Variable Victory Conditions

[Dan Fenton]

Before beginning a game, I would like to have the option of choosing from a list of victory conditions, ranging from limited to absolute.

For example, why should the Axis have to conquer the US to win the game? If France, Russia and the UK have been defeated, can the US really rise up and destroy the Axis by itself? Frankly, if the Axis has defeated just France and Russia, it is very likely to win at that point. If Germany has been defeated, is Italy really going to conquer the world by itself?

I would suggest, as an option, that players be able to choose from a list of more limited victory conditions to end the game. This would allow a player or players to spend time playing more games rather than spending time mopping up. I would also like to see a resign option, so that the computer could register a win or a loss between two players.

[JerseyJohn]

I agree with Dan on all his suggestions, they're very good and sensible.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, agreed. A point system would be cool too. Count up victory points at certain times so games won't take 20 hours to finish...well, in scenario mode instead of always Campaign game.

-Legend

[With Clusters]

I would like to see a "level of victory" somehow included too, with more detail than the old SC1 point system (where you could actually rack up more points by delaying the final victory, allowing you to kill more enemy units - the only way points were scored).

Speed of conquest and/or territory controlled should play a major part in that.

It would encourage people to continue a losing game, if only to achieve a more tolerable level of defeat. In a tournament, for example, a victor might get, say, 3 points for "total victory", but only 1 point for a "minor victory". Or something along those lines.

[Edwin P.]

I agree, all great ideas.

The resign option would be great, so that either the Human or the AI could surrender to the other side.

I would like to see the Computer should maintain a Win/Loss Record for each AI level or AI Personality to aid in evaluting player developed AI scripts.

[Lars]

Could the US have won all by itself? Yes. It just would have taken longer and I think you’d have to reconsider what “victory” means.

Even if Germany had defeated Russia and Britain, the industrial arms race they were engaged in against the US was hopeless. Just because you have captured all those resources doesn’t mean you have the manpower to put them to productive use.

Since we don’t have a Japanese theater, maybe a (very large) increase of US MPP after, say, 1946 to reflect a Japanese defeat and letting the clock keep running might be a interesting variant.

As for Italy, if Germany goes down, there should be a popup to ask if you’ll accept their surrender, because the writing is on the wall.

[rleete]

I'd like to see a variable surrender (randomized) for minor countries. If I've decimated 7/8 of their forces with only trivial losses, they should surrender even if there is one remaining corps in the capital. Would you fight on, surrounded and outnumbered 6 to one or more?

Also, the computer should surrender the game if the situation is hopeless, like suggested above.

[Lars]

Better would be if some of those minors switched sides, as they did historically.

But I don’t want the game to just end with an autosurrender. Sometimes I want to deliver a proper crushing, so make it a popup option.

[rleete]

Originally posted by Lars:

But I don’t want the game to just end with an autosurrender. Sometimes I want to deliver a proper crushing, so make it a popup option.

Exactly. I played Empire deluxe for years, and it always surrendered if the situation was hopless, but gave you the option of continuing to play until the last unit was eliminated. I've always wished for that feature in wargames ever since.

[pzgndr]

Before beginning a game, I would like to have the option of choosing from a list of victory conditions, ranging from limited to absolute.

SC2 will have this, sort of. Victory conditions are defined as scripts. Not only are these editable, but there's a startup screen where you can go through and toggle various scripts on/off.

The default Axis Major victory for now remains the same - conquer all Allies. Otherwise the game will stop at whatever lesser condition is defined. That may be OK too, so you could edit the Major Victory(s) accordingly.

Regardless of these generic victory condition scripts, the game should have a detailed points summary at the end. Or whenever you want to terminate the game, which is different than SC1 which really left you hanging. So players could decide to go through only to the end of 1943, end the game then, and determine victory on points. That's my understanding.

Some of this is still fuzzy. The multiplayer features are still in development. Hubert has ideas about building in some sort of bid system, timers, and other stuff based on SC1 feedback, but how players set all this up and then determine victory at the end of a game remains to be seen. So these are good ideas. We'll have to see what happens!

[With Clusters]

Sounds good.

But how will the point system in SC2 work? If I recall, in SC1, you got one point for every enemy unit destroyed (whether it was a corps, and army, or a carrier, all were one point), and that was it.

This led to some unusual outcomes, such as the victor being able to score more points the longer he took to achieve final conquest. Look at it this way, a defender is not killing many (or any) attacking units, he's merely throwing more potential "points" in the enemy's face, trying to hold him off.

I hope the new scoring system has more to do with time (in terms of when victory is achieved) and space (what territory has been conquered, including minors and colonies and such), than in the number of enemy units killed. If a person lost a game, he should be a bit more proud if he's forced the opponent to eliminate a lot more of his units, than if he was quickly mowed down with only pathetic resistance.