Oh the woe since 1.1.0

[Dark_au]

Personally I am not enjoying this game as much since 1.1.0 here are some major gripes.

Hurricane(my fave vehicle) is now completely porked. Its ammo is now gutless and it has become sluggish and unresponsive. Part of this could be the lag bought in by the infantry. Pre 1.1.0 I could pretty much guarantee a 1 shot disable (not nessecarily a kill) on a thor or an apollo. Now I can put 3 shots into a thor and still be shot by it. this isn't a lag aim issue either as I can still nail a palading or a shrike. This vehicle was never an easy one but could be very effective if kept up to speed and manaeouvering.

Infantry.. well all they seem to have bought in is lag. I thought I liked them but they are S**ting me to tears now.

Hermes. This is a stupid vehyicle which counters the need for tactical manaeouver. Its far too powerfull with a 20mm its EW and AAD. I think this should be split into 2 vehicles an EW vehicle and an AAD vehicle. The AAD side of it is too strong and overused. at long range it can bat away all but KE rounds and at that range KE isn't much use.

ATGM's and the Shrike. The ATGM's are too strong especially as they don't really require aiming or lead. There should be some sort of counter to them too. Whatever they use for guidance should be able to be jammed or defeated in some way. I just played in a game where I got nailed in an apollo twice by a shrike. It can kill a tank 1st shot yet I put 3 well aimed HEAT rounds into it at long range(big showers of sparks) yet it was not effected by them it seemed and still nailed me. If it can kill me with one shot then so should a 120mmheat kill them 1 shot. It takes a lot more skill to hit a fast moving small vehicle with a HEAT round than it does for the shrike to hit a slow moving tank. In fact stupidly the Paladin chassis vehicles are a lot easier to kill than a shrike.

[Dark_au]

addendum:-

an easy way to even out the atgm's could be to put similar restrictions on them as apply to current real atgm systems.

Take a TOW carrier for example. the TOW can only be fired in maximum optical zoom. You can't move while its in flight. It has a very limited lateral travers ability. It can only be fired at targets between +20 and -5 degrees in the vertical plane. It can't fire over large bodies of water. It can't opperate if the smoke gets too heavy. The launcher must be level before it can be fired. The missile itself has very limited capability in terms of speed / distance of target due to poor tracking speed.

The other thing that could improve things is to make trees stop rounds. especially HE, HEAT, Mortar type rounds.

[cool breeze]

the shrikes have lots of dead space in them. I now always use ap 120mm on shrikes (or he at very short range) and it tears them up pretty well, with a good amount of one hit kills. aim at front or behind the middledead center and a little ahead are most dead space i think.

[yurch]

Warning: massive yurchrant ahead. Pay attention for gains.

The hurricane I think still needs some looking at. It's a vehicle that hardly makes sense, an unarmored hovercraft firing the heaviest HE round at the highest velocity, damn near flipping itself in the process.

I think there is something plainly wrong with HE in general, too, and always has been. As I bring up here, HE rounds are damned random sometimes. It seems the most important criteria for them to kill, besides proximity, is the height-to-target at explosion. While this is realistic for a blast (small hills and the like block some shrapnel - this is why going prone is smart) it's seemingly ignoring armor, punching through 300-400 frontal armor ratings on the very tall Thor with impacts to the upper hull or turret. This is clearly seen with the latest 120mm HE bug.

Incidentally, what the target has to do is back up in order to get the rounds fired on direct vectors to impact as low as possible. This has been my tactic versus direct fire HE since the first release. Never, ever, let the the rounds explode off of something directly above you.

The heavy mortar itself is rated a very respectable 275 penetration. Respectable, but not 400+.

If these HE issues are resolved (clay says the 120mm is supposed to be "fixed" in the next ver ) The hurricane is going to have some serious difficulty in the future, at least for what it was "good" at. I agree with the weakening of HE blasts in general, especially thier range and some of that burnfactor, as past iterations haven't been good for either realism or gameplay.

The hurricane's battlefield role is probably going to need change, though. The mortar is too low-impulse to make accurate deflection shots for good proximity or hull hits. At the ranges the hurri has to stay at to survive, a miss usually carries hundreds of meters past the target. Thor has more to fear than the shrike, since it's taller.

