I give it a C-

[Don_Rostov]

I think C- is quite generous. And what is up with those drivers provided with the game. are the developers intentionally trying to sabotage this release. And please, will someone tell me how using a mouse simulates a rotating turret? I wish the moderators would stop making excuses for this POS and begin telling us how they are going to redeem this game. Like everyone else here, I want this game to be the best tank sim out there. Workarounds are BS, the joystick reverse is BS, the lack of just 2 reticle magnifications is BS. Yes, there are only 2 in the gunners seat. I'm flaming, but I'm so damned pissed because I want to like this. Pisses me off that all the criticism is deflected back to us and our hardware configurations.

P4 2.8

9600xt 256

1026 ram

[Jester_159th]

Sorry, but I disagree with you on so many levels here.

Firstly. The drivers.... Ok. Maybe they're old (I haven't checked) but they're probably the ones they used to test the software. So providing them isn't a particularly bad idea. No-one says you HAVE to install them.

Secondly...Controlling the turret/tank etc. You're not so clear about what your problem is with the controls. Is it that joystick support isn't built in?

If so why should the developers ASSUME that everyone who buys it will own a joystick or other type of controller? It's fair to assume with a flight sim that most people who buy it will own that type of equipment...afterall they're flight sim fans. But this is a tank sim. Everyone buying it will definately have a mouse and keyboard, but may not like flight sims (and so won't have that type of equipment). And how will using a different type of controller make it more "real?" You're sitting in front of a PC, it's never going to be "real".

Thirdly.. I think that Steve's comment about unrealistic performance expectations on lower spec PC's was more than fair. It's also very true I've seen it in every forum of every sim I've ever bought. This shouldn't be an issue for you with your system specs though. Don't understand why this one's got you so riled.

There are certainly things that need improving, but "workarounds are BS?" Don't think so. Workarounds are quick fixes that let folks use the software they've bought until a patch is released to fix what needs fixing.

Also...The gunners reticule. Those that have magnification are adjustable via the keyboard or mouse-wheel. Not all of them have a magnification function...and as someone else pointed out in another thread, in some of the campaign missions certain features are deliberately "faulty." I don't know if the same applies to the single missions.

[Don_Rostov]

If this is going to be anywhere near a simulation-you have to use a joystick, and with it impossible (please let me know if you can) to reverse the x axes, slewing the turret is far from realistic. Its jerky as hell with a mouse-and why the hell are you apologizing for a big error on the development team's part? As for magnification-I don't care if it has built in flaws for realism, the point is, most tank optics give you the choice of only two magnifications, high and low. There is a reason for that, and using the wheel-button is way too slow, and in RL would kill your situational awareness. And as for my specs-I'm lucky to get 10 fps on very medium settings, and the game frankly looks like crap unless its turned up higher. Unlike others, I'm not bailing on this title, and I'll support the hell out of it. Im just sick of the usual "stock answers" i.e., its our hardware's fault", for why this game runs like a turd. I personally was somewhat sold that this game was going to be realistic, and with more turret time (albiet an M2A2) than 90% of you, I am very disappointed that the joystick issue has yet to be addressed in public.

[Jester_159th]

I'm not apologising for anyone.

I see your point about the magnification and turret movement with the mouse now. But I still disagree with you to some degree about the extent of it's importance to game overall at this time. You can get smooth turret movement using the keyboard instead of the mouse for example. I must say though, it would be nice to see improved joystick support (perhaps in a patch?).

I was suprised myself how low the fps were compared to flight sims as well BTW. But IMHO for some reason the lower FPS don't appear as noticable in this sim as they do in a flight sim. And considering what you've said about hardware config comments, I hate to say this, but on my rig (P4 2.4gig CPU, 9800Pro 128MB, 1024MB RAM) I am getting higher FPS than that. I've no idea why that would be....And I won't insult your intelligence by making all the suggestions you've probably thought of yourself already.

One thing I will suggest though was something I first heard on Lock On's forums: Turn the FPS meter OFF! Have a go at tweaking the settings in the sperate config utility till they look smooth to your eye. It might sound strange but give it a try.

Lastly, I'm glad to hear you're sticking around. There's nothing better for any sim community than having people involved that have real world experience of the situation or field of expertise being modelled. Here's hoping that all your issues are resolved.

