Units and how they are controlled

[dalem]

Avalon Hill's "Firepower". Hex-based modern skirmish game. Essentially a miniatures game on a hex board. I only played a few times but had a lot of fun.

Link to description.

-dale

[Cpl Steiner]

That's the fella. Cheers dalem. One thing this game had that would be lovely to see in CMx2 was the ability to create custom squads. I once made up a scenario recreating the exploits of a half squad of special forces guys based on the novel "The Five Fingers" (see link).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0552109541/qid=1125550203/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/026-7541544-7465246

[Cpl Steiner]

Back on the subject of unit control..

In CMx1 you order a squad to go from A to B and they all move together. However, you can split the squad into 2 roughly equal teams and have one team go forward, then move up the next, etc.

In CMx2, Steve has already stated that it will now be possible to order a squad to "Advance by Leapfrog" (or some other such order). This tells the AI that one squad should cover another as they move from A to B.

Now, presumably we can still split squads in CMx2. This would allow us to split up the squad into its respective teams, so we could in effect micromanage the same sort of bounding or leapfrog behaviour for greater control in some situations.

In CMx1, teams are inherently more "brittle" when split from the squad. In CMx2 however, every squad seems to be effectively split, to allow the AI to do the leapfrog behaviour.

Will a team become "brittle" like in CMx1 if you split it from the squad, or will it have to be over a certain distance from the rest of the squad due to the fact that it is already shown as split by the AI and graphical respresentation?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by dalem:

Avalon Hill's "Firepower". Hex-based modern skirmish game. Essentially a miniatures game on a hex board. I only played a few times but had a lot of fun.

Link to description.

-dale

Sniper! and the add-ons by TSR were the same scale, poorer graphics, but much more fun IMO. Ever try it?

Ever wish there was a computer version? The closest we came was, God help us, "Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" for the PC. Which stank to high heaven.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

Avalon Hill's "Firepower". Hex-based modern skirmish game. Essentially a miniatures game on a hex board. I only played a few times but had a lot of fun.

Link to description.

-dale

Sniper! and the add-ons by TSR were the same scale, poorer graphics, but much more fun IMO. Ever try it?

Ever wish there was a computer version? The closest we came was, God help us, "Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" for the PC. Which stank to high heaven. </font>

[Tero]

A couple of random guestions:

Will the player be to alter the squad/team make up during game play (say order all automatics to one squad or form an AT team) ?

Will the command etc bonuses (or penalties) be individual unit specific or will the command squad still determine them for the subunits ?

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Sniper! and the add-ons by TSR were the same scale, poorer graphics, but much more fun IMO. Ever try it?

Ever wish there was a computer version? The closest we came was, God help us, "Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" for the PC. Which stank to high heaven.

Never tried the ones you mention, no. Always meant to get Sniper but never did.

-dale

[Shmavis]

I apologize if this has been mentioned or if you can actually do this with CMx1 and I just never figured it out, but I would like to be able to plot waypoints for groups of units that I have selected, not just one movement order.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Shmavis:

I apologize if this has been mentioned or if you can actually do this with CMx1 and I just never figured it out, but I would like to be able to plot waypoints for groups of units that I have selected, not just one movement order.

You are correct, it is only possible to give one waypoint to a group, and I agree, it is a pain. Often you want an entire platoon to skirt around a hill, and after the first group waypoint you are forced to add individual extra waypoints. It would be better if each time you clicked on the map it added a waypoint to all units selected. You could always edit the waypoints after to maintain gaps between units etc. I do think this would speed up orders plotting, which has to be a good thing for CMx2.

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, you can still split squads. Not encouraged any more in CMx2 than it was in CMx1. Splitting the Squad will not yield the kinds of gamey benefits as in CMx1 because of the way individiual Soldiers engage in combat. Brittle penalty will not happen inherently, but it could if the split off team has a weaker team leader than the squad leader. In other words, you lose the squad leader's bonuses. Also, now the split off team is likely to be easily left out of C&C. With Realtive Spotting this can be a pretty darned big deal.