Now, instead of giving it (or keeping) a three hundred meter blast, I propose giving it one of the weaker mortars fired at a higher velocity. This will give it more of a precision role, being able to select better terrain to blast off of, and serving the role of a heavy HEAT round in the much more likely case of hit. The Thor, supposedly the Hurricane's natural counter, will probably require a direct hit to it's non-frontal areas. It appears, however, that this was the intended design in the first place.

The hurricane is like a child given a .50 BMG... it's simply too overkill to be effective.

The armor on the hurri is truely pathetic. I think with the above it could safely be given Apollo style armorings - even with a higher impulse mortar the hurricane is going to need to get a bit closer to make accurate shots. It remains an exceedingly annoying vehicle to hit at range through bouts of lag, an incentive for it to draw closer would be good for everyone.

You wouldn't have to limit it so much either.

On ATGMs, the problem is 100% top-attack mode.

Besides that, it's just a HEAT round with some burnfactor. ATGM on standard guidance are a real pain to use. You have to lead targets and designate a spot to hit on the armor, and anything that blocks or messes with your view (smoke, explosives shaking, grass, movement, extreme distance, low framerates) will probably cause you to miss. Bots are very good at achieving top-lock but are quite poor at guidance without it.

Personally, I think top-attack should be set by rangefinder and manual guidance. This will require the gunner to not only guide the missile but to determine the depth at which it arcs at, kind of like firing a steerable mortar. Obviously this would be more useful against stationary targets, but I have no idea how hard it would be in practice.

If we could lock-on to targets admist all this jamming nonsense, we should be slaving cannons to the thing, not single missiles at a time.

With changes to both of these weapon types, hopefully point defense could be softened a bit. Right now having the ever present hermes on the field neuters both mortars and ATGMs, and we're seeing very little player use of either.

Give me a few, lemme see if I can't throw a mod together. I can't do the ATGM thing, though.

[ July 27, 2006, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: yurch ]

[bjarmson]

Y"know Yurch, your postings are better at explaining things than the pathetic manual that came with the game. Also usually better than the explanations the moderators post. Maybe Battlefront should hire you to do a definitve manual.

[yurch]

First iteration, let's see if this isn't overpowered:

reduced recoil force by 25%

mortar is fired at 25% faster speed.

mortar type changed to medium mortar.

Apollo front and side hull armor ratings.

Since the HE is clearly broken, I've included a non-HE form of the projectile (called NOB) for testing purposes. This round will function basically like a HEAT. Take any results you get with the actual HE ammo with a grain of salt.

Use it like a HEAT round. It will fail to explode in similar situations, so you'll need to do some manuvering or some slick gunnery to get a proper shot. It will do catastrophic damage on a hit on the battery.

The projectile may be fast enough to slip by hermes entirely in some situations, I haven't tested it.

Try to consider this from the point of view of fighting against this vehicle as well as using it, as hard as this is with only bots to serve as targets. If you're looking for a vehicle to kill anything it hits from any angle, look elsewhere.

It'll be found here for a while.

[ClaytoniousRex]

Hurricane(my fave vehicle) is now completely porked.

Its HE rounds weren't changed in 1.1.0, other than the generalized fix to HE that used to incorrectly allow it to splash damage objects through terrain and buildings. We'll try to verify that something didn't accidentally get nerfed.

Hermes. This is a stupid vehyicle which counters the need for tactical manaeouver. Its far too powerfull with a 20mm its EW and AAD. I think this should be split into 2 vehicles an EW vehicle and an AAD vehicle.

It was originally only EW in beta and it was remarkably hard to find anyone willing to man it (but everyone wanted someone ELSE to man it). From a game design perspective, making them separate is great but you have to account for the fact that an overly specialized vehicle without teeth will repel players rather than attract them. This means you will have to rely on bots to fill the role which is vastly inferior to a human escort, as you know.

Still, having thrown the warning out there, I'm game to try it (again) anyway. Anyone else have any interest in this?

