Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Edwin P.

Any news on the Battle for the Atlantic?

Recommended Posts

Good map of the convoy routes and the larger ocean, now I have a reason to send my Axis subs to the South Atlantic.

Question - can the allies allocate MPPs going to Russia between the Northern Convoy route and the Route via Iraq, or is the total split 50%/50%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As you likely know from your own readings, the Med convoy war was quite different than the "Battle of the Atlantic."

Not so much submarines attacking convoys and troop transports, as it was... naval bombers and small patrol craft and destroyers and the like. Though, surely, the GErmans DID send some U-boots to the Med later in the war.

Well, I'd debate that point. I think the Atlantic just got all the press.

And, no doubt, Lars, you'd have some valid points.

For instance,

Malta's "10th Flotilla"

AKA: "the Malta Striking Force"

Sank ~400,000 tons

Of enemy shipping in the 16 months

From summer of '41 until conquest of Tunisia.

One boat in particular - the Upholder,

Sank 10 cargo ships, 3 troop transports,

2 tankers, 2 destroyers, a trawler

AND - 3 submarines,

Commander Malcolm Wanklyn,

Earning the "Victoria Cross,"

Making all of Scotland proud. :cool:

OK.

The EARLY Brit Subs were too large

For the shallow Med waters,

And were mostly used for transport

Of everything from men to sausages.

Later, yep, there was quite apparently

Some better results from the NEWER models

Then introduced.

**However,

I would yet stand behind my assertion

That - a MAJORITY - I would venture,

On the order of 3 or 4 times the total tonnage

Sunk by the RN Subs,

WAS sunk by other patrol craft,

Whether those be naval bombers

Or DD's or smaller PT-boat type vessels.

In the game, UK does NOT start out with a Sub.

They shouldn't.

Though, the game player has one as

An allowable build, and sure, IF he bought it,

He would require a target

To acquire... other than surface ships.

So. A supply line from Libya to Italy

Is a decent idea.

IF it is not in the default game,

THEN - you can put it in.

Like I said,

It is VERY easy to create that convoy script.

Following the guidelines (... there is

a clear & concise "blueprint" for EVERY script)

It would take you, oh, less than a minute? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Question - can the allies allocate MPPs going to Russia between the Northern Convoy route and the Route via Iraq, or is the total split 50%/50%.
EP,

That route you've noticed is FROM Iraq

TO Britain,

Assuming they are able to conquer/subdue

The fomentors of "Iraq Coup" once it occurs.

[... BTW, that "coup" doesn't automatically award Iraq to UK... they gotta go in and duke it out. Thing is, they ain't got many field forces to spare. So. Yet another "choice" the player has to make.]

We do not assume that the valuable OIL

Is "automatically" transferred to UK

On some sort of Magic Carpet, no,

It's gotta be conveyed.

And so, another target for the U-boots.

UK can send to Russia (... per slider, as with

Lend Lease from USA) as many MPP's

As they care to.

There is a ceiling %, naturally, but that

Arctic Convoy is still another!

Tempting target for the boats. :cool:

Now,

Since Iran/Persia is a viable country

With a Capital - Tehran,

Then... IF Russia

(... UK and Russia conquered Iran

together IRL war)

Would invade and defeat that country,

They would realize some MPP benefit, though

There may well be some diplomatic penalty.

Well, when isn't there,

Following aggressive activity?

This action,

With resulting economic increase, would

Then "replicate" the historical Lend Lease route

Through Iran to Russia. smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me maybe Britain should start the game with a sub. I just don't want the lower half of the map to never even really enter the game like it did in SC1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Lars:

I just don't want the lower half...to never even really enter the game.

Being married, this should be familliar to you by now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Lars:

I just don't want the lower half...to never even really enter the game. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> rleete's rejoinder:

Being married, this should be familliar to you by now.

</font>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As originally posted by Lars, seriously:

Seems to me maybe Britain should start the game with a sub. I just don't want the lower half of the map to never even really enter the game like it did in SC1.

OK, not to worry on that score.

In recent PBEM with Bill, we discovered that there is PLENTY of desert action.

(... bring yer goggles, suntan oil, pith helmet, camo netting and endless canteens of water)

Since he is on vacation just now,

I can dare say... I sent HQ Rommel

And 21st Panzers and 5th Light

Down to Libya,

And finally managed to strike deep

Into Egypt.

By surrounding and decimating his BEF

Which he had sent as reinforcements.

He should have planned ahead and sent Armor,

A couple units if possible,

Since that whole area in North Afrika

Is NOW as it should be - shifting sands,

Wide open and akin to fluid maneuvering

On the high seas, as many commanders

And historians have aptly described it.

Well, it was our first game, and I made

All sorts of mistakes as well.

