Tempest

[poesel]

Has anyone used the Tempest lately? The only time I've ever used it was on Ice with the old towers. But against the new ones its useless. There are not many ice or water maps where it could use its hover advantage, too. So its no surprise it fell out of fashion.

I don't like to have a vehicle in the inventory that has no real use so I think we should spice up the tempest a bit to see it more often in the game.

- make it more agile (up thruster force)

- exchange the ion for a 76mm

- add a sensor jammer

Ion and jammer together wouldn't make much sense as you would give away your position with one shot. The 76mm paladin is better armoured and has better handling (depending on terrain) so its not better or worse, just different. Another 'invisible' weak unit wouldn't hurt game balance IMHO, especially since its numbers are limited.

Thoughts?

[Toby Haynes]

I haven't used the Tempest for months. It's too fragile to engage any serious enemy (i.e. anything with a 20mmAP machine gun!) and doesn't have enough punch to strike hard and move on (which is the Hurricane's main strength).

Sticking a 76mm on it is an interesting idea. Maybe even a 90mm turret so that it would really be able to kick tank butt. Restrict the ammo to AP and HEAT (i.e. no HE, since the Hurricane already supplies that option).

I find I rarely use the Paladin ICs either (although they can be useful in small bot groups for turret busting). Firing the IC manually for any extended period makes my ears bleed unless I turn the sound right down.

[combatplus2]

Agreed, the thrust force of the Tempest just isn't what it used to be. I was quite dismayed the last time I tried to use it, for that reason. For one thing, it just can't be used for the "grab the flag right under their nose" tactic anymore.

Regarding the IC, I agree on that too. But now I recall Clay saying the Ion weapon is set to be majorly overhauled anyway (I wonder when...)

It is indeed unfortunate to see unused vehicles and weapons...

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

Originally posted by poesel71:

- make it more agile (up thruster force)

The most important point. IMHO the tempest should be fast, but difficult to control.

- exchange the ion for a 76mm

I agree. That would make it an ideal "skirmish" unit.

- add a sensor jammer

Maybe it wouldn´t unbalance the game,but I think the purpose of this unit should be its visibility, or better its ability to distract.

[poesel]

Originally posted by __Yossarian0815[jby]:

- add a sensor jammer

Maybe it wouldn´t unbalance the game,but I think the purpose of this unit should be its visibility, or better its ability to distract.

I hope the 76mm is distracting enough!

I wanted to add the jammer for two reasons:

One is because without the jammer I would still prefer the 76mm paladin in all cases except on ice. Wheeled is so much better in handling than hover that it makes up for lesser speed. And the better armour adds another point for the paladin.

Two, because then we had two jammed vehicles and one without PD. That opens more options to break up static defenses or harrass the attackers back.

[Tarquelne]

I've been wondering what the Tempest's point is.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

- add a sensor jammer

Maybe it wouldn´t unbalance the game,but I think the purpose of this unit should be its visibility, or better its ability to distract. </font>

[Hawkslayer]

I think a 76/90mm sounds nice.

I also think a mini-Jammer +20mm variant (no anti air) would also be an interesting option for blitz runs.

[millan]

I don`t have full game so i don`t know how the 90mm gun or the today tempest looks but i mean this is good time to add new weapon.

If you read the history of the Rim you see the LiveShips lost their abylyties to build hovercrafts, the tempest and the hurrican are the only exeption. If these smarter LiveShips can build hovercrafts, they can know some extra weaponary too!

I mean that hoover craft have Big energy sources cause it needs lots of energy to hover. I mean it is good place where we can start test some new nonchemical energy weapon. What about some bigger IC (OMG 75mm IC)? Something with hight velocity, and nonballistic trace! Ion cannon, Plasma cannon, Electro magnetic cannon that can shoot steel monolith shells in terrible velocity!

It should get some weapon specially for it, I mean the tempest can get role of assasin or/and sniper!

[poesel]

The recent high rates of unemployment of Tempest pilots has led to some unrest on the 'Hjemsted'. Snotty remarks by the ever so popular Hurricane pilots about the 'little uns' has led to some 'downtimes' of either crews.

So after a while an investigation was carried out and, unusual for government action, has led to results:

- driving the Tempest was most commonly described as 'anemic'.

Comparing the specs with the Hurricane gives the Tempest the same power/weight ratio although the Hurrican flys nominally 3 meters higher than the Tempest. The reason was a wrong setup in motor control which caused it to yield half of nominal power.

