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Hi there

I keep reading that the AI was the last issue Hubert spent time on. Everytime somebody posts

a comment about how easy something is, like sea-lion, the answer is well, not against a human player. Problem is I and i think many with me only play vs Computer. My descision to buy is based only on a good AI. Will the AI be worked on the coming weeks so it will be challaging & surprising?

Killer Tomato

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Honestly, the AI is the last of my worries, the AI has been Hubert's biggest priority the past weeks and he's made it clear it is not a finished product.

I'm playing 2 games vs. the AI now and I'm still making comments in the beta forum and Hubert is STILL working on the AI as we speak.

I play 50% AI and 50% vs. players. I want a challenging AI.

The AI will not get better ... IT IS getting better as I write this.

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There will most likely be a few patches along the way with AI and event script enhancements. There's a lot more stuff that can be done! It would have been selfish to NOT release the game and spend a couple more months working on the AI, yes?

Also, expect to see modders trying their hand with the AI and event scripts in customized campaigns. With the SC2 Editor, all this is possible.

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People that insist, they will ONLY play a game, if they have an AI to kick around, YOU are the reason, for a lot of the problems in the wargaming industry.

This will seem harsh, but, really, there isn't any other way to say it.

If you REFUSE to find an opponent for Hotseat mode, and you REFUSE to find an opponent for online option play style, then, you likely should STOP buying computer wargames, because ALL of them are going to SUCK more or less universally.

In case no one has noticed, AI technology is dim at best. That is the horrible honest truth. Game makers will usually defend their product, but that makes sense, why say negative things about one's product.

The AI in SC 1 or 2 will ALWAYS seem dumb, and really, there is no magical fix, no patch that Hubert can pull out of thin air to change that.

If Hubert actually COULD make a dynamic thinking AI, the man would be instantly more wealthy than Bill Gates.

Because, we could actually USE machines that think.

Toaster, yes master, make me two baggels, lightly browned to setting preference 3, and time this so they arrive in 5 minutes after my shower. Yes master, but I should mention, this brand of baggel requires 30 seconds more at setting 3 to achieve your desired browning. Thank you toaster, allow for this then please.

Get it, there are NO AIs worth talking about right now.

Ever run through I have played so far, of the D-Day demo, has gone the same way so far. It's because, the AI isn't really in a position to think. It's just following pre programmed steps.

For those of you, socially challenged, unable to find a human, for what EVER reason, be it willing or unfortunate, stop waiting for the quick fix.

Play the damn game hotseat, and just be both sides.

It's not a revolutionary concept. Most of us board gaming era wargamers, did this all the time. God mode omnipotent knowledge of the board, did NOT make Advanced Third Reich unenjoyable for me, EVER.

True, I usually used only MY best ideas. I sometimes finally found a human opponent that broadsided me with new thinking.

But, if you won't buy SC2, if the AI is not truely brilliant, then fine, walk away.

I plan on playing the AI when I just don't care if the game has all the challenge of a game frogger.

If I want a REAL challenge though, I will not ask the AI to play at all.

Games with no hotseat mode, now THAT is bad game design choice. Games with no internet competition mode, even worse game design choice.

Games with a stupid AI, not at all out of the ordinary.

The ONLY AIs out there, are likely just games suitably complex, that you can't master the weaknesses in the AI as easily.

If I have offended, it was not deliberate, nor intentional.

But whining on and on about the AI, it's as pointless as the whining of us grognards and the need for a hex.

Actually, the hex is at least easier to employ, and able to perform up to the full expectations placed on it.

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Most people judge a game based on it's AI
Some do, some don't. But yes, a good AI is an expectation. FWIW, I played two campaign games against the AI last weekend. There are some strengths and a few weaknesses. The Battle of the Atlantic is more challenging now than it was in SC1 vs the AI. The Med still needs a few more AI scripts implemented. And there are a couple of other minor issues that need some attention.

Is it perfect? No, but it's pretty good now and with just a few adjustments should be very good. We're also starting to consider some AI handicap scripts, things you can toggle on for either Axis or Allied side to introduce some variants or other randomness.

Will the AI be worked on the coming weeks so it will be challenging & surprising?

Yes! BUT...

Bear in mind that playtesting only completed so many head-to-head games and there are still some possible play balance issues and who knows what that players are likely to find in the first several weeks after receiving the game. So some of these issues will need to be addressed and resolved along with enhancing the AI to play a decent game with whatever other changes are made. Ideally, we should eventually have a very well balanced game AND an AI that can mimic winning human strategies. That's the goal at least, and hopefully we'll get pretty close with SC2. :cool:

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JAWG: That was a bit harsh ...

