Screenshot Complaint Comix: Commander, C an't You See...???!

[RuhrRiver]

Okay, these are screen shots from an actual "encounter" between my Red APC and a Blue Bradley overseen by Mark Ezra. More at the end.

My APC spotted and turned towards the Bradley and then watched it for 30--count them--30 seconds while it crossed in front of it, then stopped, spotted my APC, turned towards it, and fired.

Gotta be something odd happening there...

[Pandur]

doing nothing for 30 second while seeing a vehicle i only see when a vehicles doesnt have acover arc. than this stuff can happen. if it had one, than i dont know. was it hidden!?

related to BMP´s, while trying to figure out why BMP1´s dont use their 73mm gun on troops in houses sometimes, i noticed another odditty since 1.08.

when they try to fire a ATGM they unbutton to aim it. probably they aim them by "home made" ironsights on the launcher, thats also why they fail 9 out of 10 times.

no, seriously, they really unbutton to aim it, they did not befor 1.08. also they take ages to aim.

[Roter Stern]

Again, I vote for it to be mandatory for all (possible) bug reports to be submitted in a comic-strip format!

This reminds me of one slightly outdedthis thread - http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=003829;p=1#000012 - and more specifically the quick experiment I did , as seen in the two screenshots in that post.

It's worth noting that none of those AFVs had any arcs set and all of them reacted with fire with-in a second or two of spotting the enemy.

So it's pretty hard to say why something like that would happen ... perhaps the BMP was out of ammo that would be considered effective against the Bradley?

Originally posted by Pandur:

related to BMP´s, while trying to figure out why BMP1´s dont use their 73mm gun on troops in houses sometimes, i noticed another odditty since 1.08.

when they try to fire a ATGM they unbutton to aim it. probably they aim them by "home made" ironsights on the launcher, thats also why they fail 9 out of 10 times.

no, seriously, they really unbutton to aim it, they did not befor 1.08. also they take ages to aim.

I'm 99% certain that BMP-1s do not have an internal sighting system for the ATGM mounted on the roof - so the only way to fire it off in real life, is to unbutton and use the optics mounted on the launch tube. So this behavior in-game is actually quite accurate.

[John Kettler]

RuhrRiver,

Frustrating, but great as comics!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Fat Dave]

I had a similar experience with a non-reactive T-72 that had spotted a moving Bradley in the open at about 300 metres. Despite the full spot, it sat and watched it for 10 seconds or more. The side on Bradley stopped, turned and then fired off a TOW - which missed, exploding close behind the T-72. The reaction of the Red tank? Nothing.

The crew were 'spotting' yet apparently didn't see the danger close, nor did they pay much attention to the huge explosion of the first TOW. No shot fired, no reversal no smoke - it just sat there 'spotting' while the Bradley calmly adjusted and fired off it's second TOW which did not miss.

Bad luck? Or some weird spotting issue?

With the BMP's I have had terrible experiences. It really is hit or miss when you bring one of these into the fight. Even though as a player you know the rough position of the enemy vehicle you intend to take a shot at, the frustration levels rise as you carefully hunt your BMP into a position where you think it should be able to see its target - clear line of sight, no smoke, no trees - only for it to sit there, desperately spotting with clear blue target lines and get hammered by this unseen 'cloaked' Blue AFV.

Is the vision really that bad in these things? And why can't they open up exactly?

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by The Louch:

I'm 99% certain that BMP-1s do not have an internal sighting system for the ATGM mounted on the roof - so the only way to fire it off in real life, is to unbutton and use the optics mounted on the launch tube. So this behavior in-game is actually quite accurate.

My copy of Isby's "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army" (1988) states that the Sagger could be fired from under armour in either a SACLOS or MCLOS mode, depending on the version. With the MCLOS version, particularly at short range, it would probably be easier to control unbuttoned as this would remove the need to keep the sights on the target and the missile whilst controlling the missile. With a SACLOS system the turret sights would be mandatory.

Reloading can be accomplished from within the turret (there is a small hatch in the turret roof) but it requires the gun to be at maximum elevation and not firing and takes about a minute.

