Why not...

[luderbamsen]

I'm with Steve on the scenarios: Eastern Front is just more interesting, not the least because you can make fairly realistic scenarios with a close to 1:1 division of forces, rather than the "5 Shermans vs. 1 Tiger" of the ETO.

Besides, I'm a weapons whore. I like late-war scenarios because they offer the biggest and coolest weapons. Most CMBB scenarios I played were 44-45 and rarely earlier than Zitadelle (Summer 43).

Regardless, I still want my E-100, thank you

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Originally posted by rune:

Too bad that isn't true. CMBO outsold it.

Rune

It seems to me that Sales and Popularity are two very different things... Once CMBO had a good buzz going alot of people bought it on the stength of the buzz but then played it very little, if at all... CMBB didn't sell as many because all those people that found out that CMBO wasn't for them didn't move forward to CMBB... Therefore, I am of the opinion that CMBB was the more Popular even though CMBO had more Sales...

[ April 07, 2008, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: BigAlMoho ]

[Sirocco]

Normandy, 29th ID from Omaha to St.Lo, Canadian 3rd ID Juno to Carpiquet, British 3rd ID from Sword to Caen. German opponents would include 3rd(?) FJ Div, 12th SS HJ Div and 21st PD Div. Market Garden and the Bulge would also provide excellent material for modules. If the plan is to do one Western Front game with modules, then an Eastern Front game with modules.

[rune]

Sorry BigAl, you logic is faulty. Even if a high percentage didn't move on or play CMBO, it still outsold CMBB that CMBO would be more popular.

Rune

[Splinty]

Originally posted by LongLeftFlank:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

I think after Normandy there are some obvious "Western" modules before going "East".

If the launch Normandy game is just US v German and named after one of the US beaches ( although covering a wider area than just the beach) or Patton's breakout from Normandy, CM:OC, Operation Cobra.

The obvious follow on would be the allies, with British, Free French and Canadians in the push to Le Havre.

After that the obvious add on's are the big operations, Market Garden, Husky, Shingle and Wacht am Rhein.

Peter.

My own recommendation:

1. US (non-Airborne) vs. Wehrmacht. D+1 to breakout. Focus: Get the basic engine right for WWII using a strictly limited TO+E and terrain set. Countryside/ hedgerows, villes and small streams. Modders can cover Italy/Sicily using CMSF arid terrain sets while we await the next module.

* (just my opinion, but DON'T include the beaches themselves. It's a VERY unusual terrain set and getting it right would divert BFC resources from more important fundamentals like on-map mortars).

2. Brits/Canucks/Free French/Poles and SS. Caen to Paris. Add urban/industrial terrain sets and cement fortifications. Fill out details on arty/air support and weather (rainstorms).

3. Allied airborne troops, FJ and partisans. Big rivers and at last! the beaches. Bridges and boats/LCVPs/DUKWs/Buffaloes for Market Garden, Metz, Antwerp, etc. Add some of the "Funnies" (Crocodiles, Crabs, Calliopes, AVRE, etc.)

4. Bulge to Berchtesgaden. Build out the unit sets post 9/44: Hetzers, Konigstigers, Volksgrenadiers, Pershings. Tall dark pine forests and snow. Hurtgenwald, Vosges, etc.

Just one man's opinion. </font>

[Omenowl]

I admit I bought CMBO, but didn't buy CMBB. I actually bought 3 copies of CMBO (one for my father, 1 full price for myself and another copy for 5 dollars for myself).

It is unfair, but the demo was just not as much fun as that with CMBO. Graphics were a bit more displeasing so just didn't muster up enough focus to buy CMAK or CMBB. CMAK I played the hell out of the demo, and should have bought, but was hoping the price would drop a bit. Then I found out CMSF was coming out and didn't buy it at all. It is quite unfair, but I do prefer modern combat over WW2.

[76mm]

Originally posted by M1A1TC:

How many CMBB games did you sell in Russian speaking countries? More then CMBO?

Would love to know this as well, but given the rampant piracy over there, I doubt they sold many legitimate copies at all. Would be pleasantly surprised to learn otherwise.

[M1A1TC]

Yeah, unfortunatly my former countrymen like to "get stuff for free". Its about as bad as China

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, according to the numbers we didn't sell much in Russia at all because at the time piracy was the norm. It's much better now, however the price point is much lower than other places so it's not an apples to apples comparison. Now, Finland... that's another story. I think 1 in 3 CMBB players was Finnish (OK, maybe that's stretching it a bit!).

