Improvements over Time?

[Andrew Kulin]

Steve has been saying in a number of his posts about improvements and the like being implemented over time.

As I understand, BFC is trying to code this game so that it is:

1. Easier/quicker to bring add-ons to market

2. The 'theatres' covered by any such add-on is a sub-set of a larger operational theatre (e.g., Battle for the Schedlte vs. NW Europe 1944-45, Ortona vs. Italy 1943-44, Hong Kong 1941 vs. Pacific War)

So given the overall core structure of the game system implied above, will improvements to the game over time be patched back to earlier modules? For example, say star-shells do not make it into the original CMx2.0 but are added later on into the next 'theatre' presented by BFC, CMx2.1. Will the improvements of star-shells be available to battles set-up and fought in the CMx2.0 'theatre' (to those who buy CMx2.1) [evil marketing guys should think about this as a way to get us all to part with our money - we may not be interested in the particular 'theatre', but boy do we really want those star-shells for the other theatres )

And while I am at it, will the overall CMx2 game system be set-up with a CMx2 'shell' that we can access all the modules we own from a single start-up, or will we have to launch a separate program for each 'theatre' as is the case with CMx1?

Andrew

[Holman]

I sure hope that changes to the engine will be back-ported to earlier modules. The one sadness about the release of CMBB was that CMBO didn't seem "right" any more, and so I quit playing in NW Europe.

[hoolaman]

This is something that is of interest to me as well.

I am pretty sure BFC's business model for future releases has been well and truly decided by now, but I second the hope that all releases will be back update-able.

I seem to recall Steve saying some releases will be "modules" and some will be "games". From that I understand that maybe the first game would be a WW2 engine, and each module released for that game would be something like a patch, with new units, some new game features, and a new "story" set of battles. The next "game" might have significantly different game mechanics like cavalry, guided missiles, catapults etc.

BFC said they will announce the first TWO games, which might be a clue. I suspect we may end up being spoiled for choice, and maybe that is what BFC is going for. Of course I amlmost entirely making this up, but we won't have long to find out what's going on, as the subject and game releases will be one of the first real details amnounced.

[Battlefront.com]

The thought is that Modules will focus on adding new functionality to the game, but not new features. This means a Civil War release would see several Modules that didn't do much to change the core of the game system, rather add a whole bunch of other game features like terrain, units, weather, etc. Things like CoOp multiplayer or what not would most likey come out with the next game release.

We hope to be able to have the changes be backwards compatible. There are far more reasons why this won't work than will work, so we can't make promises. Simply put, we can not afford to spend our time giving away stuff for free. You buy the game "as is" and that is the end of the customer's rights. That's that. However, if we can release the advances for nearly no work, we probably will simply out of the goodness of our hearts (and I am not being sarcastic).

If such easy upgrading is not possible (and it likely won't be) we do have another option. Charge for it just like every other software company in the world. For example, we could offer a fairly inexpensive download only upgrade. Those of you who have had your fun with the game and are ready to move on will be all set. Those of you that want to eek another year or two of gameplay out of a rather inexpensive piece of entertainment... for a modest amount of money you can basically get some sort of major new game experience.

With CMx1 it simply wasn't worth our time to make such an upgrade. For CMx2, because of the modularity of the code, it shouldn't be prohibitive for us to do it. Not necessarily easy, but not horribly costly like CMx1. That gives us options at least.

Steve

[Mord]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

If such easy upgrading is not possible (and it likely won't be) we do have another option. Charge for it just like every other software company in the world. For example, we could offer a fairly inexpensive download only upgrade. Those of you who have had your fun with the game and are ready to move on will be all set. Those of you that want to eek another year or two of gameplay out of a rather inexpensive piece of entertainment... for a modest amount of money you can basically get some sort of major new game experience.

Steve

You want my money now or should I wait?

Mord.