[RuhrRiver]

Thanks for responses/suggestions; I'll check on the ammo situation. I should say again that the Syrian APC appeared to spot the Bradley as soon as it came became visible to the APC--it turned towards the Bradley about 30 degrees so as to be head on..but then didn't turn to track the Bradley.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that it was set to "hide"---would that cause it to hold fire until the Bradley fired first? Seems like the "hide" order would be superseded by "you've been spotted."

[George MC]

Originally posted by RuhrRiver:

Thanks for responses/suggestions; I'll check on the ammo situation. I should say again that the Syrian APC appeared to spot the Bradley as soon as it came became visible to the APC--it turned towards the Bradley about 30 degrees so as to be head on..but then didn't turn to track the Bradley.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that it was set to "hide"---would that cause it to hold fire until the Bradley fired first? Seems like the "hide" order would be superseded by "you've been spotted."

I think the hide command overules the need to fire. I've had the same thing happen. You can give em traget arcs and set to hide which would mean they would do just that. Hide until soemthing goes into their LOS/LOF and within the cover arc then engage. So I don't think this is a bug as such. If I mind in CMX1 you get the same thing happening if you have units set to hide they are more likely to be overun UNLESS you give em a target arc.

Hope this helps. Great comic strip though

Cheers fur noo

George

ps if creating AI plans you have to watch out if you set units to hide cos the AI will follow the instruction to do that. If you want stuff to stay quiet but still fire if something comes close then use one of the ambush commands.

[RuhrRiver]

Thanks George Mc. I'll try setting a cover arc along with "hide" and see how it goes.

[MarkEzra]

Since I have All the save files I will get the correct files to BFC.

[Pandur]

wheres the differenc between a hidden vehicle with cover arc and a unhidden one without!?

i mean i cant see any, the vehicle is not physicaly hidden, means its as easy to spott hidden as unhidden. if you hide it and give it no cover arc, its obviously bad sometimes, but if you give it a arc its basicly the same result as a unhidden vehicle with or without arc.

i dont get the point.

I'm 99% certain that BMP-1s do not have an internal sighting system for the ATGM mounted on the roof - so the only way to fire it off in real life, is to unbutton and use the optics mounted on the launch tube. So this behavior in-game is actually quite accurate.

:mad:

damn it, i often loose "all" gunners if i manage to let them shoot of their missiles in a pack.

means when there is about only 15 meters or less between the vehicles and one gets hit, the 2 other gunners are dead too most of the time(no matter if they where aiming or realoading).

if i place em seperate they get picked off and killed seperate too as they are blind in their frontal arc.

[flamingknives]

Is the ATGM on the BMP1 a Sagger over the barrel or a Spigot or Spandrel on the roof?

If it's the Sagger it should remain buttoned while firing.

[Pandur]

no, i "think" they have a AT-4c or some low version of it.

but for sure they dont have a AT-3, at least i couldnt remember seeing a BMP in the game with a AT-3 in inventory.

[George MC]

Pandur

The point I guess is that the AI crew will do what they are told upon pain of death So you order em to 'hide' they do just that until they know they have been spotted.

Given how deadly and accurate modern weapon systems are that will usually mean they just die. However, give them a cover arc and they sit still all quiet and alert like till something enters their arc then they open up.

Off course what this highlights is that the AI can't differentiate between hiding in the open or when it's buried deep in cover - It thinks it's the same, and does as ordered. Least that's my take on it based on my own experience. Not sure if you've played CMAK, CMBB or CMBO but the same principle operates there. Units hiding tend to do just that regardless of terrain. So the player needs to give em some more info on which to operate i.e. covered arcs.

[Pandur]

However, give them a cover arc and they sit still all quiet and alert like till something enters their arc then they open up

and exactly here is the point, they do the "same" thing unhidden too...they sit there and open up but if you hide em you risk them to wait too long.

so i dont get the difference here.

i tried around to hide vehicles in CMBB also but i also got no effect and its the same as here i feel. all they can do hidden with cover arc, they do unhidden with or without cover arc too, sometimes more effective.

[ June 07, 2008, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

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[helm123]

And they wonder why the game is criticised.

[George MC]

I think the point I am looking to make is that at the end of the day your units are logic controlled entities. Up to a point they will obey orders. You order em to hide out in the open well they will do that. I mind similar discussions in CMX1 about units hiding.