Also the Tempest didn't get the last software update in throttle control so its acceleration rate was subterrestrial.

- with new advances in weaponry, especially turrets, the main weapon became inadequate.

It should be replaced with the 76mm gun thus saving weight and power.

- to enhance its battlefield survivabilty and given the extra power and space, it was recommended to add a mobile sensor jammer.

Given all these arguments, command decided to create a new vehicle instead of improving the Tempest. Budgetary pressure then led to quite a lot of design recycling so the old Tempest chassis was used together with the well seasoned 76mm turret. The new vehicle was dubbed 'Ariel' (*).

Ok, back to game terms:

The Tempest weights 15t with a thruster force of 300 and an normal altitude of 15m. The Hurricane weights 20t with a thruster force of 400 and an altitude of 18m.

That feels wrong since the Hurricane is bigger and carries a plasmar mortar. And it flies higher which is better for maneuverability in rough terrain but should also consume more energy just to stay where it is.

So I doubled thruster force to 600 which makes the Ariel the fastest vehicle in DT. In comparison: the Tempest could do 80 as well as a 20mm Paladin - the Ariel is close to 150. I reasoned that that should come at a cost so the flying height stayed at 15m which makes it harder in rough terrain.

An omission from the devs: they forgot to give the Tempest an AccelerationRate. This makes speeding up so slow. The Ariel now has the same as the Hurricane.

There are two tags called ThrusterspacingX and ...Y. I assume these are the 'effect coordinates' for the thrusters. Originally they are 10 for X and Y.Since the Ariel (and the Tempest) are longer than wide, I changed that to 8 and 12.5 giving the Ariel more longitudinal and less lateral stability.

Last but not least there is the sensor jammer. Unfortunatly the range of the jammer is not moddable. This goes for all jammers (mobile and stationary). IMHO it would be nice if that would be different.

The mod is downloadable here:

Ariel

I hope there is no error in this file. Here it works at least...

Have a try, its a lot of fun to drive!

(*) whoever finds out why I named it Ariel gets a free beer if I meet him in person

(hint: its not from the bible)

[Tarquelne]

(*) whoever finds out why I named it Ariel gets a free beer if I meet him in person

(hint: its not from the bible) [/QB]

Is it something that makes the Tempest much more interesting?

Is it because it seeks to do whatever be our pleasure, whether it is to fly, to swim, to dive into the fire, or ride on the clouds above?

[Imperial Grunt]

Isn't Ariel the name of the little mermaid?

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

Isn't Ariel the name of the little mermaid?

I wouldn't drink with anyone who named it after the little mermaid. Even if I drank, I mean.

I've tried it out. Nice! Speedy. I like it being low to the ground.

In my laps around the Archipelago the only thing that struck me as a candidate for change was the fragility of the vehicle when moving from land to water. Without considerably more care than I thought would be necessary the Ariel goes "Boom!"... it's when the nose dips under the water?

Too bad it can't submerge... whoops. I should try it when at rest as opposed to top speed.

I think I'll try some races between the Ariel and the Paladin, to highlight differences in how they perform.

[Jalinth]

As far as I know Any hovercraft that goes under water for any reason goes 'BOOM'. They are "Very Hydrophobic."

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

Originally posted by Tarquelne:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

(*) whoever finds out why I named it Ariel gets a free beer if I meet him in person

(hint: its not from the bible)

Is it something that makes the Tempest much more interesting?

Is it because it seeks to do whatever be our pleasure, whether it is to fly, to swim, to dive into the fire, or ride on the clouds above? [/QB]</font>

[poesel]

Tarquelne wins the beer!

Well, now you have a reason to visit germany...

About the BOOM thing: this is a bit surprising but the hovercrafts in DT are AM powered and don't rely on an air cushion. So the 'explanation' would then be that if non gaseous matter hits the AM emitters the whole thing blows up in a chain reaction.

I actually like that little quirk. It shows the decaying technology and its that extra knowledge that makes you a pro!

Also found a small bug: if you place a hovercraft on water in the deployment phase it will just blow up because DT places it on the ground.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by poesel71:

[QB] Tarquelne wins the beer!

Well, now you have a reason to visit germany...

Noted!

So the 'explanation' would then be that if non gaseous matter hits the AM emitters the whole thing blows up in a chain reaction.

I guess the rocks I scraped across were gaseous rocks.

