S3 Graphics ProSavage DDR issues

[Beckman]

I have a new PC with Xp and the vid card is listed above. I patched my CMBO to 1.12 or whatever I the number is.

The problem is I loaded the first turn I have played and most of the roofs and units kinda "flash". It's totally unusable.

Any suggestions. I will go right now to S3 and see if I can find a better driver. The date on the driver from them is 2-6-2002.

Are there known issues with this thing?

thanks

[Schrullenhaft]

I don't know the exact issues with some of the S3 chips, but unfortunately there seems to always be problems with their drivers in DirectX (and possibly OpenGL). I don't know if you'll be able to find a better driver.

The latest one I can find is dated August 16, 2002 (though that may not be the actual release date). You can download it from the S3 Graphics division. Get the one that is 4.4Mb in size since it has 'utilities' (and possibly uses Installshield). It's version 13.93.53, though that isn't a standard, Microsoft-approved numbering scheme (what you see with your current drivers may show a different numbering scheme).

I don't know if there is any settings you can change to affect the 'flashing'. You may want to experiment with whatever S3 makes available to adjust DirectX/Direct3D graphics (mipmapping, etc.).

[Beckman]

Thanks very much for the reply.

I do have version 13.93.53.4

The thing that is getting me I have a AMD XP chip. The chipset showing up is the Intel version. I should be running a AMD set of drivers, I think, like the VIA8365. My Windows XP won't seem to allow me to install the VIA8365 driver, the process starts, then is halted.

Chip Type says: P4M266, loking that up, that's an Intel P4 chipset.

Maybe that little wrinkle does not matter. I will tinker tomorrow with your suggestions in the driver i have.

thanks again

sb

[Schrullenhaft]

Are you saying that you're having problems installing VIA chipset drivers ? Where are you seeing P4M266 being mentioned ?

[Beckman]

Right click desktop

Display properties

Settings Tab

Advanced Button

Adapter Tab

Chip Type: S3 P4M266

I think when I installed XP, I had a choice of 3 kinds of cards that all looked the same. I was going fast. That all list different flavors of the S3 DDR etc. I think I picked this P4 one. I don't know what the real HW is.

Thanks for helping, no setting changes are helping

My chipset for this MB is L7VMM, a AMD XP 2000+ chip. I got this to get ready for CMBB

thanks again

[Schrullenhaft]

The 'S3 P4M266' is the correct video chip designation for your setup. The S3 chip is built into the 'northbridge' of your motherboard chipset and it uses a 'shared memory' (UMA) scheme for its video memory. These solutions are unfortunately low performers and in the case of the S3 video logic core - they sometime have mediocre video drivers.

VIA now owns S3 and they've been using the video logic cores in their motherboard chipsets lately. They've also started to update the drivers (at least the latest chips) a little more frequently. However I think a lot of problems still exist with most of the S3 drivers.

If you want to experiment, you could try PowerStrip 3.20. I'm not sure what kind of support it will offer for the S3 ProSavage DDR (also called the Savage 8). It will probably only offer monitor timing and display adjustments rather than full DirectX and OpenGL adjustments. It's also possible that you may have to purchase the retail version to get those controls (if they exist at all).

While you may not want to spend more money at this point, it may be best to purchase an AGP video card. You can get a GeForce4 MX 420/440/460 for less than US$100 most of the time. These should provide a good improvement over the built-in video of your motherboard. You can also opt for a GeForce2 Pro or GTS model, which may be less expensive than some of the GeForce4 MXs. GeForce2 MX 400 would also still be a decent purchase, but the previously mentioned cards would be better.

[ August 24, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Beckman]

I am suprised the P4M266 is correct, even on an AMD CPU board.

I had a TDFX card, a Voodoo 2000, PCI, in my other system. Maybe I should put that in?

I also tried making the system run in 800x600 at all kinds of screen refreshes, nada. So this "great" system is still gonna be bad, wow.

Hmmmm

[Schrullenhaft]

'P4M266' is the designation of the VIA motherboard chipset. I have no idea why VIA chose that particular numbering. It's probably related to their P4 chipset and they've made the necessary changes to support AMD CPUs.

