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As SC2 gets closer to release, I'd like to raise a point that might be minor to some, but it's important to me.

That is the music that goes along with the game. The music for SC is nice, but it's very poorly "performed" (synthisized). If that music is kept for sentimental value I'd like to see it at least re-recorded with a modern instrument.

I also think there should be different music if the Allies or the Axis win.

But even better, I think, would be some first-rate music. Some obvious choices would be Shostakovich (Fifth Symphony, Seventh "Leningrad" Symphony); Bruckner; Wagner (Siegfried's Funeral Music); and perhaps Beethoven's Ninth Symphony if the Allies win.

And some "period" (American big band swing, British, Russian and German songs/marches) would make the game "feel" more like it were taking place in the 1940's.

These touches might make the history buffs feel a bit more like the game were actually more of a period piece.

Does the "plastic" sounding music in SC bother anyone else?

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I'd prefer not having music at all, or at least an option that allows the player to shut it off and have nothing at all coming out. I've got all the works you mention on my hard drive and prefer listening to it there, or on my CD player.

Hubert said at some point that SC2 will have this option. I especially hate the click sound; I didn't like it back when everything was mechanical, now that we can do things without those annoying noises, why have them forced upon us. It's like WP programs that force you to listen to loud typewriter sounds -- well, maybe I'd prefer to listen to Bach while I'm writing?

What I don't like about Game music is, regardless of how well it's done, it becomes boring after a small number of games.

The only computer games whose music I liked at all were Lords of the Realm and the original Civilazion II tracks.

-- But if we do have music in there, I'd defer to your expert opinion and have to say even here that I like your choices. smile.gif

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One of the things I like about HOI was that you can mod the music to suit your tastes...while there was no Nationality specific music, you could at least have your own playlists....

World at War has dedicated music for each playable nation which you can replace with your own mp3 files...that would be the ideal for SC2, though I would settle for the HOI playlist method if need be......

My playlists for these type of games gravitate towards soundtracks such as Patton, Is Paris Burning?, Battle of the Bulge, Longest Day, ect. and a little Wagner never hurts....

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At Wargames and History, (link in my signature) I started a thread on Music for Wargaming and suggested things like Prokofief's Alexander Nevsky cantata, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture and Beethoven's Wellington's Victory along with almost anything from an Anton Bruckner symphony.

Along the way I made the following remark and my friend Comrade Trapp said, well ...

Most of them are classical and most of them are German.
Yeah, "classical"......

Probably more like Horst Wessel Lied and Panzerlied. tongue.gif

:D:D

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Music and sound are crucial. I have set up a little wargame office in my home. I can throw in A Thin Red Line, Enemy at the Gates, a lot of music really depending on the front and what not. But where I think I've gone over the top is I have an extra DVD player, so when I want better sounds I can throw in Patton, Stalingrad, Saving Private Ryan or any war film I have and listen via headphones to add to the noise of war. For this game any John Williams I think shall work, Lord of the Rings and any war movie soundtrack. So the ability to create a multimedia realm when playing a game is key.

Heck, this game might really stretch my multimedia ideas to the limit. Just think, switching DVDs out depening on what front I'll be dealing with. And when Der Untergang comes out and I start losing as the Germans I can throw that in.

Thanks,

Rono

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Well, most "classical" music that would be appropriate for a war game will be 19th or early 20th century orchestral music--and that means German or strongly German-influenced music. But the soundtracks to war movies are composed in the STYLE of 19th century German orchestral music.

JJ: Alexander Nevsky would have some great stuff for SC.

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Santabear,

True! I've always loved that piece and didn't think I could enjoy it any more than I did till I recently bought the Fritz Reiner 1959 CSO recording of it -- really incredible, especially the tuba solos. The same conductor and orchestra do a similar job on Pictures at an Exhibition recorded about that same time and again the tuba solo is fantastic. Funny how something like that can be so important.

I'm not sure what exactly makes for good wargame music. After writing a thread on this at a wargame site and a thread on music for writing at a fiction site I realized I listed many of the same pieces at both! :D

Some songs from the war itself might also be good:

Lillie Marleine (popular in both Germany and England!)

Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Company B

Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition

The White Cliffs of Dover

... many others, mixed in with the classical music.