[Don_Rostov]

I'll turn the FPS off and just see what causing the hangups-may take many hours, but the potential of this game is way beyond anything else I'd want to play. There's something about being a SLUG TANKER that appeals to me-somewhere between the futility of an infantryman and the so-called "gallantry" of a pilot. I like the grease, the smell of diesel, and somewhere hard to sleep at night.

[Jester_159th]

Originally posted by Don_Rostov:

.... I like the grease, the smell of diesel......

You would LOVE my cooking then!!

[Battlefront.com]

Don_Rostov, my comments about unrealistic performance expecations are completely valid. The guy that started this thread is using a system that is pretty much minimum specs. But he is expecting the game to run at 30fps! How on Earth is that reasonable? So shouldn't I point that out? Yup.

Now, your specs are right up there and therefore my comments MIGHT not apply to you. But then again, perhaps they do because other people with similar specs don't have problems. From 12 years of computer software development experience... that indicates to me that you should be examining your setup first before blaming the software. Just like it would be wrong of me to blame you without first knowing your specs.

The best thing to do in these circumstances is to not get angry and lash out. Instead, be constructive and ask others for help, especially in the Tech Support area. There are a lot of good people here and if there is a solution for you, that is how you are likely to find it. Complaining and blaming us isn't.

Steve

[Moon]

Plus people with worse systems seem to even be able to run it better. For example: me. I only have a 2 GhZ P4 and an old ATI 9600.

What I have noticed when trying to optimize performance on my end is that sometimes "less" is not always better. While the configuration program allows you to extensively tweak all sorts of settings, sometimes a particular combination seems to slow down things rather than improve them. And it's also not consitent, i.e. changes depending on hardware setups (e.g. I also have a Geforce 440 and got totally different results). I would definitely suggest to reset things back to default and use the in-game quick change option first before diving into the detailed settings.

BTW, nobody is deflecting any blame. At least not fully. Certainly the code could be more optimized. But that is true of any game from any developer. This is CrazyHouse's first major title, and if you ask me, it blows away what is available currently. It's not perfect, of course, but we're working on patching what we have AND on an add-on AND a sequel, so cut us some slack, support us, and you might get the perfect game eventually. Battlefront's track record isn't entirely bad in that respect. Venting and flaming is perhaps understandable from time to time, I know how frustrating it can be to have the game that you have waited for so long only to find out that it doesn't run (I broke a CD once out of frustration... but that's another story, hehe), but if give in and do it, you have to be aware that it doesn't really lead anywhere. It only makes us ignore such posts and people. Constructive criticism on the other hand is more than welcome. Especially when we're already working on a bunch of issues but have trouble duplicating some of the things that are being reported since they're so erratic.

As for the drivers: it does make sense to include the drivers which have been fully and thoroughly tested, doesn't it? Often enough new drivers break as much as they improve things, which is certainly even more true for games from us little indie guy, because we do not have ATI or Nvidia knock on our door and ask if they could optimize the next driver for our games. So what worked for us in an earlier release might not work so well in the next as they scramble to squeeze the last FPS out of a multi-mullion $ title.

Also, showing pretty pictures from games that are not out yet and are from other genres and nobody knows how they will perform, or even what features they will have makes no sense. Marketing talk prior to release is cheap, and ESPECIALLY ex-Wartime Commander has downgraded their feature set and visuals in the past two years since announcement. But you know what - I am waiting as much for WC as I am waiting for SB2. None of those is going to lessen my fun with T72 or any other game though.

Now, snakeeyes, I give your review a C-, too. Quite clearly you based your rating of the game on what you'd like it to be, what units you think should be in and so on. Also you base it on the fact that with your system which is barely minimum specs you cannot get good frame rates at higher settings. When you do mention the features that ARE in the game, you rate them all excellent - sound: great, realism: great, graphics: beautiful. But this is overshadowed by your biased stance since you cannot get the game to run as well as you'd like. This is of course just my personal opinion, to which I am entitled as much as you are to yours.

So, where does this leave us? We're focussing on the less than a handful of issues that need tweaking or fixing, most urgently on the intermittent freezing issues some people say. It's still a minority based on how many games have been shipped out, luckily for us, but we want to fix this for obvious reasons asap.

We will most likely not be able to address some of the more fundamental suggestions, simply because the game was not designed with them in mind. Do not forget that Battlefront was involved in this project at a fairly late stage. But we have hopes to have more influence on future titles. At least if we don't decide to throw in the towel and stop making sims that is, because you guys are worse than the most hardcore CM grognards... sheesh...