I don't know if the Voodoo 2's will support CMBB. I'm not sure if they completely work under WinXP either (I don't think that they do). It might be possible with 3rd Party drivers (check VoodooFiles.com), but it may involve a bit of work finding all of the correct files (which may not be included in one download). I'm also not sure of which is the better 3D performer - the S3 or the Voodoo 2's. If it wasn't for the UMA architecture, I would say the S3 would be. However the other problem is driver quality, which you're seeing here.

All you really need is another video card. I'd suggest an AGP card based on a NVidia chip, but I don't know what kind of additional money you want to spend at this point.

[Beckman]

http://www.via.com.tw/en/ProSavage%20Chipsets/km266.jsp

I see that I have a Savage 4.

I wish my XP install used the VIA8365 Directory from my Motherboard CD when it installed the video part of the install.

That's what I wish I could redo. I can't get it back to that point.

Yeah I will not do another vid card, I must think this can work. The chipset for the AMD is not what I have coming up. Maybe the MB is messed up. I will call the place I got the system from maybe.

Again you have been marvelous, thanks isn't enough.

[Schrullenhaft]

I don't know where I saw 'P4M266', I thought it was in this article about the L7VMM from OC Workbench. It states that the chipset is a KM266 (VT8375).

You're reading the wrong column on the VIA page. The KM133 (VT8365) has the ProSavage4, while the KM266 (VT8375) has the ProSavage 8 built in. I doubt that you would find much of a difference in the drivers however. Most of the code base is probably very similar between these two chips and they would most likely have the same graphic problems.

If none of the DirectX settings for the driver offers anything different (and you may want to experiment with different combinations too), then I'd suggest trying out the PowerStrip utility I mentioned earlier. However it is very likely that it won't offer anything beyond what the video drivers already do.

The next step would be to uninstall your current video drivers and install an older version. Sometimes an older version may not be as buggy as something that is newer (though most driver updates are actually geared towards fixing bugs rather than improving performance). Here are the drivers that ECS has posted for the L7VMM. The XP driver is v. 13.93.18.

There's a slightly newer BIOS version for the L7VMM, but it doesn't change anything that would affect your problem to my knowledge.

You may want to experiment with some CMOS/BIOS settings to see if they have any effect. Since your video uses 'shared memory' some memory settings in the CMOS/BIOS setup might effect your display quality (and quite possibly the speed too, though only by a little). Most of the applicable settings will be under the Advanced Chipset Features section, in the submenu of 'AGP & P2P Bridge Control'. In here you can adjust the aperture size (which is probably fine at 128Mb). The 'AGP Master 1WS Read & Write' settings can be enabled to possibly increase performance (though I'm not sure what the effect is on an integrated video chip). The 'AGP Driving Control' only matters for AGP cards and can usually be left to 'Auto'. 'AGP Fast Writes' are implemented by some NVidia chips and possibly a few other cards. I have no idea if the S3 ProSavage changes its behavior with this setting or not.

I'm not sure what memory sizes you have available in your CMOS/BIOS Setup for 'VGA Share Memory Size', but you'll probably want to select the maximum amount (which is either 32Mb or 64Mb).

You can also adjust some of the settings in the 'DRAM Clock/Drive Control' submenu. Usually leaving most of the settings at 'SPD' is probably appropriate (especially since some aggresive memory setting may not allow your computer to finish booting or become unstable). You'll probably want to enable 'Bank Interleave' though this may require that you change the setting for 'DRAM Timing' to another value other than 'SPD'. Typically smaller numbers for these settings indicate faster times. However there may be an optimum setting that may not be the fastest for each setting.

Typically increasing the speed by lowering teh values will most likely result in more video noise rather than less. But experimenting with the settings in these two submenus may be a start. Again, my bet is that the video driver is lacking. It might be possible to overcome this with registry tweaks that would most likely sacrifice performance for video quality (if such registry settings are available to be changed or added).

[Beckman]

WOW. Can I get you something in return for all this. I am a BIG U2 fan, and have tons of live shows.

Yes, I know about the wrong column. The only reason I looked at it, the 2nd column, was the CD the seller gave me for the MB has a folder with that chipset on it. the others are the VIAP4M266 and P4M266 folders. I changed drivers to that one, and my XP took them. No change to the flashing unit bases.

I will download this 4.4MB file and see that happens. If it works, wow.

If not, I will continue to read your last post about the BIOS changes etc lol.

[Beckman]

Didn't work, but nice to update the driver. Still get real crappy looking video from the game.

Would installing Win98 make my problems go away?

