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mav1

Piling in one battle map

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I agree with JC mainly because of personal preference for smaller battles but I think Sailor has a good point that is not too far from real. Commanders only have so much time to make a decision as to what to do and they rely on current info as well as intuition (past experience) to make those decisions. They cannot sit around like CMers like to do and thoroughly analyze the situation. So a time limit seems to add that element that would be limiting factor to force size.

Having said that it seems that a time limit might favor those who are faster on the click and have memorized the hotkeys, all other things being equal.

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People who want time limits can play TCP IP and set a time limit. Stop trying to remove options for others. You already have them and can use them whenever you like. I for one play CM like chess and won't even look at a real time anything. I'd rather play tennis.

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Originally posted by JasonC:

Sgt Kelly - if you want to put entire divisions on 2 km maps, you would be free to do so under what I propose. You would never finish a campaign, any more than lots of people finished games of Campaign for North Africa or War in the Pacific, but its your funeral.

The question as I read it was not whether or not 2x2km is the right size for maps if size is fixed, or whether or not it would be better to have variable sized maps (obviously it is, although I'd like to see your suggestions for the implementation of it).

The question was, given fixed map sizes, should there then be a cap on the size of the force that can be deployed on them or not to stave off your dreaded super-coordinated all-deciding single ├╝berbattle syndrome. I am saying no to that and that's all I'm saying.

But don't try to break CMC by trying to force all of the rest of us to only fight on 2 km x 2 km maps all the time.

Have you looked at the screenshots ? 2x2 km is what it will be. I had nothing to do with that though.

The only point I'm trying to make is that you don't make up for a design limitation by introducing another one. I believe you said the very same thing if I understood you correctly. Fixed map sizes are not ideal, fixed map sizes coupled with fixed maximum force sizes are even less ideal.

Like you, I wish to see maximum flexibility for players and scenario designers and don't wish to ram anything down anyone's throat.

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Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

I've proposed letting the campaign designer pick the map size from a list of choices, 2x2 km the largest rather than required, with 1.5x1.5, 1 km by 1 km, 800x800, 500m by 500m also allowed.

And I explicitly stated that the phased arrival for large forces idea should be a scenario designer option, set with a switch, like rariety in CM.

With those additions, I'd happily run half a dozen CMC campaigns and design others. Without them, I won't be using it. If and when I have time I'll ref "sand table" editor CM campaigns, otherwise I'll make scenario packs.

Not fixing a broken design decision is not economy.

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Originally posted by JasonC:

Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

Indeed it does. I appear to have missed one of your posts. I apologize profusely for wasting your time.

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As long as I can allocate arty to the battle AFTER I have an idea about how large the opposing force is, I have no problem with overstacking.

And I certainly hope that most spotters will "carry" more than 25 rounds of the heavy stuff.

citizen

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Originally posted by JasonC:

People who want time limits can play TCP IP and set a time limit. Stop trying to remove options for others. You already have them and can use them whenever you like. I for one play CM like chess and won't even look at a real time anything. I'd rather play tennis.

Who said anything about real time? I am just suggesting an alternative to complete micro management. Also, vs the AI it would tend to restore some balance (since my CPU can do turns in far faster than I am proposing). I am just looking for possible alleviations to your problem, given (what I think) is a frozen design. You might not like it, but I don't think they are going to tear up the work thay have already done (might be wrong, of course)

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Hmmm,

Extrapolating further, why stop the map sizing at 500m x 500m? Why not 250m x 250m? Or, for quicker, lower density battles, 10m x 10m?

Obviously there's a lower limit. What is it? Why is that particular size a limit? What is the upper limit? Why is that the upper limit?

If I have a single SMG squad, does that force the map size limit lower, to more accurately represent my tactical level of control? If I have single Tiger II, do I have a larger limit map, again to more accurately represent the range at which I can exercise a tactical influence?

I see far more problems finding a solution with variable maps than with fixed maps.

If anyone wants to explore the questions I've raised and post reasoned answers, I'd love to read them.

I think the 2km x 2km map grid is a reasonable compromise to deal with operational game issues.

Regards,

Ken

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To be fair I think JasonC considered the difficulties of somehow determining the map sizes dynamically and that's why he would leave it up to the scenario designer (that was the key part of his discourse I had missed, conciseness also has its merits...).

I think that's a good compromise but, as Sailor Malan points out, not likely to happen.

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I'm certainly NOT trying to dismiss JasonC's map/force ideas out of hand. I AM trying to point out that any attempt to graft an operational layer on top of CMBB will be prone to problems.

If the CMBB map size is left to the CMC scenario designer, I forsee the SAME problem that JasonC has with a fixed 2km x 2km map. The only difference will be the size. Or, is it being posited that the CMC scenario designer will somehow step in for every CMBB generated battle? (That is not my understanding.) If there is a cropping feature, then my questions, above, still stand.

Adding the operational layer to CMBB creates problems. These, some at least, can be solved. I look at CMC as creating the ability to have variable forces in a CMBB game. That creates potential problems - as JasonC is stating. His solution is variable map sizes. I see that as destabilizing a solution. If it's hard to solve an equation with one variable, it will be harder to solve it with two variables. Having changing map sizes for every CMBB battle is introducing a variable to the game design.

I'm not convinced of his argument that CMC will be broken due to the ability to concentrate large forces. He may be correct: I am not convinced BECAUSE CMC has not yet been released.

I foresee easy solutions to prevent ahistoric force concentrations: Roadnet delays, command problems, degrading roadnet, rapid supply depletion, easy targeting, mass casualties due to air/artillery, encirclement, etc.

Massing is a different, though related, problem than map sizing. I am still trying to see how autocropping will work with forces like the one I mentioned. If all it will do is change one set of problems for another, why continue to argue for it?

Regards,

Ken

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