WindowsXP Problems

[Linda WarChest]

Setup:

1.3 AMD CPU

512 mgs ram

ASUS mother board

ASUS 7700 with 32 mgs ram

Nvidia v21.83 drivers loaded

The problems I am having is running CM v1.12 under WindowsXP are as follows:

1) I cannot find the proper resolution for CM to fill the screen, the screen is not being fully utilized. When I originally loaded CM under WIN98 it adjusted automatically;

2) The letters on the control panel at the bottom of the screen and the short cut panel for plotting moves flicker and sometimes change colours; and

3) After the turn is done, the save file name field is blank and I cannot type text in, so the file saves under the file name as originally loaded.

In the end, who takes responsibility to ensure CM runs under XP properly ?

Is it Microsoft, ASUS, Nividia, AMD or BTS ??

I do not know what the problem is so I do not know where to turn to fix it ?!

An opinion from BTS technical support is required.

Thank you in advance for your response.

[Schrullenhaft]

1) What resolution are you running at ? When you selected a resolution and refresh rate for CMBO what did you select ? The same resolution, but a different refresh rate can display differently on your monitor (a lower or higher refresh rate may take up less screen space if your monitor's screen adjustments had been made at a different refresh rate). Is there a specific monitor profile for you monitor or are you just using 'Plug and Play' or 'Default' as the monitor type ?

2) The problems you are seeing are well known problems with the NVidia drivers under Windows 2000 and Windows XP. Most other brands of video card don't exhibit this specific problem (though some others may, I believe), so it isn't a problem with CMBO and 2000/XP. This problem has existed with every Windows 2000/XP driver NVidia has come out with (with the possible exception of a 3.68 driver written for NT, but possibly ported by Dell for one of their OEM cards). Nvidia is aware of this problem, but when and if it will get fixed is unknown. I believe that enabling FSAA may reduce the flickering/corruption, but probably not completely. Also ESC'ing or ALT-TAB'ing to minimize CM and then re-maximize it helps with certain corruption/transparency issues (but it doesn't always work).

3) I'm not sure about a solution to this problem. You're unable to click in the text box and start typing ? Have you tried TAB'ing around or performing an ALT-TAB (or ESC) to minimize CM and then re-maximize CM ? 2D screens that come up after the 3D battlefield may be corrupt or completely dark with the Nvidia drivers. This is an associated problem with the white transparency problem that you were seeing in Question #2.

As to who is responsible for certain problems - that is almost always going to vary. BTS has stated that CMBO is a 'completed product' and no further updates or patches are expected. Windows XP came out after this statement was made, so it would be a bit unfair to assume that BTS should fix any problems with running CMBO under XP. It's not that BTS is unsympathetic to the customer's plight, but that the costs of maintaining a small company forces them to put their time and efforts into the next product (or they couldn't afford to stay in business).

Many problems people run into with CMBO are often due to the video or sound drivers, their software configuration or other elements of their setup. CMBO uses standard DirectX calls, but not all drivers support all calls equally or correctly. Making patches to accomodate every possible driver problem is highly unrealistic and fruitless since most of these problems often disappear with driver updates (if the product is still being supported by the hardware manufacturer).

[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]</p>

[Linda WarChest]

Hello Schrullenhaft,

Thx for your timely response.

I would like the owners of BTS/CM to create a webpage outlining the problems with Nividia/XP/CM as follows:

1) What are the problems;

2) How to fix the problems;

3) What CM has done to rectify the problems; and

4) Their recommendation Nividia/XP/CM upgrades.

I wouldn't have purchased XP right away if I knew there were problems. I figured BTS and Nividia would have got ahold of a copy of XP and got everything working before the release date and had there script built into the XP CD Rom !

Could someone forward this to the BTS owners I do not know their email addresses and they do not seem to post here much.

Thx

[Ellros]

The problems with the Nvidia drivers have been known for a long time. If you can find the thread (this page, or maybe the next one or two) with Nvidia in the title, it has a list of possible fix ideas from BTS.