Like failing to buy a naval bomber early.

Fact is, the "Med Wars" are exciting

And X-tremely unpredictable. smile.gif

The key to the land war is Tobruk,

As it often was IRL war.

Without it, the Axis just has too long

Of a supply line.

[... and, "Malta Effect" may well reduce supply even further... it's a great way to replicate

ALL of the various patrol craft, including subs, that interdicted Italy -> Libya convoys... sure, UK CAN buy a sub - LATER, when they can afford it, and when they actually had some modest successes]

DAK/Desert HQ better strike swiftly, as I did,

But the longer they dither around,

Less likely they can oust the stubborn Aussies

And Brits out from Tobruk.

They MIGHT venture shore bombardment BUT UK may well object, and bring the well screened Carrier into play.

Sure, it's WELL WORTH the effort in SC-2,

Since you have - not only Syria,

And that crude oil in Iraq, but also Iran.

Now, you can more easily plot a thrust

Into southern Caucusus region

(... no longer being sytmied by that narrow

mountain range)

And, man o man, you oughta see all them oil-wells located there!

Insofar as UK goes,

Not only do they need a tank regiment

(... might have to re-enact the Tiger Convoy

and risk that "guantlet" through the narrow Med)

But... air forces, and as many land units

As can be mustered... once Sea Lion

Is not on the table, but of course.

And, likely will have to bolster

The naval contingent as well, since Italy

Does - and did have a potent Navy,

Especially the newer Cruisers - which were

Probably the best in the World

At the time, other than Japan's.

All in all, yep, you are going to be pleased,

I do believe, with how the Med Theatre plays out. :cool:

[ August 22, 2005, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Any chance he's going to come back at ya with Operation Torch?

Ah, Lars, that first game... she ist kaput.

Next game, we'll go clear to the end, more than likely.

Torch WILL happen, no doubt and that is a problem

For the GErmans (... and, Italians, insofar

as they will move forward at command, LOL) since they then gotta shift forces to the West.

First, though, Battleaxe and Crusader and other

Vital desert wars.

Anyway, by the time we get to all of those,

It'll likely be presented with screen shots,

And you'll surely see what I mean

When I talk about... VERY volatile

North Afrikan, and Med Sea Wars. :cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So say goodby to the Axis cookie cutter solution? or will the Allies now have the cookie cutter solution.

I presume that its too early to tell.

Question: Why torch, why not just a simple invasion of France - or do you feel that the Allies need to make the Axis spread his forces out before the D-Day invasion of Europe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First things first, EP.

I doubt VERY much there will be ANY

So called "cookie-cutter" solutions

In ANY particular time or place or situation.

There are just TOO MANY variables now. ;)

Question: Why torch, why not just a simple invasion of France - or do you feel that the Allies need to make the Axis spread his forces out before the D-Day invasion of Europe?
Consider Churchill's dilemma, mostly brought down on his own cigar-smoke-wreathed head:

1) Siphoned off some of the most desert hardened troops to send to Greece. Oh, maybe half returned? Most agree that he COULD have taken ALL of Libya IF he hadn't been enamoured of his... WW-I inspired "Balkan solution." :eek:

2) Neglected the entire Far East, IE, Singapore (... thought impregnable), Burma, and India, in order to bulwark North African redoubts.

3) While, first having to deal with a minor perturbance down in Ethiopia (... well, we don't have that area on our map, BUT... could be re-presented in an accurate fashion with a script).

I would suspect that, finally, UK will NEED that pressure from Algeria east-ward. If not in FACT, than certainly as ever-potential possibility.

USA is slow, SLOW to build up now and they have to make MANY sorts of choices, having to do with what to buy, what to research, what to send via Lend Lease, etc, so there can hardly be any EARLY invasion of France.

No, their best play may be to gear up enough so to do the "historical thing" and land the craft @ Casablanca and Oran.

Then again, there will be exactly as many strategies as there are SC board members, so, over time I imagine we'll see hundreds of permutations on S & T. :cool:

______________________

**BTW, I neglected to mention the rest of the rationale for Axis to somehow neutralize the RN Med fleets in order to get sufficient forces into North Afrika.

There are OTHER MPP's to be gained, in the form of the 2 cities of Cairo and Amman (... part of UK controlled Jordan).

And, most critical, perhaps... control of the Suez Canal so that Axis might send Italian Navy - assuming it hasn't been soundly pounded, out into the Atlantic (... recall that the movement arrows go BOTH WAYS now).

It's a great way to avoid taking on the Generalissimo Franco supported Spanish Army, there in those imposing mountains of Iberian peninsula. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In SC, invading North Africa would have been foolish. But in real life, you'd do it for the same reasons the Allies did.

