Taking over

[poesel]

The next release will fix the bug that only tracked vehicles can take over buildings. Then everyone can and I'm sure we will soon have an infantry unit that does.

That will change the rules for takeover attempts as you most probably could put inf INSIDE the building you are taking over (which is sensible in every way). Since its extremely hard to get inf out of there it will be hard for defenders to keep their buildings!

Current take over procedure: the cutter has to touch the building for a minute then it switches sides. If it looses contact for a second you have to start over. Taking over with two cutters doesn't speed up the process. I'm not 100% surevbut I think its impossible to 'counter take over' with your own cutter.

Proposal: the typical building gets 120 ECM points. It 'heals' automatically 1 ECM per second. A cutter can deal 3 ECM points per second as 'damage', engineer infantry does 2. These units can also 'heal' ECM-damaged buildings by that rate.

Effective damage for a cutter 3 - 1 (auto heal) = 2 points per second = 60 seconds for take over = just like now.

Eff. damage for inf is 2 - 1 = 1 pps = 120 seconds for take over = twice the time for a cutter. Sounds reasonable to me.

Now: two infs take over: 2+2-1 = 3 = 40 seconds for takeover. Now a cutter comes for defense and we get: 2+2-1-4 = 0 = stalemate!

Left alone a building will be back to full defense after 2 minutes latest.

IMHO that should add some fun and does not seem overly hard to implement.

However, theres still the problem how to get inf out of buildings without destroying them (the buildings).

Proposal: if an attacking unit reaches the entrance to an infantry occupied building an automatic inhouse fight begins. Every 5 seconds one random team member is removed alternating between teams but always starting with the attackers (idea 'lent' from Civilisation (the boardgame)).

For example: a 5 vs. 5 would end in 2 remaining defenders. A three man defending engineering team against 4 attackers would end in one surviving attacker.

During the house fight neither team can shoot outside the house.

The take over process stops of course if the engineer dies.

Teams can always leave a building (and get shot in the back) but you cannot have more members than slots (but this is per side). Theoretically in current buildings there could be 20 infantry (10 per side) inside at the beginning of a fight.

It might be nice to have some randomness and give every trooper a small (5%?) chance not to be killed when normally due. Maybe make that moddable and have special troops that have a much higher survivabilty?

Agan I think that this change would be fun and is not overly complicated. But of course I don't have to program that!

[Chilibird]

It's an interesting idea, but it seems like it'd increase the CPU requirements substantially. The constant calculations seem like it could be a bit of a burden.

[Imperial Grunt]

I think that this would be great. I would maybe add that a standard rifle squad would be the best at room clearing, since they do not have any heavy weapons. Maybe the calculations should be made rifle to rifle and not man to man.

For example, an ATGM squad has 3 rifles and 2 ATGM launchers. The ATGM marines cannot engage inside of buildings and are therefor useless, except as bullet sponges. An attacking rifle squad should win everytime, with rare exception due to the 5-10% rule as above.

I would also add that if the defending squad is stunned from an HE hit to the building, and then an attacking squad assaults at that time, then the defending squad loses. That would make for some good tank-infantry coordination.

[aittam]

isn't it simpler to make eng/sapper squaddies unable to enter the buildings?

[Alexander SquidLord Williams]

The point accumulation system is really rather clever, poesel. I'm rather impressed; it's lightweight, keeps the current status quo dependeble but adds in some counters. Big plusses, bravo. Plus, it's not exactly heavy duty computation (since it's simple integer math and a counter; it's about as simple as computer calculation gets).

I'm not so sure about the in-building clearance method, but it's certainly worth experimenting with. As is, I seldom see more than one squad in a given building, which means an Eng squad'll be alone out there most of the time. Not sure if I buy the subsequently suggested "per rifle" method, either; how do you count that SAW 20mm? It's big, but you'd get nice penetration through interior walls with that thing. And the 6mm ion?

Counting per trooper at least would let us sidestep that issue for a while until we got things shaken out.