I might also try my TDFX Voodoo 2000 PCI. It's newer than the Voodoo2, which only did 3D.

I will probably do one of the above and just leave it at that.

CMBB is the main reason I got this box and 9-1 it starts

[Beckman]

I pumped the Voodoo3 2000 in and CMBO looks fine. Now I don't know what kinda slow down I am getting, but on a fairly big scen, it moved around great.

it's a 16MB card.

In the BIOS, all I could share of the memory was up to 32M, that was the highest setting on my BIOS.

Do you think with this supposedly "fast" box, I will be OK with this card, or will it slow me down. What i didn't like on my old box was slow load times of the turns and the time to generate the movies on BIG games.

any more advise would be lovely.

[Beckman]

Nvidia Geforce2 MX400 64MB SDRAM Made by DELL Includes drivers. Has TV-OUT. No cables (S-Video).

(Part - VAG03K538)

I was thinking of buying that part. What do you think? It's like $40 new.

It would clearly be faster, even in 2D, than my Voodoo3 right? In the 30min I have had this card it, it seems my whole system is slower, even clicking around not in a game.

[Schrullenhaft]

I keep on misreading stuff in this post. A Voodoo3 2000 PCI would definitely be an improvement over your built in ProSavage 8. Are you saying that it is now all of a sudden slower or are you talking about something else ?

The Voodoo3 2000 PCI should work fine with CMBB. I've run the AGP version of the card myself and it has done fine (just downsampled the background textures and grass). The GeForce2 MX400 should work fine also (and not downsample the textures).

Video chips that utilize shared memory are typically quite a bit slower than most stand alone video cards. I'm even under the impression that they may slow down things a bit more than an equivalent speed video card just because they keep the AGP-CPU bus busier than a video card with its own memory would.

Windows 98 might improve the graphics quality, but that is strictly a guess. It depends on how different S3/VIA has done their driver development for each version of Windows. Supposedly the ProSavage 8 was made 'expressly for Windows XP' according to VIA's product documentation (which really means nothing - you always want your hardware to appear to be optimized for the latest and greatest software from a marketing standpoint).

I'd guess however that even the Voodoo3 2000 would be faster than the ProSavage 8 under any version of Windows. Driver quality is what killed the last generation of S3 and Diamond video cards/chips (based on the Savage4/Savage 2000 series). They just couldn't support all of the features and the drivers were often buggy, had poor performance or suffered graphical glitches. The ProSavage line has recently been managed by S3 under VIA's ownership, but some problems likely remain.

I wouldn't say that your upgrade has been useless, but built-in video typically has all sorts of performance compromises or driver quality issues. An AGP card should work fine and improve the situation quite a bit (though there probably isn't much of a difference between a Voodoo PCI card and the AGP version from what I've read about 3dfx products).

In terms of 2D quality I'm not sure what kind of difference you'll see between the GeForce2 MX400 and the Voodoo3 2000 PCI. I've heard a number of people say that the Voodoo family has better video output circuitry which results in a crisper image than many NVidia cards. In regards to 2D performance I don't know if you'll see much of a difference (if any). For 3D performance the GeForce2 MX400 should win. Here's some charts from Tom's Hardware, though they don't compare the very latest ATI's or any of the 3dfx Voodoos, it will give you some sort of reference. Be aware that if you consider an ATI card that they don't support fog tables under DirectX (at least to the extent that CM needs - hence they don't appear).

[Jarmo]

A thing to consider.

Supposedly CMBB requires 32MB's for all the graphics glory.

It'll work with less, but won't look as good.

IMO, that GF2 would be just fine, although it would still hold

back your system *a lot*. 2000XP cries out for something better.

GF4MX would definitely be a better choice.

[Beckman]

Thanks you two.

Tough decision on the card.

First, even to invest more $$$.

Second, what card to get.

I am happily going along again in my games. that's step one. Step 2 is to be happily going along in CMBB.

Above it was mentioned even this GeForce2 card will hold my system back. Meaning with the processor, my fillrate could be that much higer?

I am not into 1st person shooters, used to be.

I like the TV out on the card I mentioned.

Also, good point on the 32MB for better graphics on CMBB, TOUGH CALL.

Anyway, thanks so much to the forum.

[Beckman]

I hope you guys work on commision. I ordered a GeForce4 MX 420 AGP. I never had an AGP card b4.

Again thanks for all the help

sb