at the time.

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I agree about the teamplay aspect and the idea of team centric servers. I, for one, am just as happy when my team wins as when I get a lot of points.

Just yesterday I was defending on a server that was mostly bots. I took a Shrike and went out hunting for the attackers. I "killed" a lot in the sense that I got a hit that destroyed the turret and then the bot committed suicide. I was only credited for a few kills, but I was able to keep the enemy back long enough that they never got close to the objective.

Was I upset? No. I felt that I had made a valuable contribution to the team victory. However, it would be a lot more fulfilling if I was credited with killing those bots that committed suicide.

Perhaps the points scheme should be modified in the following way: Award points for damage, not just for kill. This way the points associated with killing a vehicle could be split between team members and points would be awarded for vehicle that were abandoned. I think that this would be a much fairer way to award points. Especially in situations where multiple team members are attacking the same enemy and vehicles are abandoned via suicide before the final kill.

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Originally posted by Netherby:

Are you sure it is players doing this?

Because Bots will ALWAYS suicide if they get: immobilized, run out of ammo, lose their gunner/ability to fire..

Pretty sure as the suicide happened just as the Rigtheous Wrath from my Hurricane was in flight towards them. :D

However, I don't see this happen as much anymore. Maybe players have stopped doing this, my post was when the beta was just released and a lot of new people were playing.

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I know I used to suicide all the time, before I found the "extract" button, so newbness definately has an effect. The AI still suicides all the time but it's rare that a human does.

HOWEVER, the potential for abuse is there. :(

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Originally posted by makaera:

Perhaps the points scheme should be modified in the following way: Award points for damage, not just for kill.

Good point!

There are situations where suicide is the only option. Sometimes you can't extract because you're too close to the defender and he will kill your drop ships every time you try.

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I dont think it should be damage based points because it doesnt cost the enemies team anything to pick up and repair a vehicle. I think it should instead be kill based plus points to the main damager or last hitter on suicides.

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How do you kill something that isn't alive?

I was part of a game modification that removed kills from the scoreboard, and I can honestly say it didn't really change the general player mindset. Players that just want to kill things will still do it.

In this game, kills and deaths don't even represent anything meaningful. Losing an AA turret counts the same as losing a hurricane. Knocking out a thor turret and disabling his engine is worth less than shooting a shrike with an ion cannon a few times. Letting a guy drop so you can shoot both his dropship and his vehicle (as opposed to just the dropship coming in) I think is worth more. You can switch places with a bot whenever your position looks untenable or the bot has targets that you want to kill instead.

This is too many places for abuse if people want to take a standard kill/death scoreboard seriously. I think something else should be used if anyone wants any sort of meaningful indicator of who 'helped the most'.

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You can all be sure that if this is annoying now, it will only get worse on release. The timer idea is best, you should get a kill credit if your target suicides within 20s of your last damaging hit. Only the last damaging hit is counted when assigning kills between more than one player.

This provides an incentive to actually finish off the target instead of crippling him and leaving him stranded, which might be an option if a suicide penalty were introduced. All suicides should count as a death (as they do now iirc).

Sorted smile.gif

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hit credits should be immediate for damage plus a bonus for finishing the crippled vehicle that should depend from the previously inflicted damege, this way if i pursue an enemy and finish him i'll get much more than just placing the final shot

i alwas try to go for the extraction and a scoring system like the one i propose would incentive to save a vehicle on the other side if they want to finish you thay have to follow you leaving the defensive positions......

achievement of team objectives should pay more individually, i'm thinking to BF1942 ans derivatives, when you get a flag you get point for your team (increase enemy tickets bleeding) but also for you directly

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