Sad game scenario :-(

[Yeti]

Hi all,

I don't know who's the scenario writer of

T-72: Balkans on Fire! he's not very clever guy.

Those type of tanks were used by the terrorists in their battle against unarmed kids & women during several years, not in a game, but for real :-(

All you guys tryin' to get money out of that game, remember that lots of innocent kids & women died that way, couple of my cousins too.

I feel the same way as Russian would feel if you would write a scenario of some Chechen guys droping bombs on Moscow, or American wathcing a game of Boing Flight Simulator over New York couple of years ago.

Think a little bit about that.

Bye.

[Affe Hans]

This sim is fictional and has nothing to do with reality. Read the web site information and or game manual.

And this thread will be closed for sure.

[ August 05, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Affe Hans ]

[Diesel]

Why is it that nobody complains about German panzers being the stars of games like Panzer Commander/Elite? After all, they represented a far greater evil, but for some reason that's ok and BoF having Serbian T-72 is not....

[Affe Hans]

Originally posted by Diesel:

Why is it that nobody complains about German panzers being the stars of games like Panzer Commander/Elite? After all, they represented a far greater evil, but for some reason that's ok and BoF having Serbian T-72 is not....

Not only the tanks...I would say, more the whole Nazi regime.

[Bonxa]

Yeah, specifically the german war machine and even the SS seem to be spared from critisism in it's context. It is usually more popular to play the axis than the allies actually.

I guess the political aspects of the base for this game come up more because it's not far away time wise. We at least have proponents for both sides!

[Cameroon]

There's little to be said that is positive about war. The outcomes of wars might be better for a particular side having won (WWII, for instance), but the war itself is not a positive thing.

That being said, why does anyone bother commenting on the sides portrayed in a war game? Unless there's glorification of inhuman deeds; why get more upset over a particular setting compared to other settings?

[signal1943]

Why is it that nobody complains about German panzers being the stars of games like Panzer Commander/Elite? After all, they represented a far greater evil, but for some reason that's ok and BoF having Serbian T-72 is not....

If there had been pc tank games a few years after ww2 and the people who lived through those events played those games I am certain there would be posts like these about the germans

[Magnum MGG]

1. Don't buy it then, heck...boycot and never buy from Crazy House or Battlefront again if you feel that strong.

2. If there was a game out there like you said with terrorist flying Boeing's into buildings... guess what... i wouldn't buy it or even go to there website or forum.

3. I don't know much about that war... understand it was terrible... but I've seen nothing in this game that allows me to slaughter Innocent civilians or doing anything morally wrong...except for simulating death of other military equipment and men.

4. and like I said, I don't know much about this conflict... but the game allows you too play both sides.

So... in conclusion... go away, don't buy it... don't support Crazy House or Battlefront... go play some clean wholesome game like Roller Coaster Tycoon.

[Bastich]

Everyone can have their opinion about war based on their experience. People who can say which tanks were "greater evil" (Which is the criteria for measuring evil?) or that games based on real events are pure fiction, fortunately for them, obviously don't have any real war experience at all.

But that doesn't bother me much. I'm passionate war gamer, and I really like to have choice of sides(i.e. Axis and Allies). This often adds additional depth to the game. IMHO, Call of Duty would be better with playable Axis in the single mode.

In this case it should be said that both sides used almost the same weaponry (tanks, guns, planes) and that it was not too

hard to implement other side into game.

Disclaimer: While set during a real-world conflict, this game is not intended as a political statement or to imply any support of the various factions involved. The Yugoslavian civil war has been, typically for civil wars, a bloody and violent struggle which left no side innocent, cost civilian lives on both sides, and in which there rarely was a “right” or “wrong” side.

But there obviously are "our" and "their" side. Or at least "sympatethic enough to portray in game" and "not sympatethic enough to portray in game" side. What more describes real attitude of developers in this case, words in disclaimer or content of the game, judge for yourself.

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Bastich:

People who can say which tanks were "greater evil" (Which is the criteria for measuring evil?) or that games based on real events are pure fiction, fortunately for them, obviously don't have any real war experience at all.

Don't you just love people who make such stupid conclusions as this?

But hey, I can make them too: People who think that "people who can say that the greatest evil ever lived on earth are Nazis, have never been in a real war" have obviously not read their history books nor talked to WW2 veterans or Jews.

[Bastich]

Originally posted by Diesel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastich:

People who can say which tanks were "greater evil" (Which is the criteria for measuring evil?) or that games based on real events are pure fiction, fortunately for them, obviously don't have any real war experience at all.