No, you can not change the composition of your squads on the fly. I doubt this happened much in real life since you'd have to also spend time swapping around ammo and equipment. Not something you can do quickly and CMx2's scenario timeframe is still set for roughly the same as CMx1.

All units have Leaders. Bonuses are now Leader Based.

Group plotting isn't something we are likely to get into the game right away. We're going to try, but there are a ton of practical considerations we're going to have to sort through.

Steve

[Cpl Steiner]

As CMx2 will allow a squad to advance by leapfrog, causing constituent teams to cover each other's movement, why not have a similar order for groups of units such as a platoon.

Here's how it could work. You select a group of units by clicking one, holding down the control key, and clicking on additional units. This assigns a movement sequence number to each unit, so if you want an HQ to move last, you have to make sure he is the last selected unit.

The game would then attach a waypoint placement "string" to the first unit selected. You click on the map to set the waypoint, then the game attaches a waypoint placement string to the second unit selected. This repeats until each unit has a waypoint, then starts at the beginning again. At any time you can finish the order by clicking the right mouse button.

In the action phase, the first selected unit advances to his first waypoint, covered all the time by the rest of the platoon. The second then moves to his waypoint, etc.

It does sound a bit complicated, but given a bit of thought I'm sure it would be possible. I can see it now, whole formations moving forward like clockwork!

[Tero]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In other words, you lose the squad leader's bonuses.

How do platoon leader bonuses work in the new game engine ?

Also, now the split off team is likely to be easily left out of C&C.

Will there be mission based orders (like recon that wood yonder, defend this bridge or take out that bunker) ? These would make out-of-CC split units act according to a plan.

No, you can not change the composition of your squads on the fly. I doubt this happened much in real life since you'd have to also spend time swapping around ammo and equipment.

I would imagine you would swap men more than equipment (specialists) and IMO ammo redistribution was done on a regular basis so that would not be a problem.

Not something you can do quickly and CMx2's scenario timeframe is still set for roughly the same as CMx1.

A conditional team split does not take more than a minute, tops. Given the fact the unit commander already knows who are his specialists and how he wants to split his units to perform the task at hand.

All units have Leaders. Bonuses are now Leader Based.

What is the propability the leader is lost and how will that affect the unit ?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Group plotting isn't something we are likely to get into the game right away. We're going to try, but there are a ton of practical considerations we're going to have to sort through.

Steve

OK thanks

BUT can you still "band box" or group select a bunch of units and send them ALL in one direction to like CMx1?

That is a VERY handy feature for the lazier amongst us !

-tom w

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Group plotting isn't something we are likely to get into the game right away. We're going to try, but there are a ton of practical considerations we're going to have to sort through.

What about formations (at least for the AI)?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Steiner14]

Steve,

thanks for all the information.

I'm totally overwhelmed.

And sceptical: what you describe sounds simply too good to be true!

What we heard so far, would be the best computer game ever. Do you know that?!

Are there BTS shares to buy?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

No, you can not change the composition of your squads on the fly. I doubt this happened much in real life since you'd have to also spend time swapping around ammo and equipment. Not something you can do quickly and CMx2's scenario timeframe is still set for roughly the same as CMx1.

The ONLY time you would split a squad normally would be when coming under fire. So the design decision here is correct. You did drills, drills, drills - the CW called it "Battle Drill" - so that when coming under fire, you split into two (or whatever) teams automatically. It was not the time to redistribute weapons and ammo "on the fly" - it was done instinctually. Glad to see it will be that way in the game.

[Brent Pollock]

All together now:

Halllllllllllllll-e-lu-ja!

It always bugged me that SL/ASL actually functioned more as PL/APL. Only the single man games (e.g. Up Front, Firepower, Soldiers) had Squad Leaders.

Now it looks like we'll have platoon, squad (and assistant squad?), team & crew leaders...oh baby, it's gonna be GREAT!

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[snip]

All units have Leaders. Bonuses are now Leader Based.

[Battlefront.com]

As CMx2 will allow a squad to advance by leapfrog, causing constituent teams to cover each other's movement, why not have a similar order for groups of units such as a platoon.

