AP vs Paladins

[Dark_au]

which is why you should be using tactical manaeouver and not bieng seen at long range in a way that someone can shoot you....

Even if the technology has changed in a few thousand years I don't think Newtons laws will have.

[ClaytoniousRex]

Firstly the Shrike isn't very susceptible to HEAT either. I'd like a dollar for every shrike I've had to put 3 HEAT into.

Out of 92 HEAT rounds fired into a Shrike:

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• 48 brewed the Shrike up on the first hit</font>
• 24 immobilized (engine kill) on the first hit</font>
• 12 killed the driver on the first hit</font>
• 8 failed to kill any internal component on the first hit (but see below)</font>

In ALL cases, multiple internal components took severe damage even if not quite yet killed (for example even in those 8 failure cases the Shrike had reduced mobility due to engine damage, etc.)

In 92 hits there wasn't a single case of "no effect".

So 1st shot is a kill 52% of the time. 1st shot is a mobility kill 39% of the time. That's a 91% chance of putting the chassis out of action on the first hit. You could do the same thing to the turret instead of the chassis if you wanted to.

Now when you talk about the AP causing fragments after penetration you are refering to Spall. Have they suddenly forgotten how to make spall liners?

Spall is a specific subset of fragmentation. Spall is the separation of layers of ceramic or other layered materials into the interior of the vehicle. In addition to spall, there is also "complete" fragmentation, fragmentation from damage caused to hits within the interior, as well as whatever the projectile brings along with it. We also assume that spall liners, less brittle armor, and other innovations don't add up to a perfect "silver bullet" that completely nullifies all fragmentation effects.

Anyway light vehicles have light spall liners which catch less of the spall than would a heavy vehicle with subsequently higher amounts of spall lining. This isn't fool proof either and any energy that hits this will be converted into either heat and or motion (every action etc).

Agreed, which is why we do model fragmentation damage. Mmmm - I thought you were saying you didn't want us to.

The bussiness about AP passing through harmlessly is only really applicable to soft skinned vehicles.

It is already quite extraordinary for these rounds to pass through harmlessly. They just don't make the entire vehicle burn on the 1st hit every time, either.

Lastly your piece of paper analogy. Tell you what you hold up a piece of paper and I'll fire a 120mm DS round through it. When you pick yourself up off the floor you will probably find you are still holding onto the paper... At least a couple of corners of it. The rest will be a long way behind you in peices.. Why.. because you forgot turbulent wake (Hydrostatic shock when it hits a body). a round causes a vacuum behind it

The paper analogy was in answer to the question of momentum being transferred (the wall of concrete). You're right that there are other, unrelated physical effects that would make my big piece of paper stop being a piece of paper (and I probably had important code on that paper, too, damn it). But I was only answering the momentum question, not really exploring how a piece of paper would behave if hit by AP...

But if you're advocating that we also model bow shock for AP, I'm all ears. What kind of effects would you like to see? Remember, the most obvious victim - the crew - is rather well insulated from it in this particular environment.

The final answer though is stand an empty tin can on a fence and hit it with a .177 flechette / dart at high velocity. Not only will the tin can crumple it will go flying, even if the round exits the far side.

This is the final answer to the question of whether an AP round should transfer all of its momentum to the target? Well, OK, since the can will not go flying at the flachette's full speed, but instead will only be knocked off the fence, I'll accept that final answer since it brings us both into agreement. Some of the projectile's momentum will be transfered to the can. In this example, I dare say a small fraction, since the flachette will continue well past the can into the distance with most of its original reach. At any rate, the can won't act like it's been hit by a wall with many times the flachette's mass.

Even if the technology has changed in a few thousand years I don't think Newtons laws will have.

And neither do we, which is why we've gone to so much trouble to simulate all of this junk.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that 120mm AP is so amazingly perfect in all situations that it simply always kill everything it hits, are you? If that is true, even the modern world is wasting a lot of resources on other types of ammunition and weapon systems. And if that is true, games like this one are going to be a lot less interesting to play. Do you want your target reticle with 120mm AP loeaded to be The Finger of God? A Finger that points both ways? Not very interesting.

[dan/california]

If you want one hit kills on shrikes use HE, close most definetly counts.

It is the agonizing decision about what to keep loaded that is tricky.

Feedback like this is simply unheard by the way, thanks, really.

I think AP penetrating through the tire would resolve a remarkable # of these issues. Right now it acts like a piece of armor if the wheeled vehicle is in a position to hurt you already and six seconds becomes a long time. and if it as an ATGM and you can see it......

[ August 10, 2006, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: dan/california ]

[Dark_au]

Shrike question, no I haven't done that much research. I was laughing with someone on DP server the other day I think it may have been Bigweez. We were defending and a shrike came running in towards us. I put my first HEAT into its frontal armour about 2000m+ out. Hit was just below the drivers "window". Second round hit was at about half that distance. Hit was lower right side just under the side door window. The little bugger went past me, the was already a bot tank hitting it with what looked like AP. I hit it again in left side. The other human player was hitting it with 20mm and the thing sat still launched an ATGM and killed the Bot tank. The bot tanks last AP round killed the shrike. If this was just an isolated case I'd not have commented on it but many times i see Shrikes seeming to ignore heat especially at longer range shots. I still see the shower of sparks though.

I think we may have been talking at cross purposes based on the reply though Clay. I thought your comments were implying that a bigger heaver vehicle will suffer more spall damage than a lightly armoured vehicle. In a heavier vehicle there is more space to put in layers to defeat spall and fragments. Thus the effects of this are amplified in a lighter vehicle, the only thing that saves it usually is that its lighter armour allows the round to punch through. The 2 should therefore even out.