Also... read through the threads here for any post about XP by Rune. He's been using XP for several months (beta-tester I believe), and he has had few problems with CM, besides the Nvidia driver problem.

IIRC, Madmatt also mentioned that Nvidia is aware of the problems and may be working on a fix, but I can't remember for sure, and I can't find that particular thread.

[ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: Ellros ]</p>

[Lawyer]

What a fine mess. This is an important issue to me because I am right on the verge of getting a new computer.

I figured CM would work fine with Nvidia GeForce because it's the market leader. CM is finicky with my mouse. The game will only run at destop resoluton on my PIII with Win98 and a Voodoo 5500, but no higher than 1024x768. I read that the Radeon cards don't show fog in CM.

So I think Linda raises a good point. If Windows XP and Nvidia rule the market, what are we supposed to do to get CM to run right on them? We can all wish that MS and Nvidia would give first priority to making CM run, but I doubt that will happen. I think the burden will be on BTS to help users find solutions and also make their case to large vendors in order to sell CM.

BTS certainly has more knowledge and clout than I do to make CM work with mainstream hardware and OS.

[Mattias]

Ok, a cross post to fill out the number of test subjects

XP home edition, the now standard release version.

ASUS GTS 2 running with the 21.83 XP/2000 drivers.

I get the following non show stopper glitches:

Every time I run CM for the first time in a session the only problem I get is distorted “landmark” text on the map and some very minor glitches in the text on the unit bar.

In the event that I have to exit the scenario by any other way than by “Esc” there is a very “good” chance that the opening screen will be disrupted when I restart CM without rebooting the computer. When that happens the screen background is dotted by black pixels and all text is transparent.

Moving on to the scenario selection screen the text is likewise transparent but even harder to read since it is smaller. And finally, and most frustrating, all scenario descriptions and briefings are gone. I can see the buttons and the side bar but nothing of the text or the background to the text.

But if I press on into the scenario it will still work fine, except for the glitches mentioned above.

All in all, a survivable state of affair. Sorry to hear others have been hit harder in this respect.

Ah, I suppose I have to add that CM does not run as fast in XP as it did in win 98 2nd, I don’t know if that is a driver issue though. To it’s credit XP seems very stable so far.

M.

[Doug Beman]

And such are the dangers of riding the bleeding edge of technology.

Last summer I purchased a new PC: Thunderbird 700mhz riding on an ASUS SocketA PC133 motherboard (ATA100, AGP4 support, all that good crap) along with an ASUS GeForce card. The system arrived and everything worked fine except CM, which locked immediately upon a scenario's start. I sent the system back to the mfr, who discovered an incompatibility between the CPU, mobo and video card (those early TBird/SocketA/GeForce combos were really finicky) and swapped everything out for a plain-jane P3/mobo/Matrox card. Has been almost faultless since.

What I'm saying is that, even in cases where everything works great BUT one single thing, it is quite possible that the fault lies somewhere OTHER than that one single thing.

DjB

[Mattias]

Amen to that Doug. For two weeks I have been trying to get a piece of broad band software to correctly identify my NIC. Despite having ripped the computer apart, reinstalled every piece of software, several times there is something in the way.

E0083 error.. no adapter with TCP stack enabled.. or some such..

Phu

M.

[Swift]

If you have problems with the graphics on a GeForce card try setting the antialiasing to "manual mode 2x" under advanced display settings and using ESC several times until the text reappears.

Under Windows XP it might be a good idea to increase the default swap file size to increase performance.

[medlinke]

I have the same video card setup as you with WinXP and have no problems. Seriously everything loaded great, and actually I am running the game at 1280 x 1024 now, which I couldn't before. The new Nvidia N drivers are great.