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The Criterion Collection have both Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible (Pts 1 & 2) available together in a set.... though the DVD set is not cheap, Prokoviev's music has never sounded better in these films, as previous editions sounded like the orchestra was enveloped in cray paper...

I know we have veered a tad off topic, but I have been twiddling my thumbs around here, waiting for some more official news!.... smile.gif

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JP

True, the old soundtracks from the movie versions of those movies, especially Nevsky, really grate on the ears. I think what you're talking about is the remix that was made in the late 80s. They tried doing the same thing with Disney's Fantasia but it didn't work out as well.

The only thing I don't care for about the Reiner recording of Nevsky is the lyrics as sung in English instead of Russian, but that's a minor issue.

Off topic, on topic ... On something like this I figure the topic is where it is and there's no way to control it. :D

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JJ- you spoke of Lords of the Realm 2- this is where my game name came from. In Lords1 there was a computer player- the white earl that didnt make it to the Lords2 game. Getting back to the topic- you said you liked the music - did you ever hear the disco music hiden in the wave file. Look for the setup2 file and play it. BTW some of us still play that game online and there are more than just me playing SC from that gaming community.

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Earl,

Just listened to it, what a riot! :D

I've just finished listening to Scroll 1-2-3 & 4 wav files, which are the melodies players hear most often during the game. Very good pieces of music, as is the battle theme with a chorus. I like having a full orchestra and chorus instead of synthasizer sounds as some games use, but more than that something is added when the music is actually good. Lords has a good period touch to it, I've always had a vague medeival feeling from it. :cool:

Thanks for telling me about those files, really enjoyed that setup2, reminds me of Monty Python! :Dsmile.gif

-- I only played one or two games of Lords1, which was DOS. There were some things about it I liked, including the sheep idea, which wasn't carried over either, it remained behind with the Earl of White!

One of my nephews played Lords II a lot and he really enjoyed the comments made by the computer players in their excellent voices. I wonder how that would come off in a WWII strategy game -- SC having voices depicting FDR, Churchill, Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin! I think Goebels would also need to be included. ;)

[ April 19, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

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the tuba solo is fantastic
That is Arnold Jacobs and he is a legend among brass players. He lost a lung, believe it or not, and had to learn to breathe very effeciently. Here is what he says:

"My approach to music is expressed as Song and Wind. This is very important to communicate a musical message to the audience.

"This approach is one of simplicity as the structure and function of the human being is very complex, but we function in a simple manner. When we bring it to the art form it becomes very simple.

To get back on topic: Whatever music is chosen--and there are many good choices--I hope that it is recorded at DVD quality. The music in SC1 just seems like a last-minute addition, and is such low quality that it impairs the experience.

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Yes!..Interjecting Vocal Rhetoric from the leaders would be a very nice touch!

Imagine, being the German Commander surrounded at STALINGRAD!...then to hear Herr-Hitler...urging the ARMEE to hold on until relieved!.

In this game it would be facinating to take on the role of one of the Major-Player Generals in the game.

If you should fail to please your 'Master' you could be fired or just put up infront of a firing-squad!.

Stalin ordered the taking of KIEV by a certain date...i think 'April 1st/45???'...this battle cost 400,000 lives from both sides...yet...STALIN had a time table that was to be met...or you might dissappear!.

The battle for BERLIN cost the Russians alone around 400,000 casualties.

It would be great to hear them giving their 'INSANE' orders...and then trying to oblige them as commanders in the field had to do!.

Perhap's include a few clips from their speeches to boot as well!.

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Earl,

That thought of yours operates on several levels -- each of them give me the chills! :D

Our conversation also got me to reinstall Lords II & Siege Pack and start up a game. I'd forgotten how much fun it is. smile.gif

Santabear

Thanks for putting a name to that tuba virtuoso and it's a very interesting account. I'll try and find recordings that feature him, though of course the tuba isn't generally a solo instrument; which is what made him so exceptional. I've heard countless recordings of Nevsky and Pictures and the ones with Reiner and the CSO and Arnold Jacobs on tuba are always the best. Reiner, of course, is generally a sure bet to have left behind a great recording. Except, ironically, the 1812 Overture which we were discussing. His version is abridged and run through as though he were slightly embarrassed at having to conduct it. Which is okay, there are great recordings of the piece by other conductors while he left us with the definitive Bela Bartoks and much, much more! smile.gif :cool:

I agree about SC sound and so have many others. I can't listen to it at all. As it can never really be turned off (the clicks and other things remain regardless of the setting) I turn the speakers off and listen to CDs.