Martin

[Don_Rostov]

Thanks Moon, that is all I wanted to hear. And I will support this game, because with all of its faults, it is, as you say, much better than anything out there. Like I said, it's refreshing to know you guys are working on making this game better. As for me, I will refrain from unconstructive criticism, and tweak my system until I get something favorable.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks Don_Rostov. Believe me when I say that the worst part about being a software developer is the reliance we must have on hardware, other software, and the user's attention to them (i.e. using the best ones and/or knowing their limitations). The mix of hardware and software is horribly prone to problems, which is one reason for the explosive growth in game boxes. They have no such problems. All game boxes of a particular model play exactly the same, all the time every time. Two PCs with the same hardware might not because of something like a different driver, older OS rev, or some system level feature toggled to a different position.

On top of all these real problems we, the software developers, are expected to be able to figure out what is what remotely. Sometimes customers are quite helpful and provide all the hardware specs and current driver revs. Often times not. We also don't own every possible combo of hardware and therefore don't really know how Card C performs on System Y vs. Card Z.

So... all we can do is look at general trends. People with this sort of system get generally this kind of performance, people with that sort of system generally get that performance. When someone with this or that gets a different result, then we must conclude (for the time being) that it isn't us. That means there is hope that some sort of fix is readily available for the customer. When nearly everybody of a given group of hardware/software have a problem that we can't figure a work around for, that is when we accept responsibility for the issue. A fix, in that case, should be sought on our end.

This is very frustrating for all of us, trust me. That is why we must work together and not start blaming one another right off the bat like Snakeeyes did. Quite counter productive.

Steve

[Badger343rd Fighter Regiment]

This is some of the most ridiculous,lame excuses I've seen in a while...BOTTOM LINE IS...were comparing this "unfinished game" to software thats 3-4 years old.Software that runs well.And is on par with what T-72 has to offer,...and in most cases has MORE to offer.Nope...you boys have to take this back to the drawing board ASAP.Cause ya know what?...people are simply gonna download it at the local bit torrent site rather than risk the "waste of money" syndrome.About the only way you're gonna come out of this one ahead,is if you REVAMP it BIG TIME.THEN and ONLY THEN...will you maybe get a gameing consumer to risk dishing out the doe.The above "Rateing" is bang on ,and probably was generous in most cases.I'm running this puppy on a 64 bit 2000mhz system with a gig of ram,and a 9800 pro.Still the perfromance ain't nothing to bragg about.Rather poor actually.Considering nothing is really goin on around me in the battle field.

[Jester_159th]

NVM

[ August 06, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Jester_159th ]

[Hoggy]

I have this game installed on:

WinXP Pro, SP2 all updated

ASUS A7N8X-X

Athlon 2400(running FSB at 333)so 2700mhz equiv

Sapphire 9500 Pro 128

I gig KingMax PC 2700 ram

As you can see nothing special here and I can run both this game and Battlefield 2 and in both cases, with frame rates in excess of 50 fps. I am running at 1024 X 768 and everything is cranked.

I play a number of different games and as the Moderator has stated, seen the same complaints about pretty near every game I play that has a forum. I have two systems, this one, the slower of the two I use for FPS style games while my other is for racing. I do regular maintenance on both machines to keep them running as they should.

For instance, I use Norton Utillities. And for the record, on a fesh WindowsXP install after updating to SP2 and all updates. I run Norton WinDoctor and it will find 200+ problems as in broken shortcuts, extra files, redundant files, duplicate dlls, bs ActiveX components and so on. I use DiskKeeper to defrag 280 gig every day and it takes less than 3 minutes. You can have the fastest system in the world and if you don't know how to optimize, tune, or properly maintain it, need I say no more.

Sorry, I just got the game yesterday and agree about a few criticisms here about the menu system and control. But beyond that, the game plays great and I am having fun. Can hardly wait for them to patch it so it can be played via the Internet.

So for now, though still early for me, I'll rate it a "B-". It appears to me that representatives are here, reading, and interacting with those of us who have purchased the game. Man, that is a good thing and should be appreciated and hopefully, together, will make this even a better game.

You realy want something to gripe about, go buy FlatOut, then visit their forums. Then maybe you'll understand my appreciation of what I see going on here.

Hoggy

[Battlefront.com]

People that threaten to download from hacker sites probably already have. The motivation to download stolen software is not driven by the quality of the game, but to get something for nothing. In fact, the higher the quality the more likely it is being ripped and downloaded in large numbers. So childish logic like that expressed above fails to much of an impression.

