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Michael Dorosh

So, who's disappointed?

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well personaly the game intersts me.

But to call adding major nations like britain and germany to hard ridiclous.

Sorry steve but until a module(if there is one) that gives me more than 2 nations to play as, then i aint gettin the game.

The same applies for all cmx2 games, and if the grand total comes to more than 30 quid per title including modules then well it looks like you've lost a customer who bought all three cm1 games.

Im not a cash cow to be milked.

But for now im willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

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"So take a chill pill and realize you aren't the only foce in the universe and accept the fact that other people should get a shot at something they want to see, not just you."

You see, I knew I didn't matter to you. I'm just a self-centered customer who can only think about himself. Hmmm. Yes, selfishness defines a customer all right. I thought about myself every single time I bought your games, and recommended them to others. They were fun! And they were fun because of the game engine, authenticity, and subject matter. You've taken a vital leg away from that stool, and still expect it to stand.

And you're the noble game designer who is giving that vast majority of gamers what they want to game - Syria. I don't believe that for a minute. But I'm willing to let those hundreds of thousands of guys have their turn. But... I read your rationale and it was a big red flag - you actually whined about how hard it is to saturate yourself in the subject matter that formed your success. Could it be that WW2 afficionados are not the majority of CM game buyers? What I read in your initial revelation was that you were bored, and you're playing the pipes and hoping that we all will follow. What if I'm not bored?

Aw heck, why waste the pixels. I know you don't care. I don't even feel better for replying as though I got it off my chest.

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Originally posted by juan_gigante:

Europa, Steve has stated that their will be suicide bombers for the Arabs, and that there won't be civilians. And considering that there were roadblocks in CMx1 games...

Ok, ok! I just dislike the entire setting. First off, there is no history to be drawn upon. Even if we gain the freedom of forming our own scenarios we have, in my oppinion, lost so much more.

Second, why Syria? It's just Iraq under a different name. It sort of sickens me.

As I said earlier I'll probably buy it since I like the other games and want to support the company but wtf are you guys thinking when you place this game in the middle east in the near future?! Unless Syria got nukes they are more or less smoked in every battle that isn't so rigged that it got nothing to do with warfare or just plain boring to play... How many american casulties are there in Iraq now? Not that many. Is that because the Iraqs have a chance vs. the americans or are they just outgunned. Blah. I dislike this.

Since my english isn't better than this I now withdraw.

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Originally posted by juan_gigante:

And Captain Wacky, what if one does not have unlimited air/arty? What if one is being harassed by snipers and can't call down air/arty over the whole area? Steve has stated that the US player will have limited amounts of air/arty support. Rest assured that few engagements will play out like you described.

That's not my only concern. How detailed will the orders engine be? Can I assign FPFs in the defense? Can I assign machine guns a PDF or FPL? Can I give engagement criteria per size or composition of the enemy?

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I'm not that interested in the setting, but I'm not uninterested either. I have full faith in BFC's ability to make a good game/sim, and I also understand what Steve has said about doing a top-down build: design for maximum scope initially, and it's obviously easier to move around within that scope later on.

One thing I'm not clear on is the scaling of the releases - is the gap between CM:SF and CM:WWII-o-philes Rub One Out Again anticipated to be a 6 month "module" gap or a 1-2 year "game" gap?

And as far as the setting, I think Steve has hit the probablility bullseye dead center.

-dale

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Im not a cash cow to be milked.
And we're not slave labor do do your bidding just because you want what you want. Call it what you will, but unless you've been a part of this side of the equation you don't know squat about what you're talking about.

We aren't changing our strategy to milk people... we're changing our strategy so we stay in business. I know you guys love to have your cake and the whole damned sweets shop all in one go, but then again you don't have to worry about anything other than satisfying your surgar addiction. The shop owner has a lot more to be concerned about.

Steve

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but steve your then doing what the majority of games companies dont do.

E.g bf 1942 and??????????????????????????????????

Im not paying full price for a half game and then spend another 30 to fill it up.

I made that mistake with bf 1942.

Its not a case of wanting my cake and eating it.

Its just im not being ripped off.

Like i said ill give you the benefit of the doubt, but without naming names other games companies can fit more in games without the need for modules and sell it under 30 quid a title.

And before you say it there nto all massive game's companies either.

