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I wonder what Zarqawi and crew were thinking when they were hiding in their safe house and then they heard the two F-16s as the jets arrived on station. I am sure the final panic would have been priceless!

Oh well, no more home movies of him shooting a SAW heroically in the desert with his white sneakers on.

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Originally posted by LtCol West:

I wonder what Zarqawi and crew were thinking when they were hiding in their safe house and then they heard the two F-16s as the jets arrived on station. I am sure the final panic would have been priceless!

Because its impossible to believe that he might have bravely met his end, right? I'm all for the fact he's gone - nice closure for the families of his many victims - but demonizing for the sake of demonizing is intellectual terrorism IMO. And dangerous; forgetting that your enemies are brave, smart and willing to die for a cause they deeply believe in rarely yields dividends.
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Well, considering so much else he did was cowardly, I don't think West had a bad bit of imagery there (unless you consider sawing off the head of unarmed and bound captives a brave act). From the videos I've seen, even the bravest get pretty panicky in those last seconds of life. And btw, the guy was a demon (mass slaughter of civilians, seeking to stimulate religious war by killing Shiites by the thousands and demolishing prized religious shrines), so I don't think it's too much to demonize him. There's a big difference between attacking invading soldiers (not that I am for that, I am on the US side) and slaughtering civilians wholesale to preserve Sunni supremacy in Iraq.

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Oh, I'm familiar with his record and his cowardly acts of terror. I don't see the need to fantasize about his demise though. I am sure the professional soldiers won't dwell on what he was thinking when he died, just be glad he's dead and move on to the next target. Well done to the US and allied forces who persisted through to a happy ending.

This really belongs in the General Forum, btw, where a discussion is already taking place.

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Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Because its impossible to believe that he might have bravely met his end, right? I'm all for the fact he's gone - nice closure for the families of his many victims - but demonizing for the sake of demonizing is intellectual terrorism IMO. And dangerous; forgetting that your enemies are brave, smart and willing to die for a cause they deeply believe in rarely yields dividends. [/QB]

"Intellectual terrorism" is a bit over the top, Michael, although your subsequent cautionary point is accurate.

But as a brother soldier, you might cut LTCW some slack. He's serving in a force that is actively at war with Zarqawi (who is one of the few enemies to have declared himself, and THAT's the main problem in this war). It is an ancient (e.g. Iliad), normal and psychologically needful custom to demean and dehumanize one's enemy, and to rejoice in his death. That doesn't necessarily mean one takes him for granted (although it might mean that, as you say).

Zarqawi was no Yamamoto. As for his bravery and other talents, which he might have put to far holier and more productive ends in life, let him now account to Allah for the choices he has made. And congrats to the US military for speeding up the meeting.

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Unfortunately, I have a feeling that they never even new the jets were there, one second they were sitting around talking about where to blow up the elementary school next, and the next second they were dead before they had time to realize they had screwed up. Zarqawi did not last as long as he did by being unsure when to duck.

I wish they had used white phosphorous just to give him a little time to ponder his sins in this world before getting down to an eternity of it in the next. But I will take his elimination anyway We could get it.

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The guy wouldn't have bothered even if he had heard them. The guy must have been used to hearing f-16's close every day. He'd hardly have lasted in iraq if he broke cover every time he heard a jet.

As to cowardly, we'll never know. By it's nature terrorism is supposed to strike fear in your enemy and cutting off someones head in front of your enemy does that.

Japanese officers were know to do similiar things to both there prisoners and there own men, but they also led suicidal charges which may have been stupid tactically but it wasn't cowardly.

I am not saying he was a hero, anything but, however he was active in an insurgency against a force which on ever conventional measure total overwhelmed him, indeed the conventional thinking leading up to the invasion was that what survived the regime would quickly fold or fade away.

Does the fact that the are not willing to take on the US in a straight fight and be slaughtered make them cowards or just not daft.

I don't think he was agreat commander and his ideology was as warped as they come, but I am just not sure that you can brand him a coward.

Peter.

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I find myself agreeing with Peter Cairns.

IMHO it all comes down to your side and your perception. To Coalition forces, and most westerners, he was evil incarnate, a merciless foe to be eliminated in whatever way was most expedient. To his fellow Al Quaeda members, and to the militant anti-western Islamists he was a hero, and is now a martyr enjoying his just reward in paradise.

In much the same way that I doubt the 8th Air Force crews were regarded as heroes or brave warriors by the Germans whose towns they were destroying every day, but were regarded as gallant knights of the air by Allied citizens.

I had an argument with my driver a few weeks ago. He stated that he considered the insurgents planting IED's to try and blow us up each night to be cowards. I tried to explain to him that they probably consider us (US troops operating on Iraqi roads) to be cowards because we hide behind our armored HMMWV's, Kevlar helmets, IBA's, M-1 tanks, and on call air support. I don't think he ever really got it when I tried to explain asymmetrical warfare to him. As a soldier fighting Zarqawi and his ilk, it is vitally important to keep things in perspective.

Just because they use different tactics, or even commit what we consider horrible crimes doesn't make them cowards, or any less committed to their causes than we are to ours.

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Originally posted by LtCol West:

I wonder what Zarqawi and crew were thinking when they were hiding in their safe house and then they heard the two F-16s as the jets arrived on station. I am sure the final panic would have been priceless!

Oh well, no more home movies of him shooting a SAW heroically in the desert with his white sneakers on.