Hmm... There must be some sort of high energy density (thus the need for AM in the vehicle) manipulation of atomic bonds to induce strong EM repulsion between the hovercraft and whatever is under it. The hydrogen bonds in water get messed up by this manipulation, though. When there's enough water you get a high-energy/high-density concentration of hydrogen and oxygen... and thus an explosion.

That explains both the repulsion and hydrophobia-but-not-"lithophobia." That "fine AM particles" thing... that's just to obscure the real secret of the technology. Don't trust everything you read!

_Y:

btw did you know the answer because you´re a literary scholar or do you read the same sci-fi books that I do (Ilium)?

Maybe I just paid attention in Lit. class and remembered.

It's occurred to me that, as a frothy alcoholic beverage, a beer could be considered an "airy spirit". It'd be unsafe for anyone other than the spirit's proper master to consume it.

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Tarquelne:

I wouldn't drink with anyone who named it after the little mermaid. Even if I drank, I mean.

Thats a good one! Actually my daughter have watches the little mermaid about...a million times so when I saw the name, it just popped in my head. Just throwing out some humor.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

Originally posted by Tarquelne:

Maybe I just paid attention in Lit. class and remembered.

impressive!

It's occurred to me that, as a frothy alcoholic beverage, a beer could be considered an "airy spirit". It'd be unsafe for anyone other than the spirit's proper master to consume it.

Is master prospero the proper master for caliban´s beer can?

No, not so good..err..umm...back to DT...slinks from scene

[Tarquelne]

Actually my daughter have watches the little mermaid about...a million times so when I saw the name, it just popped in my head. Just throwing out some humor.

Yes, I'm sure. It's your daughter who wants to watch the little mermaid over and over.

I believe you. I really, really do.

I haven't actually seen the movie, so I shouldn't be making fun of it or anyone associated with it in any way. And yet here I am...

Especially since it was mooted about that there'd be a "The Lion King" expansion pack made for DT. Anyone know how that's working out?

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

just tried the Ariel, very good, this unit would become central to every CTF game.

[Tarquelne]

Thoughts?

I think it's good the way it is, but maybe make it less... err.. "agile" at high speeds?

What I mean by agile is that you can stop/turn/start quite quickly at low speeds. At higher speeds it's not as quick, but I feel* it'd be more hover-crafty if it lost a lot more agility at higher speeds. Maybe just worse "brakes"? I also think it'd be even more fun. But of course that's a personal-preference sort of thing.

*"feel", i.e., I have no hard data, experience, expert advice, or even a History Channel 30 min doco to back me up.

[poesel]

Yes, it would change CTF the most. But if you take the flag with it, its not jammed anymore.

Making it less agile: there is just one value for ThrusterForce and it does not degrade with speed. Which is in my feeling correct since those are AM 'effectors' and not propellers.

Still it has quite a turning radius at top speed.

Hmm, maybe if it had more mass? I'll try that...

What one could critize is the ability to always be able to land (with 'x') and not be damaged whatever the speed. Some skidding would be nice (with lots of dust!), too.

[poesel]

Ok, tested the mass thing. Well the simulation is even better than I thought. Inceasing the mass will lower the flying height! That means that flying height is also influenced by gravity. That is pretty impressive!

Adding more mass would slow it down at every speed so there is currently no way to make it less agile at higher speeds.

And I was wrong about the flying height of the Tempest and the Hurricane: taking mass into account they both fly at the same height.

For the record: for a vehicle to fly at the 'normal' (current) height it has to suffice to that equation:

height = 3/5 * weight + 6

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by poesel71:

[QB] Ok, tested the mass thing...

Heh, I tried it too, and was also surprised and impressed to see the vehicle grounded.

I fiddled with the mass (and also with acceleration), but didn't find anything I liked as much as the Ariel's original settings. The changes just made it ponderous.

[Hawkslayer]

Hey would you guys do a test for me, and jack the hover thrust up a TON and see what happens? (I don't have the game yet)

I'm working on an air unit model, and I'm leaning towards having it be an advanced hovercraft style vehicle, versus using the awkward drop ship flight mechanics. Lots of thrust, and powerful up thrust to get it into the low flying Aircraft/Helicopter range.

See this thread for the model:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=61;t=000130

We'll see.. it may be weird, or it may be a fun twist.. I'm sure hills will be interesting.. hopefully it doesn't tip over

[ December 06, 2006, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Hawkslayer ]