Most of my comments though were to do with the transfer of motion to the target. It if you hit a shrike/paladin at close range with an AP it should go flying off not just absorb the damage and carry on firing at you. or at least spin around disorienting the crew. Especially based on how precarious they are whilst driving.

[bjarmson]

Dark_au are you telling us that an Abrams 120mm AP round weighs 4.6kg (a little over 10 lbs). I simply cannot believe this. We're talking about a round that's almost 5 inches in diameter and probably 1-2 feet long (and usually made of some heavy metal, such as tungsten or depleted uranium). My cat's about this size and weighs 10 lbs. I've got a vise in the basement that's about this size and weighs 30/40 lbs. A 120mm AP round has got to be a lot heavier than that.

And Clay, we're not shooting at paper, we're shooting at an armored vehicle (light or medium), with two sides and a lot of internal structures (engines, fuel cells, hydraulics, electronics, ammo, internal supports, people). Shooting a can with a .22 cal causes the can to jump and usually leaves a bigger hole on the opposite side. One AP round in the center has to cause a fair amount of damage, at the very least, two should about shred a vehicle like a Shrike. And while I'd like to always use the appropriate ammo for the job, the long reload time often forecloses that possibility when under fire. When I crest the hill to an enemy held territory, I have to be loaded for bear, not squirrels.

cool breeze if you're getting killed by 120mm AP rounds in light vehicles at 1000m+, then you simply aren't doing much maneuvering. The only time I regularly hit light vehicles at distance is if they are moving almost straight at me, in which case they simply run themselves into a low arch AP round. Have to at least come in at an angle, or better a S or Z pattern. Much harder to hit. Light vehicles have to maneuver, as well as, use their speed. AP goes fast, but it doesn't go fast enough to regularly hit small, fast moving vehicles maneuvering at a distance.

[ August 10, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: bjarmson ]

[Dark_au]

the penetrator isn't 5" in diameter. The round as loaded may be but that is not what hits the target. The Penetrator is a DU / Tungston tipped dart which is more like 40mm in diameter. The shell is called APFSDS Armour Peircing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot. The last part is the important bit there. Discarding Sabot refers to the "shoes" around the penetrator which allows it to fit in the barrel and gived it the initial power as delivered to a 120mm diameter round. Once clear of the barrel these Sabot fly off leaving this dart to fly towards the target. withh all the energy imparted to a seemingly larger object.

[dan/california]

Dark the damage is not just from spall, modern AP rounds, if they hit something thick enough turn into shower of molten flaming metal droplets, that go every where in a cone shaped pattern from the penetration. One of the reason that DU is so nasty is that it has an especially energetic burning reaction in this circumstance. If it hits something thin it doesn't experience enough heating and breakdown to make this happen.

Bjarmson, I used a bigger number in my earlier post but dark's right about the round weight. It is a trade off between mass and muzzle velocity and that is the point the designers picked. Their are complicated limiting factors involving barrel strength, vehicle weight, recoil system, and god knows what else. Remember it all has to work over and over again.

KE missiles that are under development do not have this limitation. The rocket motor body gives them superior performance against light vehicles as well.

[Dark_au]

Dan,

You are right, but modern armours have a ceramic layer which can negate a lot of this. Most of those effects apply only to single layer armour like say a T-72 or a bmp.

[dan/california]

Fixing the issue with the tire will increase the size of the Paladins sweet spot a lot, especially at long range. You will have far higher chance of getting the tire and the engine for instance.

Would it be greedy to point out that, at a fairly large set of angles you would get more than one tire maybe. This is a subtle change that could have significant effects. many more hits would render the paladin almost completely immobile. Immobile paladins don't last long.

Would it be really greedy to ask for a shotgun/flechtette round?

Best game feed back/support ever, period. Thanks Clay.

[dan/california]

The cycle of armor vs penetration is very old, it is still going strong.

[ August 11, 2006, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: dan/california ]

[konstantine]

Well the real issue is what type of game we are playing. This isn't a modern battlefield, it's sci fi. If we were playing Gulf War (or CMSF ), M1s versus T-72s, tank vs. tank, then yes, 120mm sabot/AP would kill first shot more often than not; you might see flying/exploding turrets, and M1s could see through smoke, etc. But we're not. We're dealing with hypothetical vehicles and crews in contained environments.

Not saying it's a pointless discussion, just that at some point you have to suspend disbelief and do your best within the parameters of the game. I.E., maybe in the hypothetical future AP isn't always the guaranteed kill it was in Earth's 21st century.

[dan/california]

Your right, but the look, excellent physics modeling, and basic apparent tech level are so similar that people have a hard time knowing when to quit. I wouldn't be one of people, not at all, not even a little bit.

[dan/california]

The ceramic layers negate heat rounds very effectively, M1s were given an outer coat of DU and steel alloy or something similar when the Russians improved their top line KE stuff and they were not sure the ceramics were adequate. If the KE penetrates at all in heavy armor it will make a mess on the inside.

[Random Gamer]

Wow! Lots of discussion in this thread.

Okay, I spawned a game several times and shot up eight of my paladin friends so that I could monitor damage.

Perhaps the situation isn't as grave as I first stated, but all the same several of them took multiple multiple hits before they were not battleworthy. A couple brewed up first hit.

I remain unconvinced that the damage to paladins and shrikes from AP isn't a bit understated, but I will admit it's not nearly as pronounced as I may have represented.

Those sure are some tough-a__ tires though. I wish I could get some of THOSE for my pickup!

Random Gamer