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Mine drop pods


yurch

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Anyone else finding these things incredibly annoying? They can be used to stealth-kill all your bots, many vehicles don't have timely defenses against the mines or the pods, and even worse, the pods always seem to drop thier mines - if you destroy them or not.

I can see these things becoming a problem.

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Just tested it on ice fields - when the tower 'kills' the pods, it just makes them come down faster, making mine-pods absolutely the most effective "artillery" to date. I can deplete the defender's inventory of Thors before the attackers even make it to the base.

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haven't had it used on me yet but darky was complaining last game about it (no darky that wasn't me dropping them on you).

seems like a single hit from aad should vaporize the pod or possibly explode it in mid-air sending bits of metal raining down....but no mines.

sames goes for the cobra missile turrets, they should blow the pod to bits in the sky...

and the hermes...

and the galaxy....

and yurch's bachuss....

and anyone how manages to hit one with an afv weapon...

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Originally posted by B0nes:

I agree that they are overpowered. I can speak as someone who's used them and had them used against me.

You can actually drop multiple mine pods simultaneously straight on top of or around AFV's.

Bones...in the ice mountain game last night they were being used to enormous effect on Vorlon..were you getting it on the other side? I was stalking Vorlon the whole time so I got to watch it in action only on the west. In rough terrain they are brutal in combo with infantry. If you are the target, a good dropper can effectively freeze the afv in place or force it to kill itself.
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bboyle,

Yep. I was well and truly roystered by mines on that map. I think it was jby doing the dropping. No complaints here. It's a legitimate and very effective tactic. It does make it nearly impossible to attack on that map (which was difficult anyway because the bots can't seem to navigate around it at all).

FYI: Near the end we had 6 dropships stuck at various points all over the map. T'was a bit of a farce really.

And have you noticed how you almost know which team'll win depending on the map. Some maps favour the defender. Some the attacker. I think if we had more human players it'd help. I dunno...

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Aye, they do seem rather too effective, though in the game where I was doing some dropping, I found that Crimson (at least I think it was Crimson), was doing fine in the face of the mine drops. When he noticed the drop pod, he stopped moving and after it landed, he fired a 120mm HE round right at his feet. His Thor was not bothered by the HE and the mines went away.

Of course, if I had known that AA was not stopping the pods, I would not have been dropping them. It seemed to me that the easiest counter would have been for the Attackers to come in under the cover of a Hermes.

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Originally posted by ClaytoniousRex:

Dead pods no longer deploy mines in 1.1.4. Their doing that in the first place wasn't intentional, but this bug demonstrates the main reason that we've been reluctant to introduce artillery delivered mines so far.

Fixing the bug and using Crimson's tactics should even things out.
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Well, I wouldn't call "Crimson's tactics" a total solution. Weapons smaller than 120mm HE(which you only get 10 of and can damage friendly tires) can't clear mines, bots will waste huge amounts of equipment and often get stuck due to pathfinding, and most units can't point straight up.

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Originally posted by yurch:

Well, I wouldn't call "Crimson's tactics" a total solution. Weapons smaller than 120mm HE(which you only get 10 of and can damage friendly tires) can't clear mines, bots will waste huge amounts of equipment and often get stuck due to pathfinding, and most units can't point straight up.

Aye. I was worried every time that I would kill yurch's tires since he was giving me some escort. I don't really mind it much, but the bots get raped. It would be nice if they stopped dead when they got nailed with mines and fire some HE. Speaking of HE, 76mm and the 20mm need to be able to cut a path through the mines, and the 14mm needs HE or a General Purpose round that can cut a path through mines, albeit a narrow one. The 120mm HE shouldn't be able to magically kill the whole field, just the mines in the blast radius.
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Originally posted by Dark_au:

The business with mine pods needs to get fixed. Preferably don't allow them in pods.

That would only make sense if the defenders had ample time to prepare the terrain (not the current 5min).

What I don´t understand is why the bots can´t see the mines. Theyre meant to be visible according to the manual.

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I think some dedicated mine-clearing equipment would be nifty - maybe a Paladin with a "futuristic MICLIC" mounted instead of a turret, and carrying a section of engineers. Make it so mines are not detectable by the other side once placed (they are "self camouflaging"). The engineers are the only unit that can detect the mines. They have to find them, and they call in the Paladin (or Cutter, which can also "remove" mines). The engineers also can remove mines, but more slowly (although not as slowly as hand removal today - it is the techno-future after all). Reducing obstacles within reach of the enemy is probably one of the most difficult assignments - you want to practice SOSR (Supress, Obscure, (let's have some multi-spectral smoke),Secure, Reduce - a real team effort. Let the engineers carry a futuristic satchel charge to round out their utility...

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Having been on the receiving and the giving end of mine dropping, I actually don't have nearly the problem that Dark and others have with the mine drops. In part because the bloody things have a really wretched area of effect once they hit. The speed of the drop pods is a significant refinement in being able to get mines on target in a timely manner.