I hope Zarqawi felt his share when the end came. **** happens. Glad he's dead. Glad he is in hell. Next…

[ June 08, 2006, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

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Not to many people have a sense of humor here...and now I am an intellectual terrorist!

The Coalition TF that was after Zarqawi and his organization got him, so I was just offering up a high-five, and I can guarantee that not one of those guys, or anyone else deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan, is shedding a tear for Zarqawi's demise or the death of any opponent. OK, the French SF liasion officer's lower lip might have quivered as he overcame his distress...(that was another joke for the those who did not get it).

The news said the jets dropped the bombs from 15,000 feet, so Zarqawi and his boys might not have know they were targeted, especially if they were used to hearing US jets in that area. I do think they would have heard a difference as the jets circled to ID the target and then started a bombing run, the sound is unmistakable for those who have heard it. Even still however, they might have thought that some insurgent location was being hit and not them.

There is a big difference between the various insurgent organizations and AQ in Iraq. Zarqawi was not a rebel leader outfoxing the enemy tactically with his forces and overcoming enormous hardship and leadership challenges. He was focused on terrorism and killing as many innocent people as he could. His only goal was to create an Islamic state to project more terrorism. Himself dying for he cause was most assuredly not part of his plan.

Neither the insurgents or the AQ types display much tactical skill, but some do fight and fight to the death. Anyone with a gun and will to fight is dangerous. Fallujah proved that. They can't fight us conventionally so they have to use asymetric tactics. That is not cowardly.

A car-bomb attacking a market full of families or a suicide bomber attacking a wedding party in a hotel is cowardly. And that is how AQ fights its war.

Ok, I will go now and contemplate about why I lack so much soldierly virtue, strive to find more professionalism, and find it in my heart to sympathize and grieve for the death of my enemy.

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LTC West, just for the record, I was in no way trying to question your soldierly virtue or professionalism. If I gave the impression that I grieve for Zarqawi, or that any one else should, that was a mistaken impression. Much rejoicing was heard throughout my camp, and I was far from the quietest one. I am filled with joy at his death, as I guess you, rightly, are also.

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Wouldn't it have been better to have had him captured instead? Intelligence would have been able to glean a lot more with him alive than him becoming a martyr.

I doubt very much that Zarqawi heard the jets, suffered or knew he was dying. the bomb hits and he doesn't even have a micro second's chance to even contemplate **** happens. Haha!

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Ok, I will go now and contemplate about why I lack so much soldierly virtue, strive to find more professionalism, and find it in my heart to sympathize and grieve for the death of my enemy.
Why not just grow up and stop behaving like a 5 year old.

OK.

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Originally posted by lucero1148:

Wouldn't it have been better to have had him captured instead? Intelligence would have been able to glean a lot more with him alive than him becoming a martyr.

I doubt very much that Zarqawi heard the jets, suffered or knew he was dying. the bomb hits and he doesn't even have a micro second's chance to even contemplate **** happens. Haha!

Looks like he woke up long enough to feel something. Personally I would think a bullet between the eyes good enough for him but I don't have any gripes with a pair of 500 pounders. Hope somebody chalked a nice incoming message on one or both of them...something like "With love, US Armed Forces".
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Originally posted by NG cavscout:

LTC West, just for the record, I was in no way trying to question your soldierly virtue or professionalism. If I gave the impression that I grieve for Zarqawi, or that any one else should, that was a mistaken impression. Much rejoicing was heard throughout my camp, and I was far from the quietest one. I am filled with joy at his death, as I guess you, rightly, are also.

NG cavscout, I was not directing anything in your direction. Keep up the good fight and stay safe.
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Originally posted by gautrek:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ok, I will go now and contemplate about why I lack so much soldierly virtue, strive to find more professionalism, and find it in my heart to sympathize and grieve for the death of my enemy.

Why not just grow up and stop behaving like a 5 year old.

OK. </font>

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Originally posted by dan/california:

I wish they had used white phosphorous just to give him a little time to ponder his sins in this world before getting down to an eternity of it in the next. But I will take his elimination anyway We could get it.

I wish they had captured him and put him on trial and then locked him up for the rest of his life and threw away the key - dieing is an easy way out for these people who claim to do what they do in the name of god.

I'm sure god doesn't need people like Zarqawi to do his work and I'm sure any true regligious person would be deeply angered and offended by his deeds - let alone god himself.

And also why do the tabloids always reveal the ways in which the alllies or Iraqis (lets not forget them ) managed to locate said person. i.e. " the background of Zarqawi holding a rifle was identified by such and such" do they never learn anything? :mad:

[ June 11, 2006, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: SKELLEN ]

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Skellen

The reason the press includes the details is due to the fact that the military is feeding the media and using those bits of info to sow confusion amongst the enemy. What better way to sow confusion and mistrust amongst the survivor's than to get them all paranoid against each other and commit fratricide.

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Originally posted by lucero1148:

Skellen

The reason the press includes the details is due to the fact that the military is feeding the media and using those bits of info to sow confusion amongst the enemy. What better way to sow confusion and mistrust amongst the survivor's than to get them all paranoid against each other and commit fratricide.

There is a difference between sowing confusion annd revealing ways on how a particualr person was captured - the press in my view should never know certain things for the security of all forces in Iraq.

Why make life easier for the enemy and harder for ourselves? :confused:

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