An least as far as its EW role, I don't think the Hermes (or any kind of jamming) negates the need for tactical maneuver. I think it makes classic tactical maneuver possible in the first place. It's almost impossible with a red pipper over your head and a blip showing your position on enemy sensors. Without some way to perform mobile jamming you move emphasis away from outsmarting the enemy and toward simply shooting better than he does in order to win.

Infantry.. well all they seem to have bought in is lag. I thought I liked them but they are S**ting me to tears now.

Hopefully you will like them a little more in 1.1.1 (which should be out tomorrow) and even more in the future. From the sound of it, though, maybe not...

The ATGM's are too strong

Again, this is one of the main reasons the Hermes exists.

...whatever they use for guidance should be able to be jammed or defeated in some way.

Yes, most vehicles should be able to pop smoke/chaff countermeasures with at least a reasonable chance of confusing the missile (when in locked mode).

I put 3 well aimed HEAT rounds into it at long range(big showers of sparks) yet it was not effected by them it seemed and still nailed me

You were probably hitting wheels? Again, we'll go look and make sure something hasn't happened here. If 3 120 HEATs really did hit the chassis then it should have been dead.

I think there is something plainly wrong with HE in general, too, and always has been. As I bring up here, HE rounds are damned random sometimes.

The bug that was causing that is fixed in 1.1.1 along with the other (related) 120 HE fix, Yurch.

Yurch, your postings are better at explaining things than the pathetic manual that came with the game. Also usually better than the explanations the moderators post. Maybe Battlefront should hire you to do a definitve manual.

There's a lot of love in this thread. I'm feeling it.

We can't afford Yurch's astronomical salary requirements so we'll just have to listen to whatever ideas he altruistically shares.

[yurch]

Originally posted by ClaytoniousRex:

The bug that was causing that is fixed in 1.1.1 along with the other (related) 120 HE fix, Yurch.

Are you giving (smaller) HE blasts to the 20mm and 76mm as well? As it stands they're just HEAT rounds somebody loaded in the barrel backwards or something. Gotta make those infantry respect the 76mm too.

We can't afford Yurch's astronomical salary requirements so we'll just have to listen to whatever ideas he altruistically shares.

It's only astronomical if it gets me to the moon!

[Bnej]

I think:

- Remove mobile AAD totally. It's only necessary because of overpowered ATGMs. Make the Hermes EW only. Have an option to disable ALL vehicle sensors on a scenario (i.e, NO red blips at all!)

- Remove Lock-on/top attack mode from ATGMs, make them Line of Sight direct fire only like a real wire guided missile.

- Replace infantry Ion beam with a direct fire ATGM with short range to burn out (~800-1200m)

- Assassinate the president of Chile.

- Allow infantry to mount up on the Paladin chassis vehicles.

Plus:

- Make the AI use infantry please!

[Dark_au]

An least as far as its EW role, I don't think the Hermes (or any kind of jamming) negates the need for tactical maneuver. I think it makes classic tactical maneuver possible in the first place. It's almost impossible with a red pipper over your head and a blip showing your position on enemy sensors. Without some way to perform mobile jamming you move emphasis away from outsmarting the enemy and toward simply shooting better than he does in order to win.

Its not the EW side which negates the tactical manaeouvering but the AAD. There is an addage amonst Tank commanders that goes along the lines " Any TC who relies on his armour to keep him safe is an idiot". What the hermes does is exactly this with the way it is miss used. Someone can sit out in the open without any tactical understanding and rely on the EW to save them from Bots and the AAD to negate all but KE rounds at long range.

[konstantine]

Why not just downgrade the Hermes' armor slightly? As I see it, it would make more sense for it to have the abilities that it does and be as fast as the other Paladins, but with less armor.

I do not think its AAD and EW abilities should be downgraded. It's pretty much the only vehicle that can defend itself against the Hurricane. The Hermes has its role just like the cutter or the Mercury IMHO.

As for ATGMs, does anyone ever use them online, other than bots?

[yurch]

I think I've seen Aittam using them fairly regularly. I'll use a paladin ATGM as an opener but not very often or for very long.