(For my money, I wouldn't take an Eng squad anywhere not in the back of a Paladin. Too slow and obvious otherwise. Either drop in directly on an untaken target or APC in. Too much risk, otherwise.)

[Imperial Grunt]

The reason I left out the 20mm HMG and the ION is that the weapons are very bulky and awkward for roomclearing. They would be difficult to employ inside of buildings for the exact same reason that a M-240G 7.62 machinegun is never used for clearing buildings by US soldiers and Marines today.

The rifle would rein supreme when it comes to room clearing, especially with the ATG to open bulkheads, etc...

In addition, a rifle squad would be constantly training for their primary mission of closing with and destroying the enemy and would be especially proficient at conducting assaults against fortified positions. The other types of infantry squads spend the majority of their training to accomplish their supporting mission, while cross-training in the primary infantry skills. In my opinion, this is another reason that a rifle squad should be better at room clearing as compared to the other types of infantry squad.

The random chance of a marine surviving during the "trade" calculations might be adjusted up to maybe 10% or so.

Just my two-cents.

[poesel]

Thanks for the praise Alex. Don't make me blush!

I we would like to be a bit more fancy I would suggest having two values for each trooper: attack and defense (both percentages). AV would be the chance to hit (THACO anyone?), DV the chance to survive.

The procedure would be as above.

Example: AV95 vs DV10 = 0.95 * 0.9 = 0,855 = 85,5% chance of a kill.

That should be realistic enough and cover most cases.

IMHO thats also as complicated as it should be. Going further would introduce armor values or hit points but DT is not a role-playing game.

[Alexander SquidLord Williams]

Originally posted by poesel71:

Thanks for the praise Alex. Don't make me blush!

I'm trying to be a nicer person, lately. It's good for the new career.

I we would like to be a bit more fancy I would suggest having two values for each trooper: attack and defense (both percentages). AV would be the chance to hit (THACO anyone?), DV the chance to survive.

The procedure would be as above.

Example: AV95 vs DV10 = 0.95 * 0.9 = 0,855 = 85,5% chance of a kill.

That should be realistic enough and cover most cases.

IMHO thats also as complicated as it should be. Going further would introduce armor values or hit points but DT is not a role-playing game.

We could probably simplify things even further by simply classifying the chances to hit/be-rendered-useless-if-hit to a set of ranks, ie:

Terrible

Poor

Average (0)

Good

Great

Superior

... because there's just no way we'll need anything more than "Good Attack vs Average Defense" as a mental descriptor and your mental understanding should map to the mechanical world pretty directly. Give each of those appropriate percentages or die values or whatnot, then make one "survival check" every 30sec (this is a key point), and away you go.

The reason to be making one check every 30sec is to give one side or another the time to retreat ... or get reinforcements.

Process would probably be:

</font>

• AFTER 30sec in the same building.</font>
• All inhabitants roll to hit.</font>
• Assign hits randomly on other team in the building.</font>
• Each hit trooper rolls defense.</font>
• Failed defense rollers are removed from combat/killed/casualtied.</font>
• Return to top.</font>

If we want to give the guys with heavier weapons the chance to be more lethal, bump them up the chart a step. If we think the weapons are too unwieldy indoors, bump down one. If we figure those cancel out, set theirs to the level of the average trooper in the squad.

This, of course, could open the door for custom squads, maybe assembled in the drop menu from an overall pool.

"I want two riflemen and two engineers, for a reinforced Engineering Squad," or, my favourite, "I'd like 5 6mm ion guys to go, please?"

This feeds right into the whole "Engineers Accrue Takeover Points" idea, which I find neat, too.

[Chilibird]

Why not go with a system close to Star Wars : Battlefront.

Start with a range.. say +100 to -100. At +100, one team owns the base, at -100, the other does. At a certain range.. say +30 to -30, the base goes neutral.

As for the combat thing.. I don't think, for takeover purposes, the combat thing is necessary. It's quite reasonable for a squad to take over a building, even though they're surrounded. Granted, without reinforcements, they are not likely to last long.

So, if a tank fires upon the building (and it penetrates), THEN run a random calculation of squad members getting killed.