Adding new vehicles with mine clearing equipment just will make the problem worse, in its way. People will feel forced to drive one of them instead of the Thor, Apollo, or other direct engagement element. Which'll reduce the amount of actual fun folks have with the game. That is something of concern.

Honestly, the response to having mines dropped on you is one or both of two things:

</font>

  • Stop moving.
    You don't move, you don't blow up by hitting a mine. You're now a bit of a pillbox. If you can put some rounds downrange, then super, you're still effective. If you can't ...</font>
  • Extract.
    Pull out, go straight up. If you're under AAD umbrellas, then you'll just have to sit tight until someone can come out with a Cutter and clean up the area, or you suicide.</font>

There are currently very few ways to actually channelize and deny terrain to the other side in DropTeam. Combat is extremely mobile, and there are almost no fronts as such in most maps because terrain itself doesn't channel folks in a consistent manner. Mines, by their very nature, are one of the very rare bits we have to push the lines of attack off their axis.

I don't find using 120mm HE to clear minefields "gamey;" its the technology we're given. I'd certainly be amenable to letting lesser caliber HE do that job, too, just so we have more things its good for. It might take a few more rounds to do so, but anything to get more HE flying and to give folks a reason to slow down before engaging in a minefield.

The real problems with using mines in an agressive drop pattern is two-fold:

</font>

  • The dropper can only really focus attention on a single area at a time.
    Especially as a base defender, axes of attack can generally be from one of many directions. You can only really focus attention on a press from about 25% of the field. Four folks on deploying mines is four folks not putting rounds downrange or on an active mobile defense, and however effective you think mines are on direct drop, they're nowhere near as effective as folks out in the field.</font>
  • There aren't that many minefields available.
    Far more visibly now that they drop that much faster, you run out that much faster. With minefields getting dispersed or at least depleted by being hit, going active defense with mines isn't really as permenantly overwhelming as its being suggested.

    Are minefields effective when dumped on the heads of bots? Absolutely, since the things are too dumb to extract at the best of times. But if you miss with your mines and lead too far, they will slow down and divert path around them.

    Now, there are two things that mines need to make them effective area denial systems:
    • </font>
  • Once hit in particular, but coming into range should suffice, they should show up on the tac and mini maps of everyone on that side.
    They don't move, they don't evade. The only way they go away is by being eliminated, and that side should get that noted on the tac as well.
    Being visible will visibly interdict the axes of attack or movement once detected, and that's what mines are good for.</font>
  • Minefields should have surface detectability like infantry does; invisible at range, based on the roughness of the terrain.
    This just makes sense, and coupled with auto-marking, keeps mines useful as deployed interdiction, which reduces the number available for active interdiction.</font>

Combined with the AAD taking out mine pod drops and possibly adding HE ability to take out minefields, I think that would sufficiently decrease the overall impact of active drops and increase the usability of deployed minefields that it'd be net better.

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Reducing obstacles within reach of the enemy is probably one of the most difficult assignments - you want to practice SOSR (Supress, Obscure, (let's have some multi-spectral smoke),Secure, Reduce - a real team effort.
I think the smoke we have is multi-spectral; it stops the ion beams dead, far as I can tell. The reason pips show up if not jammed by Hermes or Sensor Jammers is because they're not getting IR, its anti-matter drive particle emission, and I doubt any kind of smoke can block that. smile.gif
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I don't think smoke is stopping ions.

Yes, mines are somewhat needed. I don't particularly mind the mines or thier 'counters'. It's when they're used in an offensive manner that gets me annoyed.

With artillery, yes, the best defense is not presenting yourself as a target. But when it's some guy on the other side dealing out pods like halloween candies, it doesn't feel like artillery. It feels like some malicious hand from above is messing with you.

With the ability to destroy the pods to stop the mines, at least then I can at least blame my accuracy.

However, anything that can hamstring the bots so easily is a problem we need to look into.

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With artillery, yes, the best defense is not presenting yourself as a target. But when it's some guy on the other side dealing out pods like halloween candies, it doesn't feel like artillery. It feels like some malicious hand from above is messing with you.
Well, that pretty much is the definition of artillery, no? Someone reaching down from the heavens and messing with you. At least with drop pods, you have a second's warning because they show up on sensors right over your position, so you know you're being gifted with either infantry or mines. Artillery zips down out of the clear blue over a huge area and makes your life a miserable living hell. OK, it makes you blow up real good.

Offensive mine deployment is actually not that far off what is in development today, if one wanted to extrapolate FASCAM and like rounds into the near future. Pod deployed mines probably are less annoying than FASCAM, both because of the inbound pod and because they're not nearly as dense. I've picked my way through the minefields in DT in an Apollo; its annoying, but not impossible.