The point made then, and I'll make now is that units can only hide in decent cover

So a BMP sitting by the side of a house is not decent cover if you are say, looking at it straight on. But if it 'thinks' it's hiding it's no idea it's been spotted till too late i,e, it explodes. But I'm pretty sure if you give it a target arc then it would open up, IF the enemy unit has moved within that target arc.

IMO it's better to either have stuff hide if you know it's in good cover and you want it to stay still, and no enemy contact anticipated. If you want it to stay quiet when enemy contact is anticipated then better to use target arcs down to your anticipated LOS range. Hope this makes better sense than my earlier ramblings.

[George MC]

Originally posted by helm123:

And they wonder why the game is criticised.

And your point caller?

[Moon]

The cominc strip would have been more useful if the BMP had been selected. That way we'd know what the crew was doing (is the gunner even alive?) and if that vehicle actually spotted the Bradley (and when).

As it is the screenshots show the combined global information from all Red units, meaning that one of them is seeing the Stryker, but that doesn't mean that the BMP that was killed did.

Martin

[Pandur]

what i think about RED vehicle spotting;

in the end thats all numbers, influenced by different factors. but i "guess" there is something like a "base" number wich resembles the spotting ability of a given vehicle without the other factors applied.

now since you cant feed the game data like "this vehicle has optics type X" and "that vehicle has optics type Y" you have to do that numeric, to do that you have to "make up" some numbers/values.

now, i personally feel that the "numbers" are slightly too bad for the "lowest end" of the RED sides vehicles. at the level of a T55/62 MV or a T72M(early) the vehicles are still slow but they start to work and you can "plan" with them in a way it feels right.

so, i dont know, maybe they could be helped a bit in their frontal arc spotting. it realy feels a bit too washed out, like you need more luck than tactics, better dice rolls than decisions.

may take on that.

[Moon]

PS. Oops, should have read the thread more thoroughly. Disregard what I posted above. It's quite clear that the HIDE order for the BMP is the most likely cause. It might have been better to use HIDE and a TARGET ARC.

Martin

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[Fat Dave]

Adam1, I feel your pain sneaking up on an Blue AFV feels like the odds are stacked against you. The vital seconds it takes to 'see' an out in the open Blue AFV will usually be enough to get you killed.

An old hunting friend of mine once told me that it was the getting in position bit that was the hardest part of the stalk while the actual taking of the shot was the easiest.

At the moment I feel slightly 'cheated' when the stalking has been done, only to fail by not 'seeing' the Blue target when it matters

[RuhrRiver]

Okay, I've done some tests. Using this setup:

Can't see them very well, but those are two Syrian APCs in between the buildings. I ran Bradleys past them at "quick" and "move" speeds along the track shown by arrows 2 (a few hundred meters) and 1 (about 50 meters). Some conclusions:

1. If the Syrian APCs were set on "hide," they tracked but never fired, no matter what. Even if a Bradley stopped 50 meters away giving the "hiding" Syrian armor a clear shot at its rear armor, the Syrian did nothing.

Not only did the Syrians in hiding not fire when the Bradleys went past, they didn't fire back when fired upon--probably because they died so quickly.

In fact, in an earlier test I had Syrian tanks hiding, and a Bradley going past spotted a tank (about 100 meters away) and started firing, went on (firing) a ways, then turned around so it could fire while facing front. The undamaged "hiding" Syrian tank didn't fire back. I only did this once, though, so don't know how unusual that was.

2. If I set a Syrian APC to hide and placed an arc:

At 50 meters (red arrow) it was very hit or miss as to whether the APC would fire at a Bradley going past--especially if the Bradley was moving fast.

At about 400 meters (black arrow), the Syrian APC on "hide" with an arc reliably fired at the Bradley with a missile and killed it.

Lesson: "hide," as several people have pointed out, apparently means "don't fire in almost any circumstance," and is not useful for setting up an ambush--unless you add an arc and there is enough time for the hiding vehicle to react.

I haven't tried comparing hide with an arc to just an arc or no arc--be interested to know if anyone else knows from testing how those compare in reaction time.

Thanks Moon and everyone else for the observations and suggestions.

[ June 08, 2008, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: RuhrRiver ]