Thanks Hoggy for yet another level headed post. Nobody officially representing T-72, me or otherwise, will ever make the claim this game is without flaw and room for improvement. No game can make that claim. Hopefully the developers of T-72 can address the real issues (i.e. not the imaginary ones) very soon.

Steve

[Badger343rd Fighter Regiment]

pfft..I think your negelecting the fact that ALOT of us are sick and tired of being beta testers ...and spending money to do it.If you really think people are goin to just sit and take it...your dead wrong.If its crap...people ain't gonna buy it.if its a headache...people ain't gonna buy it.And one of the best ways to find that out, is to try the full meal deal.If it pans out..next time ya see it in the store,ya pick it up and add it to you "well made, no bull****" game collection.Just like many many people I know do.You have cut your own throats by releaseing unfinished and un-properly beta tested product.Who looses?...aint commin outta my pocket........had the developers taken alittle more time to sit back and actually look at what they were releasing,they would have seen the major flaws and coulda headed it off at the pass...and ya wouldn't be in this perdicament.I just pray to the gameing gods that SB2 developers take a good long look at this game and note what NOT to do.

[ August 07, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Badger343rd Fighter Regiment ]

[Hoggy]

I have played every tank sim out there that has ever been released and not a one didn't have some kind of bugs. If you have nothing positive to contribute here, go whine elsewhere.

CounterStrike, released with bugs

Pariah, released with bugs

BF2, released with bugs, first patch even had bugs.

Swat4, released with bugs

and so on, and so on, and so on, deal with it.

With so many different Motherbaords, CPU's, video cards, memory modules, soundcards, etc. It is only common sense they cannot verify for each and every variation.

Hoggy

[Freya]

On a scale of 0 - 100%, I would rate this game at 80%.

It does indeed run a bit heavy fps-wise, but with some setting tweaking it runs okay with an acceptable level of eye-candy.

This game certainly has some rough edges, but calling it an unfinished product or blaiming the developers to be lacking talent isn't exactly what I would call constructive critism (though I do symphatize with those who have technical problems like CTD's or lock-ups).

Since it looks like this game will be getting good support(add-on and sequel already announced), I for once am optimistic that this game will get better over time.

Just think about the Close Combat series(though not a tank sim): how lame the first game was and what a blast the second one turend out to be.

T-72 certainly has the potential to be turned into a real great game(like better control system for friendly units, dynamic campaign, more epic battles etc.). With a sim market looking rather bleak, I really appreciate the efforts done by both the developers and Battlefront.com to step forward and taking the risk by offering us simmers something to play with.

Just my two cents.

[Jester_159th]

Originally posted by Badger343rd Fighter Regiment:

pfft..I think your negelecting the fact that ALOT of us are sick and tired of being beta testers ...and spending money to do it.If you really think people are goin to just sit and take it...your dead wrong.If its crap...people ain't gonna buy it.if its a headache...people ain't gonna buy it.And one of the best ways to find that out, is to try the full meal deal.If it pans out..next time ya see it in the store,ya pick it up and add it to you "well made, no bull****" game collection.Just like many many people I know do.You have cut your own throats by releaseing unfinished and un-properly beta tested product.Who looses?...aint commin outta my pocket........had the developers taken alittle more time to sit back and actually look at what they were releasing,they would have seen the major flaws and coulda headed it off at the pass...and ya wouldn't be in this perdicament.I just pray to the gameing gods that SB2 developers take a good long look at this game and note what NOT to do.

Like Hoggy said, with the number of different hardware combinations it's possible to put together there is NO WAY that any developer (even one the size of Ubi or EA) can test every single one of them. That's a fact of PC gaming. If you don't like it then go buy yourself a console.

Secondly, your argument "rationalising" piracy is so twisted and idiotic that it doesn't even bear considering. Seriously...How many jerks that pirate a game will actually then go out and buy it? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. So you think you might like to buy a Mercedes? Not sure? well then by your twisted logic the best thing to do would be go out, steal one and take it for a joyride. Sound stupid doesn't it? Well it's exactly the same as you just stated with regard to pirating PC games.

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Jester_159th:

How many jerks that pirate a game will actually then go out and buy it?