CMBO was more popular than CMBB simply because popularity is measured by how many people are willing to plunk down money to purchase the product. Now, longevity is a different story. It might be that CMBB has a longer active playing life because of its huge scope. However, that's not important to us because people playing a $45 game for 6 years vs. people playing a $45 game for 8 years doesn't matter to us. We got the same amount of money for each sale and any game that is played beyond a couple of months is exceptional in the games industry.

Remember guys... I personally think the Eastern Front is the more interesting theater to simulate. If we didn't care about pleasing people or income I'd be pushing to go to the Eastern Front before Normandy. However, popularity and sales make the difference between us making games and us flipping burgers instead. We can't ignore this

PTO is not on the horizon. It's a tough sell for people. Yup... Americans galore, but very little armor and an enemy force that most people think of as a static suicide force with antiquated weapons. Look at the crap we've taken for having the Syrians be the opposition force, then think about all the cool tanks and weaponry they have, and I think you might understand why we're not planning on simulating the PTO anytime in the near future. That's not to say we'll never do it, but it isn't anything we've made a development slot for.

Steve

[M1A1TC]

Yeah, thats too bad that East Front will have to wait, but atleast by then everything should be smooth sailing with the engine I hope

[SlapHappy]

I'm an American, and I'd love to see France '40 first.

However, I have to qualify that by saying that operation would only be really intriguing if there was a strategic map level to back it up.

But since we are talking about Normandy as a done deal, my question is: What kind of scale are we talking about here? Are we going to see something that generically covers the whole campaign? Or are we talking about a much more specific slice of action from that arena? Much of the thinking you've been indicating, Steve, seems to indicate the latter......

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, as I've been saying for a few years now we will never, ever, in a billion years make another single game with the same scope as any of the CMx1 games. So the first of the WW2 games (the "Title" release) will be limited to US vs. German forces in the Normandy area. Additions to the game ("Modules") will expand upon the original forces.

Current planned 1st Module will focus on Commonwealth forces, though with a healthy dose of additional German forces and a smattering of more US stuff. Modules after that will expand the forces further to include most of everything that happened during the Summer and Fall of 1944. We will not be making the Bulge a "Module" because it requires an effort equal to the initial Normandy Title because of the weather, terrain, and unit changes that makeup that campaign (and later into the Spring).

Some may find this news to them, but it's nothing that couldn't be found on this Forum somewhere from some prior post of mine.

Steve

[-E]

I for one, am happy that you're starting in the West in order to perfect the system a bit before turning east. To the real game.

[luderbamsen]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yes, as I've been saying for a few years now we will never, ever, in a billion years make another single game with the same scope as any of the CMx1 games. So the first of the WW2 games (the "Title" release) will be limited to US vs. German forces in the Normandy area. Additions to the game ("Modules") will expand upon the original forces.

Current planned 1st Module will focus on Commonwealth forces, though with a healthy dose of additional German forces and a smattering of more US stuff. Modules after that will expand the forces further to include most of everything that happened during the Summer and Fall of 1944. We will not be making the Bulge a "Module" because it requires an effort equal to the initial Normandy Title because of the weather, terrain, and unit changes that makeup that campaign (and later into the Spring).

Some may find this news to them, but it's nothing that couldn't be found on this Forum somewhere from some prior post of mine.

Steve

Thanks for the info. Now, about that E-100...

[Thomm]

Originally posted by luderbamsen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yes, as I've been saying for a few years now we will never, ever, in a billion years make another single game with the same scope as any of the CMx1 games. So the first of the WW2 games (the "Title" release) will be limited to US vs. German forces in the Normandy area. Additions to the game ("Modules") will expand upon the original forces.

Current planned 1st Module will focus on Commonwealth forces, though with a healthy dose of additional German forces and a smattering of more US stuff. Modules after that will expand the forces further to include most of everything that happened during the Summer and Fall of 1944. We will not be making the Bulge a "Module" because it requires an effort equal to the initial Normandy Title because of the weather, terrain, and unit changes that makeup that campaign (and later into the Spring).

Some may find this news to them, but it's nothing that couldn't be found on this Forum somewhere from some prior post of mine.

Steve

Thanks for the info. Now, about that E-100... </font>

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Regarding the PTO possibility, maybe the climate for it will be better after Spielberg and Hanks get "The Pacific" out for HBO's intended Pacific Theater "Band of Brothers." With any luck at all, that should raise the awareness and the public profile of the fighting there.

Regards,

John Kettler

[patboy]

Hi Steve,

Have you started to design CMx2 WW2? if yes,

I would like see some nice Normandy building screenshots it's time now!