Need to open a second front to take the pressures off the Soviets, but not ready yet to invade France. Also nice bonus of putting pressure on the junior partner, Italy. So put those existing divisions to work instead of waiting for the D-Day build-up to be complete.

Gonna be fun to put a Strategic Bomber down there after you clear out Libya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Desert Dave:

It's a great way to avoid taking on the Generalissimo Franco supported Spanish Army, there in those imposing mountains of Iberian peninsula. ;)

You better avoid him he can easily cut yer balls off if u try to do something foolish. I just hope Spanish force is properly represented in SC2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bye bye to cookie cutter? Hmmm...you folks forget about Yoda :D

There will be always some sort of cookie cutter ... basically, a cookie cutter is an optimized strategy and there will always be ppl trying hard to optimize things, right? smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As originally posted by hellraiser:

bye bye to cookie cutter? Hmmm...you folks forget about Yoda

There will be always some sort of cookie cutter ... basically, a cookie cutter is an optimized strategy and there will always be ppl trying hard to optimize things, right?

Yoda?

You mean... the truly refined Old World mind,

Steadily, and relentlessly committed ?

So that, say, Beethoven's 9th

Is - as if... played out bit, by bit

By little piano plinking bit?

The... perfect plan?

Ever realized, and without sly perturbances

From them quantum-quirky inner & outer spheres?

LOL,

Yeah, he'll do just fine. ;)

99% win percentage?... nah, I VERY

Seriously doubt it - perhaps? 60%?

As said, there are amazing! amounts

Of variables, and no-one, I repeat, NO

ONE person can possibly consider,

Refine, and integrate EVERY single aspect

Of this here new! SC2-Blitzkrieg! yep,

I tell you true. ;)

Although, from what I have gathered, he

Wins because his opponent... loses.

Due to... rash impatience and wild schemes

That always - sure, they must become

Half awake dreams.

Due to... spontaneous play, for the fun of it.

Due to... risk-taking in the hopes

Of upsetting/unsettling... the Master.

Forget that, you rakes and rackateers,

And instead consider

SC resident Zen Monk... who very quietly, very

Slowly... would whisper

Into the receptive ears:

"I shall study this butterfly-mind, all

The day and all the night long.

Decades, if it is necessary.

Why do you feverishly quest

Second to second, hour to hour, from

Some rain silted flower

To a mechanical wrest & grind,

(... these are equal in potential

PHYSIC... of power), ah, so,

Without FIRST understanding

The immense spaces in between - ALL there IS,

And all that was, and also what will be, yes,

Between all of that and

Nothing much - can even be seen? " :cool:

[ August 25, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll have to wait and see.

If he studies the game as relentlessly as he did SC he might just find a way that is the BEST way to play Axis and Allies.

That's what I hope this game brings, that no one strategy becomes the defacto one for either side.

If it does, I hope HC will be in "patch" mode :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Blashy:

Being an ex submariner myself I was quite disapointed with the uboats effectiveness in SC

Really? tell me more.

Funny thing happened over at the silent hunter 3 community. One of germanys old uboat aces in world war 2, Jurgen Oestman, is 92 years old and is really into sub simulators on the computer. He said he used to play scenarios in which he himself participated and said "dammit they get me almost everytime. The game is harder than it was in real life hahaha!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well here is an example of the prowess of submarines.

We were on workups with the US Navy.

It was our sub and old oberon class sub dated 63-65 vs. 2 Canadian ships, 1 specializing in subhunting. 3 US ships, 1 of which was their latest and greatest and 1 oil supply ship.

Our task was to sink the supply ship.

We had a square grid of x amounts of kilometers to opperate in and had to snork for 30 consecutive minutes within a 4 hour window, I think it was 4 times in a 48 hour operation.

All of this on an old sub. Guess what happened. We not only sank the tanker undetected but we sank 2 of it's escorts later on as we ran after hiting the tanker.

Imagine when you have to search the Atlantic and you don't even know when your opponent will snork.

And that is why a measily 6 sub wolfpack (from a rotation of 50) in the begining of the war almost singlehandedly crippled UK into a non aggression treaty with Germany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the production delays, when is the payment due?

(When ordered, when finished, in the middle or a combination.)

In other words, can you start a project you might not be able to finish? Does the future planning requirement also require you to compute your future incomes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full unit cost is charged when ordered. Once the unit arrives, it initially starts at 50% morale which represents an additional mobilization delay to get up to 100%. There really isn't any mechanism in place to cancel units in the production queue and get a refund. You can always disband upon arrival and recoup some cost but you really don't have much control once you place an order. This is all just a simplification which only adds an optional production delay without any additional complexity to the accounting process. Players can turn it off and have the same system we have now - instant builds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...