Don't you just love people who make such stupid conclusions as this?

But hey, I can make them too: People who think that "people who can say that the greatest evil ever lived on earth are Nazis, have never been in a real war" have obviously not read their history books nor talked to WW2 veterans or Jews. </font>

[ratnik]

Originally posted by Yeti:

Hi all,

I don't know who's the scenario writer of

T-72: Balkans on Fire! he's not very clever guy.

Those type of tanks were used by the terrorists in their battle against unarmed kids & women during several years, not in a game, but for real :-(

All you guys tryin' to get money out of that game, remember that lots of innocent kids & women died that way, couple of my cousins too.

I feel the same way as Russian would feel if you would write a scenario of some Chechen guys droping bombs on Moscow, or American wathcing a game of Boing Flight Simulator over New York couple of years ago.

Think a little bit about that.

Bye.

You thinking a terror action "OLUJA" 4.8.1995. ???

Yes that is a big terror action against innocent kids & women died that way . Massive tenk and air campaign , 400 tanks ... against Krajina people...

[Ragtag]

Anyone that feels that strong about wars should definatly NOT play wargames. War kills, war is pain, war is TERROR and war will always be this way.

Some like to play wargames and some don't but please respect eachothers oppinions and wishes and don't go on punding with personal attacks. Nothing good comes out of that.

[Diesel]

Oh, BTW, I read quite a few books. I talked to quite a few war veterans from different wars. And no one ever told me there is way to compare human suffering. So I think you should patent it.

Well I have talked quite a few veterans too and read quite a few books. All pretty much agree with me. So why don't you wise up and stop being spokesperson for people who haven't given you that title?

[Bastich]

Originally posted by Diesel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Oh, BTW, I read quite a few books. I talked to quite a few war veterans from different wars. And no one ever told me there is way to compare human suffering. So I think you should patent it.

Well I have talked quite a few veterans too and read quite a few books. All pretty much agree with me. So why don't you wise up and stop being spokesperson for people who haven't given you that title? </font>

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Bastich:

I'm talking in my name solely

Well it certainly didn't look that way.

I don't see why my opinion bothers you, anyway. Because I told you that you don't have any real war experience? I said that you are fortunate if you don't have it. Excuse me if I insulted a war hero in disguise. EOD.

No, it bothers me because it's a stupid thing to say.

[Bastich]

I don't see why my opinion bothers you, anyway. Because I told you that you don't have any real war experience? I said that you are fortunate if you don't have it. Excuse me if I insulted a war hero in disguise. EOD.

No, it bothers me because it's a stupid thing to say. [/QB]

[Yeti]

You thinking a terror action "OLUJA" 4.8.1995. ???

Yes that is a big terror action against innocent kids & women died that way . Massive tenk and air campaign , 400 tanks ... against Krajina people...

Yes, I thought on that too. And on Srebrenica, Sarajevo, Gorazde, Kosovo, Vukovar as well as all other places where people died and left their homes. See, I don't make any difference about the signs on soldier's cap, but I do between those who wants to kill the other one. I guess that innocent people very often pay the huge price for their stupid politicians.

I think that every nation in the world has its own example. How about today's Hiroshima anniversary?

So, these games are always tricky stuff for those who took the place of scenario in real life.

EOD.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Affe Hans:

This sim is fictional and has nothing to do with reality. Read the web site information and or game manual.

And this thread will be closed for sure.

Not yet. While some other threads similar to this were locked by me immediately because the original topic starter basically just spammed and cursed, Yeti (and some who posted after him) state their views in a civilized way.

If things stay that way, I don't see any harm in leaving this open for now. As long as people keep in mind that the game has nothing to do with the real conflict except for the subtitle (something that we didn't choose, but didn't want to change from the original game either).

The problem mentioned by Yeti after all applies to many wargames (most of with much stronger historical ties than T72).

Martin

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Bastich:

It ain't stupid at all.

When you make a statement where you pass judgement on others on whether they have been in a war or not purely on their views about evil, yes it is stupid.

[Bastich]

Originally posted by Diesel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastich:

It ain't stupid at all.

When you make a statement where you pass judgement on others on whether they have been in a war or not purely on their views about evil, yes it is stupid. </font>

[Milos - BL]

I am from Balkans, living in Bosnia. Through last decade we were satanised and demonised by mass media worldwide so it become "normal" to see people around watching us as "woman killers, rapers, slaughters" etc. There are many naive fools who consider our whole nation as terroists, criminals and assassins.