Im sorry you seem to hae taken my comments so personaly, i was not judging that you were doing this. I was simply as i have said not paying 60 quid for a game im not massivly interested in.

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You see, I knew I didn't matter to you
Not correct. It is just that you don't matter any more than any other customer. Check out the many comments we have received so far, from the hardcore WWII fans I might add, that are very excited about this change of setting. Are you saying that they don't matter? If you think they do, then what are we to do? Only release the games you want? That's the point here... there is no ONE customer. And what about all those "hardcore WWII customers" who didn't buy CMBB and CMAK because "I don't care about Russians" or "I don't care about the desert". Should we not have made CMBB because there were no American units to play? Should we not have made CMAK because it offered "nothing new"?

The point is that we never have, and never will have, a single customer to cater to. Anybody that can not understand that is so far out of the discussion they should just not engage in it. So what this REALLY boils down to is "I didn't get what I want and I am mad". It has nothing to do with anything else. Your butts aren't on the line if we came up with a game that nobody wants to buy, so why pretend to be concerned about that?

As burned out as we might be on WWII, we didn't pick CM:SF at random and despiration. It was carefully chosen and, I think, will probably do better than any of our previous CMx1 titles. That wasn't the reason behind switching from WWII, but we did choose a topic that we thought would sell well. And since that decision made in 2003, we've only seen reinforcement that we're doing the right thing.

You'll get your WWII game and it will be great, I'm sure. But you you have to wait for it. Sorry you can't have everything on demand like you want. The world will go on.

Steve

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Whether you think Syria is right or wrong, or there is a problem with the actaul background scenario, I think what the game is actually about is letting you face the kind of things that in real live soilders are currently having to face, and are training to face.

That will make it a "Challenge" and therefore for me something worth trying and buying. It also opens the door for a whole series of "Peacemaker" modules, covering everything from Africa to the Collapse of Beloruss.

As to the US just blowing them away, well that might depend on how close they were, and what you were allowed to use.

Sure you can whistle up an airstrike but if they attack you you might have a ten minute wait and as we all know from CM1 waiting ten rounds for the top cover to arrive can make them three or four late.

Also depending on how they do victory conditions casualties could be a big factor. If you put the VP's at 25 to 1, then you could lose if in blowing away an opposition company one of your squads got wasted.

One big difference between now and WW2 is the political and public attitude to casualties, these days in a very real sense,

"It's not how hard you hit, but how much you can take".

Rightly or wrongly a lot of people see the US as a heavyweight with a glass jaw, remember the First headline suicide bombing was in the Lebanon twenty years ago, and that a bit like BHD in Somalia undermined the whole operation.

Some of you might not like having to fight with your attention always on minimising casualties over killing the enemy, but if you want a realistic simulation of modern warfare you need to have it.

Today commanders on the ground can quite literally withdraw from an inferior force, if it looks determined to cause casualties regardless of loss to itself. Sounds mad, but thats what happens when you go to war at the behest of "Risk Averse" politicians.

Peter.

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I think that many people who are rejecting CM:SF solely based on the setting need to reserve judgement until the game (or demo) comes out. Hell, I wasn't a Eastern Front fan when I bought CMBB. But I knew that it would be a good game, so I got it anyways. It turns out that CMBB rocked pretty hard, and it spurred my own interest in the Ostfront, and now I would consider myself a East Front fan. Same story (but less so) with CMAK.

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Its not a case of wanting my cake and eating it.

Its just im not being ripped off.

So you know how much we've earned and how many hours we put into our games? You know that we've got mountains of money and couldn't possibly need any more? Great... so where do I go to collect my ill gotten gains?

Like i said ill give you the benefit of the doubt, but without naming names other games companies can fit more in games without the need for modules and sell it under 30 quid a title.
Name one that is even remotely relevant. I can think of few RTS and FPS games that offer the sort of stuff you're demanding, and although they charge about the same as we do they do have a couple of million Dollars available just for their marketing, not to mention 60-100 people making their games.

Sorry... you simply haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Im sorry you seem to hae taken my comments so personaly, i was not judging that you were doing this.
You intended them personally and so they were taken personally.