I get very few opportunities to play other than solitare. Occasionally a PBEM but, not that often.

You see, I have a full time job, a family, and numerous responsibilities. Not a lack of desire,but a lack of time. So, my advise is, play while you are young, when you finally get to the age where money is not a big issue [especially as how little SC & SC2 cost] time is my most valuable commodity.

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Give me a break you A.I. people. How can you expect to make an A.I. to deal with all the possiblities? You're in dreamland, this isn't a chess game with deterministic moves which are the best to make.

If you actually played a real opponenet or had a friend to play...then you would know.

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Originally posted by pzgndr:

We're also starting to consider some AI handicap scripts, things you can toggle on for either Axis or Allied side to introduce some variants or other randomness.

Handicap scripts - good idea!

Perhaps;

For Axis AI:

5% that Vichy France Joins Axis when France surrenders.

5% that Turkey Joins Axis if Axis takes Karkov or Rostov

5% that Japan and USA resume trade, USA war readiness declines 25%

5% Turkey annexes Syria, Jordan and Iraq after France Surrenders

For Allied AI:

5% Japan signs economic trade package with Russia, Siberian Transfer occurs early.

5% USA signs peace agreement with Japan, this frees Pacific Command to send two carrier fleets, battleship fleet, McArthur HQ and 2 Marine corps to Egypt for training exercises.

Ideally, the scripting language would include a Player_Flag where 0 = all games, 1 = activate for Human vs. Allied AI, 2 = activated for Human vs. Axis AI. The default would be 0, activated in all games. Then the player would not have to manually switch them on or off. You could even have them linked to an AI level.

Example;

Beginner - 0% Vichy Joins Axis when France surrenders and AI is Axis

Expert - 5% Vichy Joins Axis when France surrenders and AI is Axis

[ April 07, 2006, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

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Originally posted by Justanotherwargamer:

People that insist, they will ONLY play a game, if they have an AI to kick around, YOU are the reason, for a lot of the problems in the wargaming industry.

This will seem harsh, but, really, there isn't any other way to say it.

If you REFUSE to find an opponent for Hotseat mode, and you REFUSE to find an opponent for online option play style, then, you likely should STOP buying computer wargames, because ALL of them are going to SUCK more or less universally.

In case no one has noticed, AI technology is dim at best. That is the horrible honest truth. Game makers will usually defend their product, but that makes sense, why say negative things about one's product.

The AI in SC 1 or 2 will ALWAYS seem dumb, and really, there is no magical fix, no patch that Hubert can pull out of thin air to change that.

If Hubert actually COULD make a dynamic thinking AI, the man would be instantly more wealthy than Bill Gates.

Because, we could actually USE machines that think.

Toaster, yes master, make me two baggels, lightly browned to setting preference 3, and time this so they arrive in 5 minutes after my shower. Yes master, but I should mention, this brand of baggel requires 30 seconds more at setting 3 to achieve your desired browning. Thank you toaster, allow for this then please.

Get it, there are NO AIs worth talking about right now.

Ever run through I have played so far, of the D-Day demo, has gone the same way so far. It's because, the AI isn't really in a position to think. It's just following pre programmed steps.

For those of you, socially challenged, unable to find a human, for what EVER reason, be it willing or unfortunate, stop waiting for the quick fix.

Play the damn game hotseat, and just be both sides.

It's not a revolutionary concept. Most of us board gaming era wargamers, did this all the time. God mode omnipotent knowledge of the board, did NOT make Advanced Third Reich unenjoyable for me, EVER.

True, I usually used only MY best ideas. I sometimes finally found a human opponent that broadsided me with new thinking.

But, if you won't buy SC2, if the AI is not truely brilliant, then fine, walk away.

I plan on playing the AI when I just don't care if the game has all the challenge of a game frogger.

If I want a REAL challenge though, I will not ask the AI to play at all.

Games with no hotseat mode, now THAT is bad game design choice. Games with no internet competition mode, even worse game design choice.

Games with a stupid AI, not at all out of the ordinary.

The ONLY AIs out there, are likely just games suitably complex, that you can't master the weaknesses in the AI as easily.

If I have offended, it was not deliberate, nor intentional.

But whining on and on about the AI, it's as pointless as the whining of us grognards and the need for a hex.

Actually, the hex is at least easier to employ, and able to perform up to the full expectations placed on it.

Rather harsh.

I have played a few games PBEM. Trouble is I just dont like commiting myself to them due to time constraints. I like to sit down when I do get the chance to play a game and have a good few turns at it.