However, anything that can hamstring the bots so easily is a problem we need to look into.
The bots get hamstrung by almost everything more complicated than butterfly wings. They require a butt-tonne of micromanagement to pull off any kind of effective tactical movement if you want anything like coordination. I was wrestling with them tonight with a couple of my friends, trying to create effective escort groups and it required most of my attention.

I think, right now, I'd love it if Hull Down made the affected bots reverse if there's an effective hull down position to the target spot behind them, or if a target comes closer to them than hull-down.

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i think one thing that would help is if drop-pods didn't drop EXACTLY where you wanted them to.

Give them a radius of say 30 meters around the selection point that they can drop within and then randomize it.

This would mean that you would lose the pin-point accuracy that seems to be the problem and still retain the ability to use mines as a defensive screen.

Of course if you deploy during the deployment phase then you can actually place any item with pin-point accuracy so the defenders get some benefit here....as they should do.

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Give them a radius of say 30 meters around the selection point that they can drop within and then randomize it.
Eh, I'm thinking that isn't really a solution. I need to put mines on the road because the deployment phase field was destroyed; there's trees on either side so I'm pretty sure you'll prefer the road to the forrest, which'll slow you down enough flanking gets easier. I hit the pod, and it slaps down over in the trees to the side. That's no good. I hit it again, and it goes into the bush on the other side. Grrrr. I whack it a third time, and its taken so long to get out there, it lands on the road behind your force ... useless.

Basically, if the deviation is significant enough and frequent enough to make using mines as an offensive drop useful even half the time, it'll make them utterly useless as a drop item. They might as well be only deployed during the prep phase, because that's the only way you get to control where they go.

Also note that there are only two cases you can even have drop mining: Someone is dropping from the LS after an extract or death, or they're in a Mercury.

</font>

  • If the former, they're not on the battlefield so not only is it one fewer gun for their side, its one fewer target, which makes a huge difference.</font>
  • If the latter, they're in a thinly armoured and lightly armed vehicle and very likely not in any position to deal your real forces a blow except with the mines and other command assets. And again, one fewer target in the zone.</font>
Either way, the miner is "paying" for the ability to have short-response small AoE damaging artillery by exchanging it for a greatly reduced presence on the battlefield.

Want to counter it? In 1.1.4, you'll have two major choices:
</font>
  • Hermes, which'll shoot the pod out of the air with a vengence and the mines won't deploy, or,</font>
  • Bacchus, which has an agressive air-interdiction missile system, which'll shoot the pod out of the air with a vengence.</font>

You'll want to be careful with the limited supplies for both, of course, but that's always, always been true.

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Originally posted by Alexander SquidLord Williams:

Now, there are two things that mines need to make them effective area denial systems:

</font>

  • Once hit in particular, but coming into range should suffice, they should show up on the tac and mini maps of everyone on that side.
    They don't move, they don't evade. The only way they go away is by being eliminated, and that side should get that noted on the tac as well.
    Being visible will visibly interdict the axes of attack or movement once detected, and that's what mines are good for.</font>
  • Minefields should have surface detectability like infantry does; invisible at range, based on the roughness of the terrain.
    This just makes sense, and coupled with auto-marking, keeps mines useful as deployed interdiction, which reduces the number available for active interdiction.</font>

Combined with the AAD taking out mine pod drops and possibly adding HE ability to take out minefields, I think that would sufficiently decrease the overall impact of active drops and increase the usability of deployed minefields that it'd be net better.

I can't help but agree with Squidy here.

Mines are primarily a means of slowing down or preventing a line of approach and thus does serve a purpose.

But I think there needs to be better way of processing and displaying in-game information about newly discovered mine fields, so bots and players know to avoid potential hot spots, and there also needs to be a way to deal effectively with a mine field once discovered.

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Detectability and marking on tac display are definitely good ideas, so we'll get to that soon.

The current use of mines in an offensive role is just too silly without these features, so in the 1.1.4 release the changes below are now in place for mines. After 1.1.4, when we've done detection and tac marking, we will probably add artillery delivered mines.

</font>

  • Mines can only be deployed during the Deployment Phase.</font>
  • Mines can only be cleared by the Cutter.</font>
  • HE blasts move them around a bit (when the blast is big enough to dig earth) but don't clear an entire minefield anymore.</font>

On a related note, the number of Cutters available in the default inventory has been increased, too.

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Mines can only be deployed during the Deployment Phase.
I'm not overly thrilled about this, and not just because I've spent an inordinate amount of time perfecting my mine dropping technique. tongue.gif

The real reason I'm not hugely thrilled with this one is that there are a lot of mines to drop in 4min without a marked coverage radius during Deployment, and every mine dropped is a mine you'll never have during that scenario again. As is, you can reinforce areas during the enemy advance, pushing them off-axis, but with no combat drop, that's no longer an option and the mines become something you have to drop fast with no visual keys.

That gets kind of awkward, there.

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