[jhdeerslayer]

Some formal statement and status from BTS would be helpful I think as well. I would assume as CMBB is being newly developed this graphics issue is being investigated since all caveats about a game released before XP/nVidia would not apply. Can't imagine they would release a new game that would still have to deal with this driver issue unless they are hoping nVidia will fix it before the release of CMBB which seems an unlikely business strategy. I wonder if any CMBB work could be ported to CMBO or some other lessons learned? At some point or another, BTS would have to address this I would think is my point unless nVidia comes through with a quick fix.

About to buy a new PC and holding off waiting for a good driver from nVidia. Seems crazy to me !

[depawel]

I am having no problems with XP either. I am using a Nvidia gforce 2 with a P4 processor.

The first time a ran CM under XP the scenario screen was corrupted and the briefings didn't show; but after exiting and starting again everything has been normal.

After that, no further problems running under XP.

[rune]

to answer:

I did test windows xp, and tested CM on it. However, the drivers were NOT an issue until nvidia changed them when it got closer to release time. It is impossible for any software company to keep up with various drivers, changing quite litterally every week.

Nvidia has been made aware of the problem, and the problem IS on their side. To expect BTS to remove all the white text out of the game, then nvidia fix it is an unrealistic demand and a waste of time. A directx call is a directx call, and CM was written to the MS spec.

I am constantly testing new "beta" drivers leaked by Nvidia. When i get one that fixes the problem, will let you know.

Rune

[rune]

I have done indepth testing with CMBO today with the latest 21.88 drivers that are "leaked". I found that if i go into the game in software mode, I do not have any errors, while if I have the hardware acceleration on, bamm...transparency issues. I have played around and everything indicates to me a driver issue.

To those who have it working, please email rune@ameritech.net what card, what version driver and any setting changes in XP.

rune

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Linda WarChest:

Well it has been 24 hours since the thread started and BTS still has not come out with a statement about anything !!

Seems that those of you who follow your CM leaders so blindly have had an eye opening experience.

THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOU !

I believe this is what BTS is really thinking:

"Just send us your money like a bunch of sheeple. It doesn't matter if the CM software works, as long as we have your money ! We are big now, we don't care about our customers anymore, bye suckers!"<hr></blockquote>

...You are revolted, talk to us,don't be shy , come on tell us your real problems, is nothing to do with CM isn't it ?

Some one said earlier that all problems are because of Sex and Hitler (if it was not exactly that it was more or less ). Being a part time shrink, I think the center of the problem lays in the fact of this patient thinks he (or should I say she) is a women. This is a common disturbance and leads to depression, the patient with a compleat absence of good Sex (with Hitler or not is nothing of my business), will end up blaming the world because of his male sex...

[Diceman]

I was considering buying a setup much like Linda's. In the closed thread on this topic, it was mentioned that XP can be run in WIN98 mode. Is this accurate, and does it solve the problem? I was going to purchase XP along with the barebones I was going to buy (discount if purchased with computer), but I'm now wondering if it's worth the money. BTW how would I set things up for a dual booting system, I.E. be able to boot XP or 98 as required, and is it nessesary with the WIN98 mode capability? Inquireing minds want to know.

[Soddball]

Somebody mentioned on the locked thread that Win98 mode just relates to desktop appearance, not to functionality. Hope that helps.

In 2K, you use the boot.ini to set up a dual-boot system. It's a simple but inelegant process. It also works better with a pair of hard disks, since 2K(and I would guess XP) should run on NTFS rather than FAT for security and to gain best functionality.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I don't have XP, but I read in some computer magazines that XP can be run in different modes such as 98 to emulate older versions of the OS, thereby tricking the older programs into running. So, I think it is more than just for appearances. I think XP has a "classic mode" or something like that for appearance purposes. I don't know if this would solve the XP trouble that people are having, but it couldn't hurt to try it. If the problems are driver related I don't think running under Win98 emulation is going to help.