:)Pat

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

So the first of the WW2 games (the "Title" release) will be limited to US vs. German forces in the Normandy area.

With such a limited scope this time a good campaign, with some real detail to it, and fully featured QB are essential.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Steve,

Regarding the PTO possibility, maybe the climate for it will be better after Spielberg and Hanks get "The Pacific" out for HBO's intended Pacific Theater "Band of Brothers." With any luck at all, that should raise the awareness and the public profile of the fighting there.

Regards,

John Kettler

Well I’m pretty aware of it (have a relative in permanent residence along the Kokoda Track) and it doesn’t interest me at all.

Especially if its US centric and its all about Marines charging ashore, with no reference to the Brits in Burma or say the Chindits or us at Kokoda, or Buna or Milne Bay.

[ April 09, 2008, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Originally posted by rune:

Sorry BigAl, you logic is faulty. Even if a high percentage didn't move on or play CMBO, it still outsold CMBB that CMBO would be more popular.

Rune

I stand by what I said...

Go back and read it again and if you still don't get it then it seems that you are just quoting the company line...

You can tell me that CMSF sold more than CMBO but it is abundantly clear to me that CM1 was and remains the more Popular... If I spend money on a stinker, I assure you it will not be popular with me...

[ April 08, 2008, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: BigAlMoho ]

[rune]

BigAl,

Do you even know what you are saying? You talk about CMBO and it being less popular then CMBB. I quote:

"It seems to me that Sales and Popularity are two very different things... Once CMBO had a good buzz going alot of people bought it on the stength of the buzz but then played it very little, if at all... CMBB didn't sell as many because all those people that found out that CMBO wasn't for them didn't move forward to CMBB... Therefore, I am of the opinion that CMBB was the more Popular even though CMBO had more Sales..."

Now out of no where you are comparing it to CMSF and I am quoting the company line. Wrong. We were talking about CMBO and CMBB. how can you stand by what you said when you are changing it?

Ignoring the sudden jump in topic, CMBO the first game was more popular then CMBB the Eastern Front. I stand by what I said, and Steve in a post above backs me on it. I do understand the point you were trying to make, but you have no idea of any of the numbers or how often each is being played. You ignore the fact that CMBO was new and exciting, and a lot of people didn't go to CMBB because it was the same thing but in a different area. If a full third that bought CMBO hated it {exaggerated}and never played it, it was STILL more popular then CMBB.

Rune

[ April 08, 2008, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

[M1A1TC]

I can still remember the amazement that the CMBO demo was!! Thanks BFC!

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Originally posted by rune:

BigAl,

Do you even know what you are saying? You talk about CMBO and it being less popular then CMBB. I quote:

"It seems to me that Sales and Popularity are two very different things... Once CMBO had a good buzz going alot of people bought it on the stength of the buzz but then played it very little, if at all... CMBB didn't sell as many because all those people that found out that CMBO wasn't for them didn't move forward to CMBB... Therefore, I am of the opinion that CMBB was the more Popular even though CMBO had more Sales..."

Now out of no where you are comparing it to CMSF and I am quoting the company line. Wrong. We were talking about CMBO and CMBB. how can you stand by what you said when you are changing it?

Ignoring the sudden jump in topic, CMBO the first game was more popular then CMBB the Eastern Front. I stand by what I said, and Steve in a post above backs me on it.

Rune

I am sorry, but we were not talking about CMBO and CMBB... We are discussing the difference between Sales and Popularity...

I didn't change anything by adding more examples that show the difference between Sales and Popularity...

[rune]

BigAl,

Apology if that came off with an attitude, none was meant but when I reread it, I can see someone could read that into it. Just didn't want to change what I wrote to be fair.

However M1's point brings my point home. The demo of CMBO was so new and different, people played it to death waiting for the game. A Good number said they would NOT buy CMBB because of no Americans, and why play it if both sides are evil? LOL, I remember the lenghty debates on the forum about it.

Sales AND popularity go to CMBO. lenght of play CMBB hands down.

Rune

[rune]

I think part of the problem is the definition of the term popular. What is popular right now will not match what is popular in 3 years. I am baseing my popularity quote on what will see more in the course of a year after release, which is all BFC should be worried about. face it people, if they don't make money, they won't be around, and playing a game 6 years from now may make it more popular in 6 years, but does nothing to the pocketbook.

So, BigAl and I are both correct in the context of what we speak. I am just more worried about getting new games and modules in the future. Which is how this conversation started what would sell more out of the box, France 1940 or Normandy, I think that has been put to rest.

Rune