The hermes, being a paladin with seemingly half the horsepower, is exceedingly easy to mobility kill. Do your team a favor and shred either of his front tires or stuff an AP round in his engine as he goes by, even if you don't kill it. Thier tendancy to be used as a flag carrier is thus ended immediately.

I can't see it's armor being lowered, basically because it's already-easily-circumvented armor barely protects it as is.

There's only a problem when you're using a mortar or ATGM, otherwise it's just the slowest wheeled vehicle in the game. There's a 20mm paladin availible without the point defense that goes at nearly double the speed - am I the only person who uses that one?

[aittam]

Originally posted by yurch:

I think I've seen Aittam using them fairly regularly. I'll use a paladin ATGM as an opener but not very often or for very long.

oh yeah!!!!!! that's my opener, especially if i can get into a pincer manouver; since i don't have a memory for all the names but i know this thing well let me say:

ATGM are a 80% kill against stationary and slow targets, keep on moving and ATGM kill goes down to 35/40%

if fired from the hip in a close encounter, well just get of of your paladin or shrike and spit, it will be far more effective-> this point to the fact that it's the top blast that get the kill

my two cents on countermeasure, hermes and infantry:

Hermes/countermeasure: get rid of the hermes, so far too overpowered and as you said nobody will use it if underpowered;

give all vehicles some jamming capabilities-> this mean jammers sensors, in defined numbers, 2 for the shrike to 6/8 for the mbt (sorry i'm bad at names), they are simply or fired (100mt maximum range) or deploied in another fashion close to the vehicle.

IMPORTANT: they have a lifespan on their own, they could garantee (if not blown up may be) 2/4 minutes of jamming and the their are over-> this will bring up group manouver like with the aad tin can.

IMPORTANT2: inside the jammed area atgm target surface duobles or more, obviously the atgm can't blast it all so if you are lucky it misses. (i don't know how easy it's but retain the general concept)

infantry: love these little guys but bots need a little improvement, yesterday night i got two mbt with one AT granade on enemy base grounds -> was about to fire it at the first one when dumb bot n°2 try to kill me with a AP or HEAT (i was in between the two) misses and blows up its friend; jetted at him and got him right away

[Dark_au]

I was more refering to ATGM's in bot hands where they are far too accurate

[yllamana]

I actually really like the ATGMs now. I like how the ATGM carriers generally counter the Thors, which generally counter the lighter vehicles, which generally counter the ATGM carriers. On a lot of scenarios the Thors are just so annoying with their ability to sit a zillion miles away and be close to indestructible. ATGMs make them a little more careful.

That's my big use for ATGMs though. I don't really use/abuse them against the other vehicles - I just use them against Thors, and I like very much their level of effectiveness in that role. Still don't like the all-or-nothing point defence..

I think bots need to pay a bit more attention to infantry. I killed something like 10 vehicles with one rifle squad today - I ran out of grenades fast, then just kept firing 10mm into the backs of things until they exploded. The bots could easily have stopped me, but they were more concerned with the other bots firing ineffectually from a few kilometres away. In the end I ended up extracting, not because I was in danger but because I was totally out of ammo - no grenades or 10mm left.

[poesel]

I don't feel a difference in responsivness between 1.0. and 1.1. (and I'm on a slow machine). The servers seem just to be a bit more unstable.

Actually I never liked the Hurricane. This fast moving one-shot-kills-everything vehicle was and is overpowerde IMHO. Although whenever I try to use it, I get shot down very fast and nearly never get anything killed with it. Maybe thats the reason I don't like it.

The design of the thing strikes me as odd, though. For an AM driven vehicle which is susceptible to recoil it should carry an ion instead (or a twin ion to differentiate it from the tempest). The plasma mortar should be on a thor chassis (with less armour and greater speed).

The shrike is really hard to kill with AP or HEAT. HE usually does the job though. It should die if one puts an AP through it from front to end. Its a very small vehicle and should be crammed full.

A proposal for the ATGM: let everything as is - just change the bahaviour of the rocket so, that it is just following its current course when its NOT on target (yellow ring). Currently the missile follows the mouse cursor wherever you point it.

So you get an unguided missile if you don't aim, a guided one if you do and a fire-and-forget with the green ring.