[Doug Beman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Some one said earlier that all problems are because of Sex and Hitler<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I think all problems are caused by Sex and Death. Our desire for one (and the complications arising from either having, or not having, a source) and our fear of the other (and the complications from avoiding, or not avoiding, a source)

But which is desired and which is feared? Ah, therein lies the rub.

DjB

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]</p>

[Linda WarChest]

It seems that BTS and KwazyDog are hiding behind their evil thread locking device. Instead of acting like a "real man" and answering the following questions:

1) What steps have been taken to rectify the problems; and

2) Will a Webpage be created to keep people informed.

Obviously, there is a hardware/software conflict, so let's get it fixed.

Thx,

L

[WWB]

Linda:

1) They have looked into it, as has been repeated by several people. If you see Rune or Schullenraft say anything here, you might as well consider them BTS. And as I understand the problems, they are not irreconcilable, but require a few simple work arounds depending on your configuration. You might have bought XP thinking that it would be the be all, end all effortless OS, but you are quite mistaken.

2) This is the webpage to keep you informed. It is kept quite current, far more current than any webpage, by the efforts of the community here. Your question did not go unanswered, did it?

WWB

PS: is it just me, or does this feel like a return of Gunny Bunny. Down to the 'Thx' and the attitude? Not to mention he did post about a similar problem on a very similar computer on a different forum a week ago. Lazy bastard.

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: wwb_99 ]</p>

[Diceman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

If the problems are driver related I don't think running under Win98 emulation is going to help.<hr></blockquote>

Actually it might. One of the root causes of WIN2000/WINXP problems, so I'm told (read that as - I got this second hand) is that WIN2000/WINXP are true 32 bit systems, while WIN9X is not. The trick is to get the drivers to work on both systems. Since the drivers in question were originaly coded for WIN 9X, it is possible, (and the experience of some on this forum) that the drivers work better with the older OS. As new cards come out, with drivers written for XP from the ground up, this situation will reverse.

Cheers

Eric

[Schrullenhaft]

I can't speak for BTS officially, but...

1a) CMBO is considered a finished product and no further patches are expected. BTS is deeply involved in working on CMBB at the moment and that is their primary concern.

1b) The problem you are having is driver-related and not one of CMBO being incompatible with WindowsXP or Windows 2000. ATI drivers don't have the same problem under WinXP that NVidia does. While Nvidia may be the most popular video chipset maker on the PC platform it would most likely be a wasted effort to try to accomodate this bug in Nvidia's drivers. I can't name other games that are experiencing similar issues (they have to be 3D DirectX games that have 2D elements to them running under Win2K/XP), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are other titles that are having problems with these same drivers.

1c) There are workarounds/solutions to your problems. If you are unwilling to try them out, then nothing more can be done to help you. Nvidia had FSAA (antialiasing) problems in CMBO before (with the release of 8.xx series Detonator drivers). Many people asked that BTS fix this problem, but it was only occuring with the latest Nvidia drivers with FSAA enabled. Once the Detonator 4/XP series drivers (21.xx) came out the FSAA problem was mostly gone (there are a few issues, but they're easily implemented solutions). It just requires patience to wait for the driver developers to catch up with the bugs that are applicable to CM.

1d) Nvidia is aware of the problem. That is all that BTS can do (as stated by BTS employees already). This is a driver-related issue that would be fruitless for BTS to attempt some sort of patch to accomodate. Exercise patience - or annoy Nvidia if it really bothers you - a fix will hopefully be forthcoming at some point. Once a driver (usually an 'unofficial' one at first) has been released that fixes this problem you'll probably hear about it on this board.

2) Madmatt (a BTS employee who is responsible, among other things, for technical support) wanted to make a webpage answering common technical problems in the past. He might get around to doing this once CMBB is released. Right now he has his hands full with CMBB's development and doesn't have the time to redesign the site to accomodate your 'info page'.

I believe that CMBB will try to accomodate the current state of Nvidia drivers when it comes out. Again it won't be a perfect solution since the driver actually causes a limitation in what you can do to address it's shortcoming.

