Victory flags in each CMBB map, a problem against the AI?

[Alter Ego]

Are you sure about this PeterK:

"Based on my attempts to sim. Red Barricades in CMBB, the AI does not react at all to the points handicap. It just wants flags. All Of Them"

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My experience with CMBB editor is that the AI only chooses One flag when it is advancing. If it is 1 km between the 4 flags; like in CMC it´s too long distance between the flags for the AI to care about the other 3 flags. Just a very few reached a second one.

Related topic: CMC Training and Possible Problems.

An unaggressive AI. (Scenario talk forum)

Anyone else with similar experiences?

or with no flags?

[ April 27, 2006, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Alter Ego ]

[Peterk]

The point of the argument was that if there are ever unposessed flags present, the CMBB AI will never decide "I don't have to attack, I can win handily if I just keep what I have now".

In the Red Barricades scenarios which I played against the AI, it was an obvious defensive situation for the russian AI....and it still insisted on attacking....always.

That is the problem. Whether the AI focusses on all the flags, a handful, or just one at a time isn't so important. It is going after flags when it shouldn't and doesn't even have to, to win.

[Ardem]

I think how hard would it be to add an extra line of code to improve the AI.

If I have a global morale less then 50% I should not attack, that would help some of the situation.

[Peterk]

Not really...if morale is less than 50% but a flag is still necessary to avoid a loss, then I would want the AI to throw something together.

It should be....

"Am I supposed to be defending in this scenario? Yes! Can I still win if I don't attack. Yes! Then I won't attack even if there's some flag somewhere that I don't have."

[Ardem]

I suppose but you would have to take morale into it for campaign type battles otherwise the AI will throw away all its troops on a well set up defence by the human player.

[PSK]

IMHO. Why at all bother with the AI??

It's NEVER a challenge to play against the AI in any strategically game.. not unless the AI got tons of advantages..

These games are meant to played against human opponents with a strategically sense!! Who can make right and wrong decisions!

[Kellysheroes]

Well speak for yourself PSK for I get very challenging games out of the AI and not by giving the ai TONS of advantages. I give it 10% more units and a +2 experience level and I play all kinds of quick battles including meeting engagements, assaults and defense.

The key to a good battle against the ai is "time" If you play long games the ai is more than likely going to lose. But, if you play around 30 to 35 turn games against it even though it does have this "get ALL flags" tendency the lower the amount of turns the better chances it has of winning.

Most of the games I play and setup for quick battles end up in "draws" or "minor victories" either for myself or occassionally for the AI. I'm happy with this for challenge. Though I certainly would like to see the AI not be so flag happy because that is where most of it's units end up getting killed or wiped out. The steady stream like Picketts charge at Gettysburg trying to take that hill with my 10000 men just waiting to pick them off 1 x 1. lol

One thing about its flag happiness is that it can keep me from getting that flags victory points by neutralizing the flag even at great losses of units. I play a lot of just infantry battles with around 2000pts and these are great fun and challenge without tanks or infantry guns just pure infantry a few machine guns and some mortars.

Most of my battles are AI German Crack/Veterans paratroupers vs British/USA Regulars/Green infantry reserves. Great fun.

Now in answer to your question: Why at all bother with the AI??

Because the majority of people buying and playing these games play them solo. Yes, you may not want to believe or accept this, but, time and time again polls have shown that solo/single player play vs the AI is what sells more of the games than any multiplayer feature in any of them.

I've played some pbem games of this series, but, I've certainly played more solo/single player games of it than I ever would multiplayer. I'm certain most out there have done the same.

[PSK]

I see your point there Sir,

But what I mean in these large campaign games that CMC is going offer, reserve forces, recon, intuition decisions and so forth, an AI really can't do them. Well.. at least I have never experienced that.

An AI can never offer the real war challenge that a human can... and that's only my humble opinion Sir..

[Joachim]

A very good dedicated AI with a mixed strategy and lots of computational power might actually do the trick. After all CM is just a more complex form of chess with FOW added. It is possible to have an AI that offers a challenge - but my guess is you need a supercomputer for that.