[Yair Iny]

I see (I think) a lot of similarity between this model of a 2 axis advance - theatres and engine capabilities, with the Airborne Assault series. Highway to the Reich (covering Market Garden) is a great game, but now Conquest of the Aegean will offer new features as well as a new theatre. Thus, CotA will cost around 50$ but the new features will be available later as an upgrade to HTTR for around 20-30$.

Similarly, if say the first CMx2 game is a Normandy invasion theatre, and doesn't have Coop play, I would be glad to pay 50$ for say the next release which would be e.g. a Kursk battles (not just the defense ) theatre and enabling coop. Then I would be happy to pay 20-30$ to get coop in the Normandy invasion theatre.

So, if BF can make this work (and as a software R&D guy myself, I know it is very difficult to achieve reliably), it would be a great business model for them. They could be genarating upwards of 100$ per release what with the new theatre and a couple of upgrades for previous two favorite theatres bought by each loyal customer.

Only hope is that they release them in a (much) higher rate than the Airborne Assault games.

Cheers

[76mm]

I'll be happy to pay for new modules with new units, terrain, functionality, etc. My only concern is that even after releasing several modules for a particular game, you will still only cover a tiny fraction of the campaigns and units available in CMBB and CMAK. Have you considered/decided allowing qualified third parties to develop modules for you to help flesh things out?

Also, as new modules are released, will all of the previous modules' terrain, units, etc. be available for use in later modules, and vice-versa? For example, if the first module is Normandy, second module the Bulge--will players be able to use units from the Bulge module to create scenarios in the Normany module? Or use the Bulge winter terrain with the Normany units? (These modules might not be the best example of how this would be useful, but hopefully you get the idea...)

Thanks,

76mm

[Battlefront.com]

We've not rulled out 3rd party development, but we aren't considering it at the moment. Time will tell.

Yes, the plan is to allow the Module content to work together seamlessly. For example, if there were a Normandy game without Tigers and a Bulge Module with Tigers... you could boot up Normandy and Tigers would be available to purchase. All we have to do, I think, is simply set the availability dates along historical lines instead of to the limitations of a Module's timeframe. Meaning, even though the Bulge Module would start in December 1944 the Tiger 1 E would have a start date of sometime in 1943 (can't remember exactly when ). So any Module, or the main game, that takes place in that timeframe will have the Tiger available. The one problem is the vehicle graphics for a situation like this... I can't see us making a summer set of textures for a winter only Module. There are ways around that though.

Steve

[dalem]

Originally posted by 76mm:

I'll be happy to pay for new modules with new units, terrain, functionality, etc. My only concern is that even after releasing several modules for a particular game, you will still only cover a tiny fraction of the campaigns and units available in CMBB and CMAK.

I disagree. Depending on era, theater, and timeline, I bet they can give us OBs that will serve us pretty well for our own "expansion" scenarios. Maybe it'll take a few modules for us to really get enough to round out our choices, but if they can do the rate they say they want, say one module every 6 months, I think we'll be pretty happy unit choice-wise.

-dale

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by dalem:

I disagree. Depending on era, theater, and timeline, I bet they can give us OBs that will serve us pretty well for our own "expansion" scenarios. Maybe it'll take a few modules for us to really get enough to round out our choices, but if they can do the rate they say they want, say one module every 6 months, I think we'll be pretty happy unit choice-wise.

-dale

Agreed. Assuming WWII, which I do, so much of the research has already been done, so the coding, functionality and mechanics are what they will spend time on, meaning we very likely will get new modules in a timely fashion.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

Agreed. Assuming WWII, which I do, so much of the research has already been done, so the coding, functionality and mechanics are what they will spend time on, meaning we very likely will get new modules in a timely fashion.

I'm leaning WWII myself, but the more I think about it, the more I could see them going "modern". The old Avalon Hill hex game "Firepower", although at a different scale (single man), approached it by breaking down each squad TO&E from each nation into time periods, and covered 1950 through 1980.