If you're serious about finding a solution/workaround, then read the contents of the threads you've started. Several people have tried to help you and if you don't want to accept their help then we can only assume that you're not interested in actually finding a solution. If you expect to dictate how a solution will be delivered, then I think you will be disappointed.

Diceman - actually the drivers that are written for Win2K and XP are different from the ones for Win9x/ME. That' why there's a feature/bug difference between them. Win2K and XP are based on 32-bit kernels and don't have any 'legacy' 16-bit code like Win9x (which was mostly 32-bit, but kept some code to run older apps that Win2K & XP probably won't be able to run), but that isn't the direct issue here. It just takes time to debug the new drivers for all situations. The Win9x/ME drivers have essentially had since 95 or so to fully 'shake out' for some hardware (of course that's dependent on when the hardware actually was developed).

The Win98 mode you've heard about is strictly an interface option that doesn't affect the driver's functionality or bugginess. It's there so that some applications that haven't be 're-dressed' for XP can still look proper if some of their dialogs and interface items don't mesh well or become corrupt with the newer inteface of XP.

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]</p>

[Madmatt]

Okay, lots to cover here but my time is short so let me be brief.

#1 Linda is actually Gunny Bunny who has been banned here REPEATEDLY and is being so...AGAIN.

#2 We have posted a note about the XP situation on the Combat Mission ordering pages to notify prospective customers about this issue.

#3 Even though we are a game devoloper we did not get any advance copies of XP to play with so this whole matter is just as new to us as to you guys, probably more so as we don't upgrade our PC's very often.

#4 We have several testers looking into this issue currently but all info currently points to it being isolated to the all too common nVidia Driver incompatability.

#5 This, like most issues, does not occur to all people and all configurations but we will work with nVidia to address this problem like we have in the past.

#6 Gunny, do you have nothing better to do than to constantly waste my time?

Madmatt

[Battlefront.com]

As to the "obligation" concept...

When a person buys a piece of low cost, entertainment software there is NO warranty beyond meeting the stated platform specifications at the time the software was originally sold. There is absolutely no obligation for software makers beyond that. Or as the Warranty in the CM manual clearly states, the software is sold "as is". If video card companies don't know how to code up drivers, or OS companies don't care about backwards compatibility, that is not our problem. The purchase price of the game does not magically give us the resources and knowledge necessary to code around other people's mistakes.

OK, that is the Big Picture reality. Now, as folks well know Combat Mission underwent MANY patches. Very few of the added features were necessary to make the program itself run according to its original specifications. Although we were under no obligations to make the hundreds of improvements beyond that, we never thought twice about it. We wanted the game to be the best it can be, so of course we went about patching the game's functionality. Hardly any software maker I know has show such an interest in customer support. But there comes a time when we must pronounce it "done". That time was some 8 months ago.

As time marches on and so too does the software and hardware available to the consumer. Like dozens of great games I have played in the past, at some point if I upgrade my system CM will cease to work. It is as inevitable as the sun rising and setting. The only question is WHEN will someone other product do something that will render CM unplayable. It might happen for everybody at once, or it might just be for some people with some configurations. All of this is outside of our control.

Now... if XP came out a couple of months after we released CM, and we found the game was at fault for incompatibilities, you bet your sweet King Tiger we would bust our humps to make sure things were fixed But 1.5 years after CM's release, when the problems are NOT A RESULT OF OUR PROGRAM... well... we aren't the ones to yell at. It doesn't matter if we are more approachable, we aren't the ones who messed things up and therefore aren't the ones to make fixes.

Yes, I know the immature and rather muddled thinking of a few doesn't mean the majority of people don't understand what I have just said. However, I felt the need to state the obvious. I suppose I hope there is a chance that even those who live in utter darkness can be led to the light. Or at least understand that it exists. But then again, some people aren't worth the time it takes me to blink

Steve