Rambo VS Liam AAR: Best VS Best

[Liam]

Alright, this is the Skinny, me and Rambo loaded up the Demo 1 side as Liam as Axis 1 side Rambo As Axis... 1st Game: Listen careful folks there is huge Pointers and this is the game broken down with bugs and all. Hopefully Rambo adds his two cents after work

[Liam]

Broken Down into Campaigns that way I recall, long game ended last night Late Summer of '42

Poland:

Germans, encircle Corps, Cut of Supply to most of Poland, Take Warsaw 2nd early, but Poland doesn't surrender till late, because of Excess units. Germans suffer minor casaulties, and operate West

France-Benelux-Denmark:

Bad Weather until Spring of '40 and no Early planned Offensive, Germans maneuver for best position. Benelux and Denmark fall easy, France assaulted all out... Crushing defeat as the French do not reteat from the Maginot or border with Benelux. Germans lose one Army, take heavy losses, no Air Duels. Inexperienced French Leadership but all over good Tactics and bad weather make it Late Summer till the Nazi Juggernaut Polishes off France.

1 Army Loss, but despite this, we engage the BEF in Normandy, killing it and badly damaging a R.N. Carrier... John Rambo learns his lessons about attack hit and withdrawl and do not occuppy a Port I can reduce even while a Ship is on it

North Africa:

This is a Steamroll once more, Runstedt Afrika Corp, storm across Egypt with Their Italian Allies occuppy it, cut off a British Army and destroy it. No losses and entirely decimate the RAF in the region, all the rest of the Egyptian defenders retreat to England via the Suez before cut off. TransJordan slowly falls under the Swatika...

Tunis:

The hardest battle yet fought for the Axis, 1 year of constant air and land bombardment until Axis forces are freed up from Jordan, Allied French Corps serving there hold out the longest of the War so far. We take the Capitol though finally with Luftwaffe and Italian Air Support.. Italian HQ revealed and also a Pitched Naval Battle is fought, Italian Sub engages and badly damages 2 British Battleships, this is effectively the end of the War in the Med for the Allies... Tunis finally surrenders to the Italians

Greece:

Tough Cookie with Axis air, falls along with amphibious Invasion by Italian And German forces.

German Forces Operate and manuever east to Fight the Russians.......

Neutral Report: Norway is Neutral, Germany favours a Free and Independant State there... As does Yugoslavia, noticing the caregiving attitude of Uncle Adolf. Who practices a tolerant ViewPoint upon his Sphere of Influence.

Battle of the Atlantic:

A worthless sideshow, 3 U-Boats all sank easily by the Allies, barely burdened Allied Cruisers.

USSR:

5 Airfleets, 4 or 5 Armored Armies, 7-8 Armies, 5 Corps and an assortment of Axis Minors assualt...2 German Battleships 2 Cruisers

All the frontline cities fall like little Dominos, Any attempt at a Russia defensive is Crushed, Minsk-Leningrad-Kharkov-Rostov Line with a Pocket pushing toward Stalingrad and the Volga... Sevastopol the only strongpoint 1941

1 Russian Armor smashed up on the Mines in the South attempting a counterattack, superior German Experience beats Superior Russian Technology in Tanks. German has level 0 Armor, USSR up 1 or 2.

A german halt toward Moscow, just 2 hexes away, Leningrad Surrounded in 1941 Fall... Finland Joins, in the South another halt toward Vorenzeh... Mud sets in, Winter sets in, during both in the South the Pocket aiming toward Stalingrad is cut off by a Strong Red Army counterOffensive, Siberians Transfer. 1 Germany Army destroyed, 1st since France. Germans Rally, with ingenuinity, protect nearly 3 Axis units cut off East of Rostov, regroup... All over the front, the Winter is costly. The Russians have time to regroup, strengthen and launch counter offensives along the North and South Army Groups...

The South hardest hit, Partisans cut of supply, Winter Supply hurts our Fighting men... but we hold!!!

