Weapons review from Iraq veteran

[akd]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Ugh. Call me a bleeding heart liberal, and Cipher, no disrespect, it is obviously just a casual slang word the way you use it - but haji?

My wife's family are muslim, my parents-in-law are haji. It is a term of respect - akin to "sir" or "doctor" and it just sticks in the throat a bit that that is what you guys have nick-named the jihadi/ insurgent mob.

I know. I think the use of the term "Haji" will be one of the greatest ironies that comes out of this war. I learned a new word a few days ago that I wish was in vogue. "Mufsidoon." Apparently it translates loosely to "evildoers" (GW would be proud) and is the appropiate word in Arabic to use for someone who kills unjustly, e.g. a terrorist.

Mufsi. I like it.

has even been a female merc sniper from North Korea attacking our forces in the area

war, and rumors of war.

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

Just a passing note on the AK-47.

In actual fact almost all of the AK-47's people see today are actually AKM's. The main difference was a switch from a machined block in the original AK-47 in the 70's to one with a set of rails and a use of metal stampings which cut as I remember about half a kilo from the weapons weight, and also made it quicker and a fair bit cheaper to manufacture.

They haven't made AK-47's for about a quarter century, but the name just stuck. As far as I know most of the chinese and eastern block types available, are copis of AKM's too, not 47's.

Just to complicate things further, the AKMS is an AKM with a folding but so I suspect the plural of that would be AKMS's.

Peter.

The name is appropiate and "stuck" rightly. AKM is an AK-47. AK-47 is not an AKM. Similarly, M16A1, M16A2, M16A3 and M16A4 are all M16s to us.

And apparently the Serbs continue to manufacture their own version of the AK-47 with a milled received, so the original spirit of the AK-47 lives on.

[ December 08, 2005, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: akd ]

[Dead Horse]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Ugh. Call me a bleeding heart liberal, and Cipher, no disrespect,

I'll inject some disrespect then.

In forums frequented largely by actual serving military members, the term 'Walt' has come into play. Generally they look like the gentleman in the foreground:

Walt is short for "Walter Mitty", but he also answers to 'wannabe'. You can find him on Airsoft bulletin boards, or message boards like this:

Link

Pretending to be something he's not. You can generally tell he's not really a serving soldier by his use of all the correct slang, with just a titch too much "gung ho" thrown in for verisimilitude.

I don't have a hard time believing someone could blow off another human being's arm with a .50 and then go on the internet and laugh about it, but such a thing would have to be pretty rare indeed.

If Cipher is the real deal, well, my apologies, but you don't need to go on as if you're John Wayne. Certainly we don't need the offensive racial epithets here. It's mostly a civilian crowd.

The real combat veterans that have posted here in the past - Forever Babra, Desdichado, Nidan1 - have been pretty reserved about their experiences which is what one expects of a combat veteran. That's something most Walts don't get.

Again, apologies to Cipher if he is the real deal, but of course all we have to judge anyone on here is what they say and how they say it. Knowing all the right slang doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Rant off.

[Peter Cairns]

akd,

double checked with JJANES Infantry Weapons, and I stand corrected, The First AK-47's were in 1957 and the AKM, which they discribe as a "modernised AK-47" was actually as early as 1959.

However I've always draw a distinction as I would between an say an M-16 and a CAR-15, because there is a significant difference.

In the case of the US weapons it is length, with the AK's it's weight, the original AK-47 came in at 4.6Kg (10lb) the AKM at only 3.15kg (7lb), which for me is enough to make the distinction.

Peter.

[Colin]

Originally posted by Dead Horse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Ugh. Call me a bleeding heart liberal, and Cipher, no disrespect,

I'll inject some disrespect then.

In forums frequented largely by actual serving military members, the term 'Walt' has come into play. Generally they look like the gentleman in the foreground:

PICTURE OF FAT GUY IN UNIFORM

Walt is short for "Walter Mitty", but he also answers to 'wannabe'. You can find him on Airsoft bulletin boards, or message boards like this:

Link

Pretending to be something he's not. You can generally tell he's not really a serving soldier by his use of all the correct slang, with just a titch too much "gung ho" thrown in for verisimilitude.

I don't have a hard time believing someone could blow off another human being's arm with a .50 and then go on the internet and laugh about it, but such a thing would have to be pretty rare indeed.

If Cipher is the real deal, well, my apologies, but you don't need to go on as if you're John Wayne. Certainly we don't need the offensive racial epithets here. It's mostly a civilian crowd.

The real combat veterans that have posted here in the past - Forever Babra, Desdichado, Nidan1 - have been pretty reserved about their experiences which is what one expects of a combat veteran. That's something most Walts don't get.