Some tricks I play to get a challenge out of the AI:

AI Attack/ME:

Amount of turns depends on the size (depth!) of the map and the amount of flags. Long battles ensure the AI has lots of time to attack ...slowly, as usual.

Few flags that are close together so the AI knows where to go or the flags are on the Axis of attack. The flags should not be in the best defensive ground ("valuable ground has VLs") but on a route where a human attacker would attack because it is the best route considering the terrain. Of course there is the risk of scripting the battle for the AI.

In a ME: AI can reach all flags quicker than the human player to offset "grab all flags problem".

Lots of bonusses for the AI to make up for its stupidity wasting units.

Reduced ammo for the human player.

Invincible units for the AI (KV in '41, Big Cats)

Dynamic flags.

AI Defense:

Lots of cheap units to wear out the human attacker.

Flags deep inside AI zone. Flags spread so the attacker can't reach them one after the other.

Defensive units that don't move. Some of them with AP capability

"Deep" and wide maps where the human attacker has to guard his flanks. The map size doesn't just depend on the amount of troops on them but on the effective range of them.

Gruß

Joachim

[Kellysheroes]

If only they had added one more option in the quick battles setup. The # of Victory point Flags.

From my play and observance I don't notice the AI beating me to the Flags very often in a ME. I even start at the back of the map and don't organize my units except for making sure everyone is in command control of their HQ's. And getting them out of immovable terrain.

This last battle I had was quite fun the AI over-ran my right flank like it was toilet paper. I did everything I could to hold that flag, but, they killed 90% of my forces and had taken another victory point flag in this particular ME game that favored their position (I couldn't reach it in time to hold or take it). I still had the main objective flag in the center and of course the AI made it's banzai attacks on it piecemeal the last few turns of the game and was cut to pieces. But, it did neutralize the flag and I didn't get victory points for it at end game.

Clearly it didn't have to advance on this flag it was ahead in points with two minor flags though my morale was a tad bit higher than theirs. By the end of the battle using a 30+ turn setting it resulted in a minor victory for myself. It should have been a minor for the German AI had it just held its ground and forced me to advance to gain victory points.

When I play with the AI on defense it is one tough nut to crack with the settings I use. Infantry guns well placed just cut me to pieces as I try to advance on some of the objective flags. But, even so, even when it's on defense those last few turns if I have taken an objective flag(s) here they come out of their "entrenched" positions (even when they are ahead) and try to take that flag(s) back. Thus causing them to lose or the outcome a draw.

Even so though the battles are quite fun and challenging. An overlooking the victory conditions the rest of the gameplay is fun and challenging up until the final few turns. It plays a decent game with decent settings of course in its favor. I just look at it like this though. There were times when less than crack or veteran organizations came upon crack and veteran opponents and had to figure out ways to overcome the odds and experience. So, I just happend to play these types of meetings often instead of looking for a balanced game like chess.

Playing against a human opponent can be quite the same as playing a lame ai. I've played countless human opponents who didn't give me as much challenge as the AI did. Obviously winning all the time isn't any more fun than losing all the time. When playing human opponents even that takes time to find someone challening to your level of play. Not to mention the time required to put into a game with a human, getting the times set, waiting for them to deal with family matters or them taking weeks to resend a PBEM game turn. At least the game AI is always ready to play when you are and doesn't have to stop the baby from crying or let the dog out.

I'm pretty sure with "Campaigns" I will be able to find an optimum setup for the AI to have very challenging games time after time. I've done it with all the Combat Mission series so far I don't think this one will thwart me.

And if you're looking for a challenging game against the AI for a campaign game of CMAK get the Wacth am Rhein(sp)campaign download. Oh man did I get smoked my first time playing it. Nobody told me the Ai was going to attack my rear FLAGS! lol This campaign is a armored players nightmare. (it's why I like just mostly infantry battles)

[Vergeltungswaffe]

There is one way to play the AI and not only enjoy it, but be challenged by it. That is to play by Franko's True Combat rules.

An updated sypnosis of that is here

It will actually work fine for quite a bit more than 700 points. Just takes longer.