Anyways, there are many movies, games, books etc etc showing Serbs as massive killers etc. This game is freshness in the world of entertainment and this is probably one of the least games we arent shown as aliens. As I understand, in this game no one has been shown as alien, what makes this game much more realistic and fair than many other games.

I could see so far many games and movies which had idiot background story trying to further satanise Serbs through misinterpreting historical events and showing Serbs much different than we really are. I see those media-products as part of media war and people creating and distributing may be considered as a part of war-machinery.

Anyways, yesterday was 10-year anniversary of beginning of Croatian military action "Storm". On 4th august 1995. Croatian military supported by NATO avitaion and US logistics expelled 250,000 Serbs from Krajina region. Look at this picture: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/TrailOfTears-sm.jpg. The collons similar this were 300 km long, through Republika Srpska up to Serbia border. Serbs are living in Krajina through centuries, making there ~90% of population. According to UN reports, 80% of houses in that region have been burned up to the end of august 1995.

Now, Croatia is most ethnic-clean contry in Europe trying to enter European Union. EU will probably accept Croatia soon and this crime cannot be counted against as the same EU supported Croats doing that.

I'm now living in Republika Srpska, Serbian part of Bosnia. We are occupied country controlled by NATO forces and EU byrocrats. Both Serbs, Muslims and Croats here have now common problem - NATO occupation and OHR control, which has rights like emperors in dark middle centuries. OHR office may make any law, shut down any elected person, close any company, do anything at ther will, and what is the most important, they are not responsible for their actions!

Anyways, it will be pleasure to me to play this game. It would be fine if there happen another similar game, like fighting NATO forces in Balkans, Albanian terrorists, fighting mujaheedins camps in Bosnia and so on.

[Bastich]

Originally posted by Milos - BL:

I am from Balkans, living in Bosnia. Through last decade we were satanised and demonised by mass media worldwide so it become "normal" to see people around watching us as "woman killers, rapers, slaughters" etc. There are many naive fools who consider our whole nation as terroists, criminals and assassins.

[CUT]

Anyways, it will be pleasure to me to play this game. It would be fine if there happen another similar game, like fighting NATO forces in Balkans, Albanian terrorists, fighting mujaheedins camps in Bosnia and so on.

From your point of view it seems that one side there was pure victims. And the rest of Europe wrongly sees all of you as killers and rapists. Which is a common things to all sides which lost the war. But don't you think you see things too one-sided?

Truth is somewhere in between, as always.

BTW, picture link is dead.

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Bastich:

I was in war, I'm was not too happy with that I had to be in it. Have you some such experience?

You have my condolences. However it doesn't make your statement any less stupid. It's basically the same if I said that someone has obviously never fired a gun in his life to someone who said that guns are dangerous, without knowing anything else about that person except the view he/she has. And answer to your question, no I am lucky to not have such experience.

BTW, the picture link works if you take the "." off from the end.

[Milos - BL]

Sorry for link, it has been wrongly entered by the forum. The correct one is http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/TrailOfTears-sm.jpg

Regarding one-sided view, this may be your interpretation only. For instance, there are main-stream media and opinios which made such picture, but it cannot be said that whole Europe thinks the same. For instance, at http://www.globalresearch.ca/ there are many articles uncovering Srebrenica myth and explaining things behind - it is just example.

The fact is that we have lost the war, but the fact is also that in Krajina region (which had historically continued authonomy) had 90% of Serbian inhabitans and now has less than 10%. In Bosnia there was 62% of land privately owned by Serbs, which comprises more than 50% of population before WWII sufferings.

Did you know that in WWII in Jasenovac death camp in Croatia there were killed ~ 700,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies (Encyclopedia of Holocast), but besides not all of them were not still counted nor Jasenovac got its international status as many other death-places got. Serbs from Krajina requested authonomy at 1991. just because of Jasenovac, they didnt want to same thing happen again. UN failed protecting them there as whole Krajina region was UN protected area.

It seems that for many people Serbian victims are less important than others victims.

Regarding war, since the human history there was not such thing like "human war" or war without crimes, like . Even in the Balkan wars things were not black-white. I agree that truth may be somewhere between, that Serbian victims are victims like Croatian or Muslim ones.

Do you agree about insanity of creators of NATO attack on Serbia 1999 naming it "Merciful Angel"? This angel brought 2000+ civilian deaths and destroyed half of Serbian infrastructure like industry, transportation, bridges etc. 20000 tons of depleted uranium spreaded around Serbia and Bosnia will not be forgotten.