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GreenAsJade

Tactical maps

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That's my point: in the CM:BB battles, the significant terrain is the small terrain features that will not show up on the battalion commander's map. So, the player in the CM:BB battle is more like the small-unit tactical leader than he is like the battalion commander and therefore the maps are useless to him in the battle.

In the CMC maneuvers, etc, the player is as you say like the battalion commander and to him the maps are useful for the reason you stated.

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Originally posted by Ike:

Speaking from personal experience on the battlefield, let me tell you all that maps are nice and useful to the HQ staff at Division, Brigade, and Battalion;

that's what he said ;)

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Originally posted by Ike:

That's my point: in the CM:BB battles, the significant terrain is the small terrain features that will not show up on the battalion commander's map. So, the player in the CM:BB battle is more like the small-unit tactical leader than he is like the battalion commander and therefore the maps are useless to him in the battle.

In the CMC maneuvers, etc, the player is as you say like the battalion commander and to him the maps are useful for the reason you stated.

I think the argument here was that seeing the CMBB 3D world isn't going to find you those small nuances to hide MG nests etc. if the player is prevented from putting units on the map and checking LOS from one spot to another.

Since you have military experience, let me ask you - how many deliberate assaults did you plan, and how much reconnaissance was done beforehand? How did it effect the battle you fought? Realizing full well the dictum of plans not surviving first contact, I'm not sure what position you are taking regarding seeing the specific terrain in CM:C before plotting moves. Are you pro or con?

The argument isn't just about maps, it is about prior reconnaissance and two key elements

a) what did a real life company or battalion commander know about the ground beforehand (as well as his platoon and squad leaders)

B) what is the best way to simulate that in CM:C and CMBB?

Given your experience I would expect a strong opinion on the last question and would be very interested to see your reply.

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Can't seem to find what I'm looking for in the clutter...

Is the game going to ship with or without a premade operational map, with all of the corresponding tactical CMBB maps ready to go?

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Russophile,

what do you want?

Everyone tells you, that maps and may they be the best ones available, are no substitute for a direct look at the battlefield.

The direct look at the battlefield is in our case the CMBB map.

The point is, that a CMC player can look at all the CMBB-maps in all detail if he wants. Therefore he can decide, which map is tactically suited best for certain MEs.

The operational player therefore has the knowledge that is usually restricted to the tactical commanders, when they are already ordered into an area.

The CMC-operational player can plan his operational moves with that knowledge.

It must be a huge advantage, over any operational player, that doesn't do so.

What is hard to accept, that so much info, is totally unrealistic?

But more important to me seems, that it is less fun to play, if you have to learn the CMBB maps prior - and you will have to do so, if your oponent is doing so.

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Originally posted by Steiner14:

Russophile,

what do you want?

Everyone tells you, that maps and may they be the best ones available, are no substitute for a direct look at the battlefield.

The direct look at the battlefield is in our case the CMBB map.

The point is, that a CMC player can look at all the CMBB-maps in all detail if he wants. Therefore he can decide, which map is tactically suited best for certain MEs.

The operational player therefore has the knowledge that is usually restricted to the tactical commanders, when they are already ordered into an area.

The CMC-operational player can plan his operational moves with that knowledge.

It must be a huge advantage, over any operational player, that doesn't do so.

What is hard to accept, that so much info, is totally unrealistic?

But more important to me seems, that it is less fun to play, if you have to learn the CMBB maps prior - and you will have to do so, if your oponent is doing so.

So the solution then is to ensure that either both players see the map beforehand, or neither do. A tournament save feature "locking" the maps will prevent this. So will the coding of the game, either we'll be able to see the maps before a CM:BB battle starts, or we won't. We've already agreed to disagree on whether this should be permitted, I say yes, you say no. End of issue until we actually see the game or hear from the designers; quite possibly they don't know yet how it will be done.

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Just to keep this rather futile discussion going, I don't think it's realistic to only give access to the CMBB maps to both players or neither player. At least in an established defence, the defensive commanders (including the operational level commander) would presumably know the terrain in the sector much better than an attacker would (since the defender is, well, occupying said terrain). In any event, I'd be surprised if anything other than house rules will determine how this will work...

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Originally posted by 76mm:

Just to keep this rather futile discussion going, I don't think it's realistic to only give access to the CMBB maps to both players or neither player. At least in an established defence, the defensive commanders (including the operational level commander) would presumably know the terrain in the sector much better than an attacker would (since the defender is, well, occupying said terrain). In any event, I'd be surprised if anything other than house rules will determine how this will work...

That's an excellent point, of course. Both players will obviously "see" the terrain after the CM:BB battle is generated during the setup but operationally speaking the defender would see the terrain first, ie by occupying it. (There are exceptions to this too of course...like arriving in the middle of the night and being told to occupy this ground ;) )

Once the CMBB battle is generated, both players have perfect information about the ground - this is a limitation that has always been inherent in CM and will not change now.

Tactical players will object that defenders are robbed of an advantage by this. Operational players will argue - as I am - that not seeing the maps in advance will provide an unrealistic burden on their planning.

I agree that seeing the maps in all their glory would be to provide information that is "too perfect"; the issue is that at present it seems to be all or nothing - and that "nothing" seems draconian.

If the CM:C maps end up being more detailed - with better defined masses, trees etc., - then I would think a reasonable balance has been achieved.

So yes - futility is the buzzword here as both camps will be disappointed, unless a cunning plan is put into effect...perhaps we will have to wait for CM:CX2...

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