Again, apologies to Cipher if he is the real deal, but of course all we have to judge anyone on here is what they say and how they say it. Knowing all the right slang doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Rant off. </font>

[Dead Horse]

Originally posted by Colin:

Just to clarify, are you suggesting Cipher is not a soldier, merely a wannabe?

Are you suggesting this because he uses an offensive term for Iraqi combatants?

Out of line if you have any respect what so ever. Cipher has said nothing but constructive things except for using a potentially offensive colloquialism that seems very authentic.

Funny picture. Has no place in here though.

Thanks for coming out, I'm done with this thread.

You asked for clarification and then fled...

To answer the question, and provide you clarification, I am suggesting that the use of "authentic colloquialism" is often employed by Walts and is often effective. This entire thread is about wanna be who used effective language with one or two errors (see the very first post).

Most combat veterans I know - especially ones who have taken lives - generally don't trumpet their own achievements. Not in person. I suppose the Internet could make some a little more brazen, but those that have walked the walk generally don't have to prove anything to anyone. So yeah, the use of language seems a little "too pat", but I may be overly sensitive since that was what started this thread to begin with.

I may be unconstructive in these criticisms, but I detest poseurs, and detest even more discussing the taking of human life like it was a video game. A professional interest in the use of weapons and their effects is one thing; bragging about killing ragheads in order to built up "cred" where none is really needed is another.

Anyway, I didn't think twice about my comments here as the original topic has exhausted itself and has split off into a dozen other little conversations - which should probably be started in seperate threads anyway given the magic number 200 has been reached.

[Hodgee]

Hodgee say Hello! ...and conquer me with kisses!

And it is against my religion to be eaten by reptiles!

[Bigduke6]

Hi Mom!

[Nidan1]

Look who's back!!!! :eek:

[ December 08, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei... I'm assuming you were joking. Kindly refrain from joking in a way that makes me have to assume. In other words, don't disregard the Forum rules.

As for who is, or isn't, a real soldier. It is always tough to say because proof isn't really something that the Internet is very good at. For example, Lewis (aka Username, and 50 others) is likely a real soldier. He is also a horse's ass for sure. Soldiers don't fit only one profile.

Fun true story... last summer I challenged someone on the facts surrounding WMDs. The person in question was claiming, in mid 2005!!, that there really were WMD and it was just the Liberals who said there wasn't and they were covering up all the evidence soldiers found. I said that wasn't so and listed links to all the official reports concluding there were no WMD when the war started and aren't any there now. I also included comments that I heard from a LTC battalion commander from the 101st Airborne who took Najaf who said the same thing (and he is absolutely way right of center). So a USMC 1SGT, just back from Iraq (and now redeployed yet again), came to the defense of the paranoid rightwing unhinged nutjob and started in on me like you wouldn't believe. I don't know how a pro gun, pro state's rights, anti-big government, pro-military guy can be a Communist, but apparently it's possible according to him. So anyway, I posted a quote from President Bush which showed that either he also now belives there to be no WMD or is part of the "Great Liberal Conspiracy". Like my previous reply, it was 100% factual and lacked any political commentary at all. For posting the quote from GW, complete with a link to the White House's website where I got it from, got a response from the SGT. In short, he literally (and I mean LITERALLY) called me a traitor and said that I don't deserve to be an American. Er... for quoting the President? It's real comforting that this guy is supposedly defending the ideals of America when he so clearly doesn't believe in them.

Lesson... even brave, effective soldiers can be big mouthed A-holes. Some even blow up federal buildings and snipe kids from towers. So don't use a very narrow definition of what a soldier "should be" as the yardstick for ID'ing who is or isn't a soldier. It just doesn't work.

BTW, I don't have a problem with Cipher's post. I'd rather a soldier (and I do assume he is) feel free to talk openly in the context of a discussion about combat than to feel like he has to be mindful of the PC Police. That being said, all members must abide by the Forum rules, soldier or otherwise, so I would hope that Cipher (and others) take that into consideration.

Now I'm off to ban Lewis again.

Steve

[hellfish]

Some of the biggest assholes I've known were soldiers. My drill sergeants, for example.

However, I have known other vets talk about their experiences. One kid, a marine sniper I met through work (who, incidentally, was killed in that mill last week) wrote emails talking about who he'd shot. Not bragging mind you, but he also wasn't exactly being the strong silent type. It was almost clinical the way he talked about it.

[Battlefront.com]

FHF, the attack on the promotion ceremony? Sorry to hear that. Statistically, being a Marine right now isn't a very safe occupation. % of casualties compared to other branches is quite a bit worse.