I was simply as i have said not paying 60 quid for a game im not massivly interested in.
This is the only thing you've said that I can agree with. If you aren't interested in it, why should you even pay 1 quid? I wouldn't expect you to buy Barney Reads the Alphabet no matter what the price and how many of Barney's friends were included. Or to put a British spin on it, Thomas The Engine Reads teh Alphabet ;)

Steve

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I still just shake my head every time I see someone say that our choice of setting "will never happen". When I see that I see someone who spends too much time looking into past history than recent history, not to mention no time thinking about near future history yet to come. I am not saying we're predicting the future here, but comparing CM:SF to Germany attacking France simply is juvenile or naive or a combo. I smell "spilt milk" when I see comments like that.

I don't doubt that the US Army is training with Syrian scenarios in mind, even with Iranian scenarios in mind; that's their job, after all, to be prepared for any eventuality.

But what's the real world likelihood of either happening, in the direct troops-on-the-ground sense?

That's not spilt milk, that's a desire to have gaming have some sort of real resonance. A fictional Syrian setting just seems odd when there are other modern day combat settings that would have been more believable.

As I mentioned before, if it had to be modern day, why not Germany 85, with a little more breadth and depth to the game?

I have the sense that this is just the game that you want to develop, and if that's the case, well, fair play, you worked hard to be in the position where you could do that.

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Originally posted by Dillweed:

I love it, and anyone who doesn't can shove it

:D

I think contempory is as equally if not more challenging that WW2 tactical combat.

Hence I am really looking forward to both titles!

w00ty w00t w00t!!! :cool:

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I would be very interested in doing a Civil War game (again since I produced Civil War Generals 2 many years ago). I'd also love to do a fantasy type game with elves and trolls too. Same with the much discussed Space Lobsters. If CMx1 was a major improvement over ASL, just think of what CMx2 could be for XCOM :D

Steve

Hey, I've been playing that on and off for the past few months :D

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I will probably buy CM:SF, though I am not a modern nut, it looks interesting.

I am unlikely to pick up the second title though as I have been playing western europe 44-45 for the last 6 years and with a much vaster oob and scope than any cmx2 game is likely to provide.

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Looking at the criticism in this thread of our Syria setting one would conclude that nobody knows anything about recent history.

Steve

Don't mind, Steven, I bet the most people on this forum can't even find Syria on a map! tongue.gif

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Originally posted by Scipio:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Looking at the criticism in this thread of our Syria setting one would conclude that nobody knows anything about recent history.

Steve

Don't mind, Steven, I bet the most people on this forum can't even find Syria on a map! tongue.gif </font>

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Well The new format of Modules might not be as comprehensice as CMBO,BB or AK, but over the years I've had more than my moneys worth.

Since I switched to OSX I haven't played CM much at all, but I bought Halo and BF42, and lost interest in both within a fortnight, as once you are through the scenarios and have played on line a bit ( if you can stand the fact that no one gets tired , you find ammo everywhere, can cure yourself, and very one bounces about like kangaroos), the excitment wares off.

The ability to create an endless number of variations on a theme will still be there, and that's where the richness of the game lies.

Playing CMBB you had a huge range of vehicles to choose from , but my average sceanrio was PzIV's v T-34's, with basic infantry.

Sure I used the obscure stuff and occationally used enough russian rockets to tilt the earth off it's axis, but by and large it was common or garden units in run of the mill terrain, and it remained ( and still does) challenging and enjoyable.

I honestly know of no other game where you can set basically the same game parameters time and again and get a new experience every time.

I for one am looking forward to doing that in a modern setting.

Peter.

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Originally posted by roqf77:

Like i said ill give you the benefit of the doubt, but without naming names other games companies can fit more in games without the need for modules and sell it under 30 quid a title.

And before you say it there nto all massive game's companies either.

Id like to see some names too roq smile.gif .

As the guy who makes the 3D models for these games I would be very interested in knowing which games you are referring too here. I know how long each model takes to build and texture at this detail I would love to know about these smaller game companies who are doing similar.

Dan

[ October 08, 2005, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

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Very disappointed with this choice of subject matter. I think I'll continue to play CMx1 games (CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK are outstanding games by the way) and pass on this one.

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Where is Syria:

When the Secretary of State was recently approached by a Syrian newspaper reporter and accusingly asked, "Isn't it true that only 13 percent of young Americans can locate Syria on a map?"

The Secretary stopped, turned, and stated "Yes, it's true. But, unfortunately for you, all 13 percent are United States Marines."

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