Quite a few actually. Many of todays games are gold-plated piles of horse poo. All the pre-release hype, marketing and fanboy praises that it will the best game ever before it's even released. Then PC Gamer makes one of their 2-months-before-release reviews and gives the game 95%. Convinced that the game is gonna be good, you buy it when it's released. You install it, play it for a couple of nights and realise that you paid 50$ for a piece of ****. Using your Mercedes as an example, it's like buying one with 2-stroke 6hp engine, a wheel that allows you to turn the car only to the left, only one gear that happens to be reverse and you have to fill the gas tank every 2 miles.

Or you could download it from internet and try it yourself. If it's crap you'll delete it and be happy you didn't spend your hard-earned money for that garbage. If it's good you'll go to the store and buy it.

[Jester_159th]

Diesel. Sorry, but if you really believe that you are very bady misguided.

That's why you download a demo... or as far as cars go you arrange a test drive with a dealer. Someone that buys anything without doing some sort of research is just plain stupid....And whichever way you try and justify it THEFT is no way to do market research. There is NO excuse for it. Period.

[ August 08, 2005, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Jester_159th ]

[Diesel]

Originally posted by Jester_159th:

Diesel. Sorry, but if you really believe that you are very badly misguided.

Believe what you want, but I know it for a fact.

That's why you download a demo... or as far as cars go you arrange a test drive with a dealer. Someone that buys anything without doing some sort of research is just plain stupid....And whichever way you try and justify it THEFT is no way to do market research. There is NO excuse for it. Period.

Demo would be good reason for not to download game illegally. Except for the fact that not all games have one, and if they do, it doesn't always represent the final product very well. So it would be like asking a test drive for Ferrari and the dealer gives you Fiat.

Customer has the right to know what he's paying for. When it comes to games, the only proper way to do that is test it yourself. While it may not be excuse for a theft, what excuse game publishers have for lying? At the game websites and at the back of the game boxes they promise you everything between heaven&earth, when the reality sometimes is a product that is bugged as hell, many of its promised features missing or unrealistic. You could read reviews for the game, but they are still only opinions of the reviewers and reader could still find it hard to judge whether the cons of the game would bother him too much to not buy it.

So in order to properly form their own opinions, they will download it and depending on if they like it or not, publishers will either have a one happy customer more if the game was good enough to warrant a buy, or one unhappy customer less. Of course there's the 3rd group that won't buy it no matter what, but then again, you can find that kind of people everywhere.

[Dagger]

With:

AMD 64 3400

1Ghz RAM DDR400

Ati 9800 XT

HD 120 GB & 200GB

I can play with almost all in Highest at 24 fps

I give this game a 9.5 and I think that the interiors are not so important. There are other things more important. The problem of this game is the multiplayer, but a future patch will solve it

[Badger343rd Fighter Regiment]

Originally posted by Jester_159th:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Badger343rd Fighter Regiment:

pfft..I think your negelecting the fact that ALOT of us are sick and tired of being beta testers ...and spending money to do it.If you really think people are goin to just sit and take it...your dead wrong.If its crap...people ain't gonna buy it.if its a headache...people ain't gonna buy it.And one of the best ways to find that out, is to try the full meal deal.If it pans out..next time ya see it in the store,ya pick it up and add it to you "well made, no bull****" game collection.Just like many many people I know do.You have cut your own throats by releaseing unfinished and un-properly beta tested product.Who looses?...aint commin outta my pocket........had the developers taken alittle more time to sit back and actually look at what they were releasing,they would have seen the major flaws and coulda headed it off at the pass...and ya wouldn't be in this perdicament.I just pray to the gameing gods that SB2 developers take a good long look at this game and note what NOT to do.

Like Hoggy said, with the number of different hardware combinations it's possible to put together there is NO WAY that any developer (even one the size of Ubi or EA) can test every single one of them. That's a fact of PC gaming. If you don't like it then go buy yourself a console.

Secondly, your argument "rationalising" piracy is so twisted and idiotic that it doesn't even bear considering. Seriously...How many jerks that pirate a game will actually then go out and buy it? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. So you think you might like to buy a Mercedes? Not sure? well then by your twisted logic the best thing to do would be go out, steal one and take it for a joyride. Sound stupid doesn't it? Well it's exactly the same as you just stated with regard to pirating PC games. </font>

[Soddball]

So you tried the demo, didn't like it, and decided to waste your time stealing the full version?

That sounds like time well spent.

[Badger343rd Fighter Regiment]

well..I will say the demo isn't as good as the full version...so based on the demo,it had been misjudged.But based on the full meal deal...I saved the time of running all the way into town and back to the store and HOPEING they would take it back.BTW ...my collection is quite extensive ...20 plus sims.