The difference has to do with distance. The distance between the two Teams won't ever be that much, therefore we don't have to extrapolate relative positions, intervening terrain, how to handle larger units made up of mixed types, etc. Big difference. Wish it were easy to do, because it would be a big bonus to have.

How do platoon leader bonuses work in the new game engine ?

Trickle down effect when in C&C. However, the main bonus of being in C&C is the functionality that is gained. Specifically spotting info (and in some cases) the ability to call in support weapons like air and artillery.

Will there be mission based orders (like recon that wood yonder, defend this bridge or take out that bunker) ? These would make out-of-CC split units act according to a plan.

No, that is a pretty huge thing and we can't touch that with a 10 foot pole right now. Too many other more basic things to do.

I would imagine you would swap men more than equipment (specialists) and IMO ammo redistribution was done on a regular basis so that would not be a problem.

If you are rigged up to carry rifle ammo you have rifle pouches attached to your belt. To get some more rifle ammo someone just has to hand it to you. That works fine. But to switch weapons completely you need to switch your ammo pouches. I have enough combat gear, modern and WWII era, to know that this is not an easy process. Certainly not in a minute as you suggest. Whenever I read about switching around weapons it is CLEARLY done ahead of something deliberate, like a recon patrol or an assault on a known enemy position. It isn't done on a whim.

What is the propability the leader is lost and how will that affect the unit ?

1:1 Representation... you figure out what his chances are Losing a Leader affects the performance of the unit he commanded. He will be replaced, but it can take time depending on circumstances.

BUT can you still "band box" or group select a bunch of units and send them ALL in one direction to like CMx1?

I hope so. We put it into CMx1 for a reason

And sceptical: what you describe sounds simply too good to be true!

We're used to it. We heard this for more than a year from people. When we put out the CMBO Beta Demo most people tossed their skepticism out the window, though some thought we wouldn't be able to finish it. The release of CMBO silenced them too

Steve

[Gpig]

One of the interesting things about how the new CMx2 might play for us all, is that we may feel more crowded. With just 2 companies on a map, it will look VERY different than CMx1. (I think.)

Look at this . . .

This is just ONE American Infantry Company, 1:1 represented. (I think I made a mistake somewhere in the HvyWpns plt . . .)

But there is a HUGE ammount of dudes out there. Even though there are only 24 or so "teams" to give orders to, it will "seem" like a LOT more units on the map. And I LIKE!

I also feel it will lead to players spacing out their attacks and defensive positioning. Maybe even slowing down the Assault, so less men are in the open at any one time. Can you imagine this many men charging into a defense line? (Not that they'd all go at the same time.)

I suppose TACTICS will not change, but the "feeling" might be different. Maybe leading to more realistic use of units . . . ?

What do you think?

Gpig

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Really brings home the change 1:1 brings, thanks Gpig. Yeah I do believe we'll see tactics change to some extend as a result of it. A squad looks so much more powerful now. And seeing so many men close together will cause you to spread out more. An artillery strike close by won't just be a numbers game anymore.

It strengthens my worry that you might get 'squad clutter' as squads start overlapping and stuff. Would really like to hear about this.

[Pvt. Ryan]

That's freakin' awesome.

[Boris Balaban]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I have.

It was fun for you only had about 12 men aside and you had several scenarios like clear the area; meeting engagement, get to the other side and may be more (CMx2 can add more scenarios). Some times you would have a tank or a HT.

Maybe CMx2 can adapt this size of game?

[ September 01, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Boris Balaban ]

[Battlefront.com]

Another classic from Gpig. I see vacation time has left you rested enough to draw all those little dudes!

I think Gpig's drawing helps show why people might not mind having less troops under their command than the mega battles people managed to eek out of CMx1. A battalion might get people feeling a little clausterphobic!

Steve

[Boris Balaban]

Getting more ammo?

Can your squad walk up to a dead squad and pick up some ammo of the same type? Will there be a way for the computer to keep track of what was left of the dead squad and only give a % :confused: of it to the squad searching for more ammo?

I will guess the answer will be NO.

[Boris Balaban]

Will there be a way of moving a weapon left with 1 man?

Can a vehical pick them up and move them?

If so will the vehicle be able to drop them off?