Mounted Infantry & Horses

[J Ruddy]

This is in my wish list - I thought I'd expand a bit more with a new thread.

Are we going to have the ability to have mounted infantry at some point? Mounted infantry differ from traditional Cavalry in that they travel by horse, then dismount to fight.

The Germans used Mounted Infantry in WWII (In 1945 they had 6 Cavalry Divisions) and most major powers made use Mounted Infantry prior to WWI.

The technical challenges include a need for there to be a mounted and dismounted model, as well as some Horse AI that dictates how the horses react to combat conditions while mounted or unmounted. I'm not sure how the Germans handled it in WWII, but typically in pre 1914, one person would need to stay with the horses as the rest advanced to their firing position on foot.

If this is possible, I'd also like to see pack horses represented. The Germans maintained something like a million horses throughout the war and around 80% of the German combat divisions relied on horses for their supply trains.

This could facilitate some interesting scenarios, such as ambushes and commando raids on supply lines.

[Philippe]

Horses are pretty skittish. Since CMx2 is going to do 1:1 modeling, imagine what you'll have to model if an artillery barrage falls on the spot the horses are tethered. Lots of screaming hysterical horses running around at random all over the map, breaking their legs in every pothole. This would get Steve a visit from PETA for sure...

I think my mobile field kitchens were probably pulled around by horses.

[David Chapuis]

Of course they are including mounted inf. The first release title is Gettysburg.

[J Ruddy]

I thought the first release was Rourke's Drift?

I hope they model the good bone china for the tea set.

[YankeeDog]

It's pretty clear that they want to make the engine capable of doing horses.

But, assuming the initial release is still WWII, they're not high on my priority list. Would they be nice to have? Sure. But there's a whole slew of stuff that's not yet in CM and is more important to me in a WWII tactical combat game than horses. Most uses of horses were outside of CM's size/time scale (which sounds like it is staying pretty much the same for CMX2), and CM isn't really designed to simulate commando raids and the like.

Ost Front and/or Early War would make them more important. Still hardly critical, but more important.

[Mord]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

I thought the first release was Rourke's Drift?

I hope they model the good bone china for the tea set.

I'd buy it. I am praying someone somewhere will do a 3D Zulu war game. And I'd be delighted if Battlefront took it on. Man that would kickass!

Mord.

[Philippe]

By the way, I think mounted infantry may still exist. A few years ago I looked at a small import financing by the Chilean government: they were buying saddles from a small private saddle manufacturer in Germany and wanted another set of saddles (probably to give them another unit to patrol the Andean border with Argentina).

Horses can go places and do things that motor vehicles can't. They can climb narrow mountain trails in single file, they don't need petrol, and they can reproduce.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

It's pretty clear that they want to make the engine capable of doing horses.

But, assuming the initial release is still WWII, they're not high on my priority list. Would they be nice to have? Sure. But there's a whole slew of stuff that's not yet in CM and is more important to me in a WWII tactical combat game than horses. Most uses of horses were outside of CM's size/time scale (which sounds like it is staying pretty much the same for CMX2), and CM isn't really designed to simulate commando raids and the like.

Ost Front and/or Early War would make them more important. Still hardly critical, but more important.

Oh I know they want horses, I'm just hoping that doesn't just mean traditional Cavalry and horse artillery.

I build scenario's for my gaming group and I've often throught to myself, if this is a breakthrough situation, where are all the logistics units that I should be mopping up? If 80% of the combat logistics was horse drawn, where are the horses? It's not a huge problem - just something a long time gamer like myself would really like to see implemented some time in the next 20 years.

[YankeeDog]

I'm sure they'll do mounted infantry when they get to doing horses. Mounted Infantry would be critical to anything in the 2nd half of the 19th century, at the very least, and still had very important roles in some early 20th century stuff (Russian Civil War is the first thing that springs to mind). And as long as you're doing horse artillery, you might as well do pack trains -- from a modeling standpoint, they're basically the same thing, the pack trains just don't have the ability to unlimber a gun and shoot.

And yes, there are a few examples of horse infantry in militaries today. There are some environments machines still haven't conquered. . .