Now, a CM-scale game would need battalion/company TO&Es plus vehicles, so they could go in 10-year increments. Say the first one is 1950-1960. That would give us the Korean War and potentially others. 1960 - 1970 gives us African bush wars, and Southeast Asia. Etc. Then there is all the India-Pakistan, Sino-Russian fighting about which I am woefully ignorant.

Something like that could work, I think. And be a fun way to pull me into buying more books.

-dale

[76mm]

Steve,

Thanks for the response and that's great news about module-sharing.

Regarding Dalem and Vergelt responses that all we need is a couple of modules to basically cover the map--I don't really see how you get there. Given the relatively narrow scope of each module as I understand it, the Eastern Front might require the following modules to approach the scope of CMBB:

--Barbarossa (summer)

--Moscow 1941 (winter)

--Kharkov (summer)

--Stalingrad (Winter)

--Kursk

--June 1944

--Winter 1944

--Spring 1945

--Partisan warfare

You could break down other major fronts in a similar manner, although I suppose that depending

on the sequence in which modules are released, you might be able to simulate the Eastern Front in the summer of 1943 with units from a Stalingrad module and the summer terrain from a Normandy module, but it would look weird as hell having the French buildings.

This is before you even get into minor theaters/campaigns--Crete, France 1940, Poland 1939. Even if modules are released every six months, in two years we'll only have four modules--say, Normandy, Kursk, Alamein, and Market-Garden? I don't see how we'll ever get close to the vast scope as the original games, although maybe third party developers could pick up some of the slack.

I understand why Battlefront is moving to the module format, agree that it makes perfect sense, and have no problem paying for modules as they come out--my only concern is that they won't come out fast enough.

76mm

[junk2drive]

76mm, tell us what your next book deal is and we will know what the game title is going to be

[76mm]

No book, because I can't find enough source material about Space Lobsters...ooops!

76mm

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The one problem is the vehicle graphics for a situation like this... I can't see us making a summer set of textures for a winter only Module. There are ways around that though.

Steve

You'd probably have to beat the volunteers away with a stick if that was the only "problem."

[Battlefront.com]

We hope to keep the speed of Modules up. They should go fairly quickly. But we also need to make sure we don't flood the market. There are only so many things you guys are willing to buy during one period of time, no matter how much interest you have in the stuff.

Gordon, we're counting on help... there's no other way to do it since Dan and Fernando have to keep working on the main titles. They'll have downtime here and there, but that won't be enough. Fortunately, the CMx2 is sooooo much easier for us to work with so outside help should be a lot easier to utilize

Steve

[hellfish]

I'm very interested to hear how the "help" will work. Strictly voluntary, fixed-rate (e.g. $100 per completed model or scenario) or based on sales ($0.20 per model/scenario per module sold), something else entirely...

And as for flooding the market, I can't imagine that'd be a problem (for me anyways). Depends on price, I suppose, but if you've got two games currently in print with a couple modules for each, I'd buy them all - as long as the subject matter interested me. I might not buy them as they just arrive on the market, but I'd certainly pick it up eventually (maybe with other products to minimize shipping costs).

[FredKors]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We've not rulled out 3rd party development, but we aren't considering it at the moment. Time will tell.

Yes, the plan is to allow the Module content to work together seamlessly. For example, if there were a Normandy game without Tigers and a Bulge Module with Tigers... you could boot up Normandy and Tigers would be available to purchase. All we have to do, I think, is simply set the availability dates along historical lines instead of to the limitations of a Module's timeframe. Meaning, even though the Bulge Module would start in December 1944 the Tiger 1 E would have a start date of sometime in 1943 (can't remember exactly when ). So any Module, or the main game, that takes place in that timeframe will have the Tiger available. The one problem is the vehicle graphics for a situation like this... I can't see us making a summer set of textures for a winter only Module. There are ways around that though.

Steve

This is great! I think I will buy the first dozen of modules...