Retributor

Please, honestly, you don't really want that! :eek: :D

I like the idea of playing as the omniscient head honcho but also hearing (possibly seeing either through good animation or archive footage) the real historical figures.

The game that came closest to that, as I recall, was SSI's DOS Major Battles of the North Atlantic 1939-43. It would splice newsreel footage into the game. As the German Admiral in Chief you'd be on the verge of giving orders when you'd find you couldn't and the message would read the Fuhrer's using your ships for his planned invasion of Norway. Meanwhile you'd be updated on events with that great film footage. My machine never gave me the sound but I's bet it must have been quite good. Unfortunately the AI wasn't (where have we heard that one before? :D ). Heavy Cruisers would act like torpedo boats on hopeless missions against three or four BBs instead of simply sailing away at their own higher full speed.

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Jersey John and Retributor,

Leaving the licensing issues aside, although much of this should be in the public domain , I too would like to view photos of or play audio or video footage for key events, provided that it did not happen every time (say it happens 1 in every 5 games, 20% per game). Or perhaps it could be included as an option button (Play Audio or Play Video) in the Pop-up box related to that event.

Example:

France Surrenders:

Perhaps you hear the radio broadcast of the French surrender in the railway car.

OR you see a photo of the railway car where the French surrender was signed included in the pop-up that announces the French surrender.

OR you see short B&W footage of the surrender ceremony.

Paris is liberated:

Perhaps you see B&W footage or a Photo of the crowds cheering US Troops entering Paris. Or perhaps you hear the radio broadcast of the event.

------------------------------

Adding a jpeg image to the event popups would probably be the easiest to implement. The hard part would be ensuring that you have the right to use those images in the game.

[ April 20, 2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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JJ/Edwin/Retrib: Since the premise of SC is to have the player fulfill the role of FDR, Churchill, Stalin or Hitler, I don't think we'd want to hear orders from one of them.

I had thought more of JJ and Edwin's ideas of integrating audio vignettes into the game (radio broadcasts, etc.) The notion of incorporating some video is even more exciting!

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Edwin & Santabear

1) Exactly -- we're playing the supreme honcho, so who would be above us issueing orders?

2) What I'd like to see along the lines of video/audio would be things like Neville

-- Chamberlain's address that he has received no word from the German Govt and Britain is therefore in a state of war with Germany.

-- FDR's Day of Infamy (and maybe his 1940 speech promising to keep the United States out of the war! :D )

-- Hitler's Victory Dance (actually doctored newsreel footage by the British, but very good).

-- The weeping Parisians as von Richenau's 6th Army marches past the Champs ...

-- Also stock battle footage, dogfights, warships, moving tanks.

*** If the player doesn't care to see them at all, as Edwin suggested, an option to turn it off. Also, the option to turn end the clip anytime by left clicking the mouse.

Music

Santabear is extremely knowledgable in this area. I have no idea how much sound would be needed or what kind Hubert would consider, but I'd go with whatever suggestions Santabear would come up with.

-- If a synthasized clip conveys the idea I'm all for it.

There are tons of music not mentioned so far that would be great for the game, much of not even having anything directly to do with war.

For example, Igor Stravinsky's Rite of Spring(among other exerpts from his works) Felix Mendelsohn's Hebrides Overture (used in synthasized version by a different game) and numerous other snippets by a huge range of composers. During the actual war the opening bars of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony was used as the V for Victory signal!

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Santabear is extremely knowledgable in this area
*blush*

There is a lot of pre-existing (recorded) material to choose from, with a tremendous amount of the music being PD (public domain, and therefore royalty-free). If recorded performances were used, there is the potential of rights fees to the performers--but I bet non-"P" recordings could be found.

I would just be glad to hear what Hubert or other game designers have in mind--if in fact the project has progressed to the point that this is an issue.

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