IMHO the Hermes is good as it is. You don't have that many of them, they are easy to kill or incapacitate, they are rather slow and add some tactical options to the game. Maybe its just that more people have found out about its powers and use it more often.

Its a bit strange currently, how much the bots ignore the infantry. Yesterday I was sitting with my lonely ion infantryman (the others were left behind for bad behaviour) on a hill and ablating my way through enemy (bot) thors. I takes roughly 1.5 minutes to kill one and I would have killed them all if the didn't just drove away (maybe of fear of sunburn) and the ion exploded into my face...

I thought that gunfire would make you visible over great distances?

[CrimsonDestiny]

Originally posted by poesel71:

IMHO the Hermes is good as it is. You don't have that many of them, they are easy to kill or incapacitate, they are rather slow and add some tactical options to the game. Maybe its just that more people have found out about its powers and use it more often.

I'm inclined to agree, except maybe it's main armament could somehow be changed. If dropships become limited, it would be utter rapture to give this thing quad 14mm cannons and make it a pure air defense vehicle.

The only problem is that I'm not sure how effective the 14mm would be against a lot of those extreme angles on the dropships.

Getting rid of the thing's being excessive. It elminates the old "mortar next to the galaxy" camping, which I admit being guilty of sometimes, but those that complain about it need to realize that the hermes will blast the galaxy automatically, crush all offensive capabilities of the mortar, and close in for the kill.

Granted, it could pry be given a 75% of destroying any imbound ATGM or mortar with the AAD, instead of it's current level of perfection.

[Drusus]

I haven't played the game since public test days. Not enough time and I haven't jet figured out how to handle the payment...

The real problem with the ATGMs is (was) bots and close range. The ice map's base is the perfect example of this. Their reaction time is (suprisingly) inhuman as is their accuracy. BTW I think the bots have a bit too good reaction time and awarness in confusing situations overall. This and the fast rotating turrets negates some of the advantages of sneaking in to the flank, especially when you do it alone.

[Dark_au]

OK lets see if I can explain my dislike of the Hermes better. If you take away the Sci - fi element of the game then what we really have is a sim of Armoured warefare in the 1950 - 1970 period. This can be stipulated by what they have lost. They have the ability to make anti-matter drives but they have lost the ability to do Dynamic-lead ( first appeared in the early 1970's). Yet they have effectively got laser range finders ( late 60's early 1970's). ATGM's that are simillar but more powerful to a TOW (1967 onwards). In that time period as today artillery IS the king of the battlefield. In fact the whole battle field is structured around artillery. The whole purpose of most military actions is to maintain your artillery cover whilst supressing the enemies ability to use artillery. This has been true ever since the greeks and romans first used artillery in disciplined and organised armies. A mobile unit even in small numbers that can so easily negate this is fundamentally wrong. The natural enemy to artillery is Artillery.

And lets talk specifics here. What is the mechanism by which these vehicles can so easily defeat an incoming round, for one thing how are they detecting it. If they are using any sort of broadcast signal( radar, ladar, madar ) then any EW cloaking they have should be negated too. Plus the very fact of actually pin-pointing the rounds motion and plotting an intercept lead angle is a staggering feat Especially while the host vehicle is moving and jinking. We can't easily do this today yet we can do things that all of these vehicles don't do. And if they can do it in the sci-fi setting then where are all of the techological improvements on what we are capable of doing. Where is the Sci-fi version of the archer which can stop, set up its postition, fire off 12 rounds ( using a autoloading 155mm L52 artillery piece) and be back in motion within 90 seconds. This includes the ability to do 6 round simultaneous impact. Coupled with this it fires self configuring shells which can decide in flight what sort of round they will be on impact ( HE, HEAT, Anti-personel etc)

[poesel]

Well, its a game of fiction. Not a simulation of current or historic warfare. The story has lots of holes (ok, one: why do liveships not just fit the ions to the outside of their hull and fry every enemy on the field?) but the important thing is game balance and fun.

I don't want to play artillery duel, I had that on my C64. I want to drive around in the apollo and shell other vehicles with the 120mm. It is just hard enough to hit something at long range. Dynamic-lead would make it too easy.