Another example known to people here is the soldier who posted quite a lot of pictures of dead insurgents recently. More of a "wow, look what a .50 cal does to a head" sort of thing rather than "super cool! I'm killing people!" it would appear, but still doesn't fall into the category of quiet type.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Colin,

The information I provided on the AK-74 cartridge was as of the late 1980s. Back then, I saw no coverage whatsoever of an AP version of the cartridge. The part which upsets and makes the bullet unstable was lead in every report I saw. Sounds like the Russians went to something resembling an SS-109 approach (steel insert to defeat body armor), but apparently without any change in barrel twist. BTW, I just checked David Isby's WEAPONS & TACTICS OF THE SOVIET ARMY: Fully Revised Edition, 1988, and it doesn't list any AP cartridge for the AK-74 family.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wisbech_lad]

Arrrgh, sorry I set all this off.

To clarify - I know that derogatary slang is part and parcel of life, and am not particularly PC. But, as AKD also points out, choosing "haji" is... unfortunate. I wasn't calling Cipher out on it - just my opinion that it is unfortunate. Epithets that may seem worse on the surface would (IMHO) be better.

Replies to other points would count as political

[Battlefront.com]

Wisbech, it is a touchy subject so no problem. Unfortunately, slang evolves on its own and it is what it is. Hard to change it once it has got to that point. As Rumsfeld... he's trying to get people to stop calling the opposition "Insurgents". Good luck with that

Steve

[Bigduke6]

...I don't know how a pro gun, pro state's rights, anti-big government, pro-military guy can be a Communist, but apparently it's possible according to him...

Some of my best friends were or even remain Communists. And don't forget, Comunists throw great parties.

rim shot

Which reminds me of an old joke, the difference between America and the Soviet Union, in America you can always find a party. In the Soviet Union, the party always can find you!

BIG rim shot

Seriously, sic tempus fugit. These days, Moscow has got to be the wild party capital of the planet, and in the states they're too PC to have a good time.

Thanks for your attention, now returning viewers to a fascinating grog discussion on which weapons do what to whom in Iraq!

[Colin]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Colin,

The information I provided on the AK-74 cartridge was as of the late 1980s. Back then, I saw no coverage whatsoever of an AP version of the cartridge. The part which upsets and makes the bullet unstable was lead in every report I saw. Sounds like the Russians went to something resembling an SS-109 approach (steel insert to defeat body armor), but apparently without any change in barrel twist. BTW, I just checked David Isby's WEAPONS & TACTICS OF THE SOVIET ARMY: Fully Revised Edition, 1988, and it doesn't list any AP cartridge for the AK-74 family.

Regards,

John Kettler

Maybe it was something that was changed early on and I am incorrect about the two types being used.

Here are some quick links, all my reference stuff is at home and I'm at school.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am05-e.htm

Yes I am aware its the shady world guns site but I have read something along this line, I didn't have any idea of the designations of the rounds and didn't know what else to call them so I used that site.

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html#sov545

http://www.forensico.com/For-List_of_Firearms_A-/AK_74.html

These sites describe the function you mention although the last one says a few things like the 5.45 is better at penetrating Kevlar then the earler 7.62mm round and that is doesn't yaw consistently enough.

Both worth a quick read.

I will try to find another source for the AP bullets but I guess it doesn't matter either way cuz I'm tired and I'm going to sleep.

[Battlefront.com]

BigDuke, all you forgot to do was say "Thank you! I'll be here all week"

You're probably right about the bulk of Russians, and even Rebels, going around with AK-74s vs. AK-47s. The US Government report that mentioned the retention of AK-47s (at least that is where I think I saw it) was focused on the street battles of Grozny. It also said that they were used when possible. For all I know that means only 1 in 100 had one because that was all that was possible.

In any event, it doesn't change anything regarding CM:SF. The standard conventional Syrian forces will be armed with the newer weapons, the conventional and unconventional militias a mix. Special unconventional forces probably only the newer. It's all a guessing game, but I'd say that is a pretty good guess.

Steve

[FAI]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Arrrgh, sorry I set all this off.

To clarify - I know that derogatary slang is part and parcel of life, and am not particularly PC. But, as AKD also points out, choosing "haji" is... unfortunate. I wasn't calling Cipher out on it - just my opinion that it is unfortunate. Epithets that may seem worse on the surface would (IMHO) be better.

Replies to other points would count as political

Don't be sorry. Some people (incuding here) need to be reminded of the concequences of deliberately using a derogatory slang that offends the entire Muslim population. Anyone using that is either ignorant, uninformed or looking for trouble.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by FAI:

Don't be sorry. Some people (incuding here) need to be reminded of the concequences of deliberately using a derogatory slang that offends the entire Muslim population. Anyone using that is either ignorant, uninformed or looking for trouble. [/QB]

It's hard not to blame Hanna-Barbera.

[akd]

Originally posted by Andrew H.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FAI:

Don't be sorry. Some people (incuding here) need to be reminded of the concequences of deliberately using a derogatory slang that offends the entire Muslim population. Anyone using that is either ignorant, uninformed or looking for trouble.

It's hard not to blame Hanna-Barbera. [/QB]</font>