So an AI is important to me. Fair enough it may not be as challenging as a Human opponent, but so be it.

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Originally posted by Jeff Gilbert:

JAWG: That was a bit harsh ...

I get very few opportunities to play other than solitare. Occasionally a PBEM but, not that often.

You see, I have a full time job, a family, and numerous responsibilities. Not a lack of desire,but a lack of time. So, my advise is, play while you are young, when you finally get to the age where money is not a big issue [especially as how little SC & SC2 cost] time is my most valuable commodity.

I wish I was young again too smile.gif

Been married 20 years now, so I guess that removes me from the "young category" hehe.

About the only "young" aspect left these days, is my youthful insistence I have to buy every wargame the walks past my view smile.gif

I really, I mean seriously, don't "need" SC2, but I can't seem to get the child in my head to shut up hehe.

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You may not be a "newbie" but you are a very self-centered person, like the aforementioned "legend" from the Great Northwest. I would not play him if he were the only person left on Earth to play! Happy to play you though Jeff. Tag

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uhh..I think you missed the entire point of what tomato is saying. The vast majority of people that play virtually any type of game wants and expects a worthy a.i., from RTS, RPG, to FPS. If a game comes out and receives horrible reviews it won't sell. Period. That combined with the fact that most people don't even care about playing online.

One of the most IMPORTANT aspect of any wargame is the a.i. And that is the beauty behind THIS game because the entire community has the ability to alter/edit what they want. What could be more perfect? So quit bashing people that might have a different opinion than yourself and go play online.

YOU are the reason, for a lot of the problems in the wargaming industry.

Nice...how old are you?

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Originally posted by Hopper:

uhh..I think you missed the entire point of what tomato is saying. The vast majority of people that play virtually any type of game wants and expects a worthy a.i., from RTS, RPG, to FPS. If a game comes out and receives horrible reviews it won't sell. Period. That combined with the fact that most people don't even care about playing online.

One of the most IMPORTANT aspect of any wargame is the a.i. And that is the beauty behind THIS game because the entire community has the ability to alter/edit what they want. What could be more perfect? So quit bashing people that might have a different opinion than yourself and go play online.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />YOU are the reason, for a lot of the problems in the wargaming industry.

Nice...how old are you? </font>

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Well, people have varying priorities in their lives and perhaps Strategic Command is enjoyable but not the top priority for some folks. Perhaps some people even ENJOY playing against the AI.

If we follow the logic of "you can't build a good AI so why try?" there's no reason to work to devlop anything. And if we're going to try to develop one, there has to be some level of criticism from the end-users. Maybe some of the "AI crowd" will be able to say "I was one of the people who helped the computer wargame industry create good AIs."

Of course human opponents can dream up all kinds of things that AI can't, but not every general who fought WWII was Rommel, Patton or Manstein. There were unimaginative, incompetent generals back then, too.

And it's not like every human player is really creative and interesting to play either. I'd prefer that newbies play agianst the AI until they understand the game and are comfortable with the mechanices of things before playing against humans and making dumber mistakes than the AI would.

AI is a good, reliable punching bag that can really refine a gameplayer's technique. It's an important part of a computer wargame to me, and if SC2 did NOT have an AI built in I would not buy it.

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FYI for the AI to be at its absolute best when shipping, the game would IMHO have to be delayed at least 6 months and for us beta tester to have 2 games a week going vs. the AI to keep refining it.

All that time the rest of the game would be 100% functional (player vs. player) and just be sitting there waiting to be played.

I would prefer the game be out and have people like Edwin who seem to be enthusiastic to work on the AI have the ability to do so. Now we'll have faster AI advancements with Hubert and others working on it.

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Hi guys

Lots of response:), some of which i knew were coming ( Rambo ). Anyway, I do play alot of online games, just not these type of games cause they just take too long. Anyway i am glad the AI is getting the attention it deserves. My hopes are on Edwin!

greating and happy gaming

Killer Tomato

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Ah, the multi-players. Desperate to make converts of us AI only folks with hectic schedules/other games to play so they have someone new to play against. Then stating their case in such a way that I say to myself "That geezer's why I don't play multiplayer.". The AI is a nice break from humanity.

A decent AI also sells the game to me, along with gameplay, historical timeperiod and how the game looks.

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Benpark.........

I agree so much with your sentiment.I play against my brother when I get to see him because he is as chilled out as me but the AI (especially if it is consistently tweaked in the light of playtesting by the experts(!?) will be fine for me).

Dont need the multiplayer "keep the newbies out" crowd personally but I guess its horses for courses.

Cheers

Ian

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