Artillery is just point and click. Hitting stationary targets is easy, hitting moving targets very hard. Acquiring the target is hard, too. Imagine the liveship would do some image processing and tell you were the enemy is. What fun would that be?

So the hermes has some magic devices to kill dropships and artillery rounds. And you can't attack it with a shrike or a hurricane? Get yourself a 120 or 76mm and blast it to shreds.

Every vehicle here has its nemesis and thats what makes the game so good.

[Dark_au]

but at long range its pretty imune to KE and it swats HEAT and HE out of the air. Any round which passes above its sensors is toasted.

As someone who loves artillery its not fun and balanced. I model 1/35th and my favourite are artillery pieces (especially mortars). I disagree about artillery bieng just point and click. You've been in games with me using the Hurricane... I'm I just pointing and clicking?. Sure taking out turrets with a Thor mortar isn't much of a challenge. Hitting a moving item with that is extremely hard and takes an understanding of the lead required.

[aittam]

ok got your point Dark_au but we should come up with some proposal we all (or the majority) agree: personally I never liked the fcat tha point defense system can catch 120mm and 20mm, ATGM are ok but really fast and small moving objects?

So I still thing proposal N°1 is to get rid of the Hermes and put a limited number of jamming sensors with limited lifespan on every unit and they could be deploied at will

N°2 we keep the Hermes but the AAD system has to be downsized: dropships and ATGMs

other proposals are wellcome, let's try to make a list discuss it and come up with something we like

both proposals keep into account tactical movements and coordination between players on the same team and that's the point of this game -imho-

@Clay: bots tends to teamkill if you ut your infantry in between them

@Dark_au: any chances to see Golan Heights?

@All: we never discussed a modern warfare mod

[poesel]

You can change the range, the ehermes isn't that fast.

And the 20mm is not very long range.

About the artillery: yes, I'm afraid you are right. You blasted me quite often but the hurricane is not something what I think would be called artillery. Its a fast, lightly armored tank with a very heavy, long range weapon. With the hurricane you mostly aim over the gunsight. Did you ever do that with a light or heavy mortar? Those shoot mostly with the minimap and that is what I meant with point and click.

[MilitiaJim]

I've been having boatloads of fun with the infantry, and really I'm not bothered by the Hermes or ATGMs. I must grant that I haven't seen them much since they allegedly started shooting down 120mm and 76mm cannon rounds. Shooting ATGMs makes sense, and mortars I can see. There is a laser based anti-mortar/anti-rocket system in development now. The current problem is powerful enough lasers.

ATGMs aren't that easy to use: you have to keep the target in your crosshairs, which can be difficult if they're shooting at you. And it only top attacks if you have a good lock. That good lock can take time you sometimes don't have. (And it's a drag watching your missile plunk against the side of a Thor. But the downward blast slagging the turret is very satisfying.)

Someone was asking why the infantry don't show up on the tacmap? They don't give off enough energy for most sensors to find them. Try using your jump jets in an enemy base full of ground turrets. I like wandering into the enemy base picking off the turrets as I go. 'Bout all I have to ask for would be a rangefinder on the infantry zoom and maybe an ATGM team. Between the five guys you have four missiles and the launcher. Specialist dies and now you can use your reloads. Or if the riflemen are killed you lose reloads.

My three bits,

-Stew

[aittam]

Originally posted by MilitiaJim:

ATGMs aren't that easy to use: you have to keep the target in your crosshairs, which can be difficult if they're shooting at you. And it only top attacks if you have a good lock. That good lock can take time you sometimes don't have. (And it's a drag watching your missile plunk against the side of a Thor. But the downward blast slagging the turret is very satisfying.)

well if you get a lock then they are fire and forget and taht makes sense, i repeat slow moving vehicles are a 4 out of 5 kills but a top speed mbt, not such a speed indeed, its probably 1 out of 3 or 4

infantry, ATGM team or not, should have spotting capability, call for ATGMs or artillery and illuminate the target untill the slam

edit: also some warning system that tells you when you are actually being painted by an enemy could be usefull to speed up and get out of they way, then may be the slam want come at all---> psy ops

[ July 28, 2006, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: aittam ]