[General Bolt]

Panzer Blitz had horses. CMX2 should have horses too. PB scenario 1 IIRC was a 1944 battle.

[YankeeDog]

Yes, and Panzer Blitz is the ultimate in realistic WWII tactical combat simulators.

Edit: I'm not trying to dig a Panzer Blitz at all, but arguing that one game should have some unit/feature/whatever just because another one does, is like arguing that you should like mustard on pizza, simply because you like it on hot dogs. . .

[ September 01, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[Philippe]

While I like the mustard analogy, you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that because many of us were exposed to it at an impressionably young age, Panzerblitz informs our conception of what should and shouldn't happen on the Eastern Front. For many of us it coincided with our first exposure to German and Russian TO&E's, and has probably resulted in many fantasies about division-sized engagements.

[Ardem]

All I need to add here is the Cossacks on the russian front, charging across the open frozen plains.

Russians used the cossacks in many engagements in the winter of 1942, in wait for it cavalry charges. Scared the germans to heck. IIRC in General Raus book, at one point he said the whole plain was full of horses charging across the snow.

Or there is poland I guess they used Cavalry charges against tanks and we know how that ended up.

[Battlefront.com]

Horses will eventually make their presence felt in CMx2, but not for a while. The technical capability to add these will be there, but the effort will still be substatial. Just think of the modeling that we'd need to do for it to look, act, and "feel" right at a low level tactical CM environment. Actually... I don't want to think about it so forget I mentioned it

I can tell you for sure, with absolute certainty, that we will not add horses into CM until we do a 19th century sim. It just isn't worth the effort for us to cater to such a tiny aspect of 20th Century warfare. Important to a narrow slice of WWII combat, for sure, but not enough to open up a big 'ol can of horsewhoopass on ourselves for such a needle in a haystack feature (like the barn theme analogy? I'm on a roll!).

Now, say we did American Civil War and then did Eastern Front. Horses could be added to the Eastern Front provided they fit into the specific chosen setting.

Steve

[Andreas]

Steve said! CMx2 is going to be a Greek-Persian Phalanx simulation!

[J Ruddy]

I thought it was going to be the War of the Roses? I hope it is, because I'm really Stoked about it...

[Gromit]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Steve said! CMx2 is going to be a Greek-Persian Phalanx simulation!

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

I thought it was going to be the War of the Roses? I hope it is, because I'm really Stoked about it...

You two are lucky that Steve doesn't have access to a disintegrator pistol right about now...

[J Ruddy]

What happened to Steve's disintegrator pistol?

[Gromit]

It disintegrated!!!

If I recall correctly, he was forced to use it on the unruly "Peng" crowd around here, and alas, like that wonderful Wand of Fireballs we all coveted in D&D, the charges ran out on Steve.

Guess those Peng bastards are tough little buggers!

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I can tell you for sure, with absolute certainty, that we will not add horses into CM until we do a 19th century sim....

...Now, say we did American Civil War...

Steve

I personally would love a ACW game. Over the past year, I have been re-reading Bruce Catton's trilogy on the Army of the Potomac: "mr. Lincoln's Army","Glory Road", and now, I'm halfway through "Road to Appomattox". So you have my vote.

[Philippe]

ACW is for wimps. I want the defense of Shanghai by Chinese Gordon and the American-financed Ever Victorious Army during the Taiping rebellion. Think of the modding opportunities, the eunuchs, and the hordes of concubines (most of whom have bound feet).

And a more modern follow-up module could be the defense of the Peking legation against the Harmonious Fists.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Gromit:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Steve said! CMx2 is going to be a Greek-Persian Phalanx simulation!

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

I thought it was going to be the War of the Roses? I hope it is, because I'm really Stoked about it...

You two are lucky that Steve doesn't have access to a disintegrator pistol right about now... </font>

[Scipio]

Yeah, "CM2:Leather goddesses of Phobos" wouldn't make sense without desintegrator pistols and ray guns, would it?

[ September 02, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Andreas]

I liiiiike it!

[Zalgiris 1410]

It would have been nice to have had horse drawn pack trains and field kitches and such for those break through senarios, arrh.