In the West: UK attempts to invade Normandy, 4 Luftwaffe Fighters, 1 Italian Fighter and Italian and matched Wermacht Troops crush the attempt. 1 German corps lost but British expelled from Europe. Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst, Gniesnou all lost but heavy damage inflicted upon the Royal Navy. Heavy damage upon their land forces as well. UK Carriers level 1 LR 1 Fighter tech.. We pounch them and the UK is out of the Fight for at least a year refitting. Tirpitz and Bismark return from the Pitched battle in the English channel unscathed, having sunk 1 British Cruiser. Not the Hopes of the Kriegsmarine with much higher Morale but France is Liberated Axis.

1942:

With his Siberians and the USA entering the War:

Operates back East with Air and then Italians--

Germany launches a 2nd attempt at domination of of the Caucasus and Stalingrad-Volga region... Russian Armor, Armies several behind rivers hold out counter attack, it is a disaster. 1 German Armor is massacred, 1 Germany Army, 1 German Minor Army, couple of corps. Russians reveal level3 Infantry Weapons... Germans still at level1... Finland is invaded, and frontline Fins crushed, German Air is the only thing holding the Russians from Helsinki, killing of a Red Army in the Isthmus badly damaging a few others...

Few battle exchanges in Army Group Center, Von Manstein is operated there with Reserves... All and all the Russians have superior technology and now the Front is long with the Volga, Germany Retreats back, to the Leningrad-Minsk-Rostov Line... Digging in, Awaiting Winter..

West:

Ireland is invaded, the Swiss are quite angry.

Brest again is Battled over, Germans leave it undefended only 1 US Corps falls there... Axis invade Vichy. Capitol falls, Algiers likely next.

Final Summise:

Russian tech, supply, Terrain has been VERY difficult to manuever in or this game would be over, weather has mostly been crap for me this whole game and fairly good for John, John has made good use of his units, behind Rivers, in Marshes, forcing Axis to fight where they're worst in that Region. IN the West we've totally dominated... Our Air is the best in the World, very important is that the UK has suffered a lot of losses and had to reinforce a lot of units we have kept her a gimp, that is slowly changing. For the First time Axis are now the underdogs in Numbers, and tech as such revealed:

Italy:

Mobile 2 Inf AT 0 Infantry Weapons 1

Germany 1 1 1 Inf

Air Jet1 LR1

Tank 0 mobile 1

UK: Air 1 1

USSR:

Air 1

Armies 1 3

Tank 2 I think now

Jets 1 or 2

USSR Experience level lifted during our weak Late Summer Early Fall '41 Offensive, I think the decided factor as Hitler had done, we did not give a knockout blow to the Red Army in '41... a Big Error..but had we been cut out of supply in Winter in there could've been the opposite. I had a hard time fighting through marshes, Mountains to get to the HeartLand of Russia. 80-90% of all Russian Terrain Axis are fighting on is in Marshes, forests, Mountains through Rivers. The Open Real Estate near Moscow we've left alone very well defended, and the Volga-Caucasus Region the main concentration of the best Red Forces.

We've a strong belief that the Russians have a Strong Industrial tech due to the heavy amount of units they keep pouring out of their factories

This game is up in the Air, and control of it's key but sadly with Weather and the huge Fronts not the deciding factor as it was in SC1.. We've built MANY units, enough to cover every tile along our frontlines, so me double stacked contrary to what the betatesters had told us, lost few as well. This has been a conservative well fought real first time for John and my 2nd sorta game... I'm not winning but I do not think the Russians alone can defeat the Reich...

Let Rambo add his two cents, this game has gone on for 10-14 hours is now Oct 1942

P.S. the Other Tech Goodies I'm not revealing God knows what Rambo and I have hidden our Pockets

[ April 17, 2006, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Liam]

Views:

Neutrals used as both spotters and prepared for War is Really Warping the game... On Both ends me and Rambo have used Neutrals to block attacks and to blockade whole navies, invasions units, really really gay... Navies, Transports, Amphibious Transports pre-War Entry is bad.

And Tech toward Diplomacy is worthless... It needs to be raised a bit to make it worth it. Only Iraq has any serious odds here... Yugo never even entered has sat at 77percent all game..

Air is powerful though Carriers are not what they were. Land based Fighters are the Backbone of the Western War. Mobility and Infantry Weapons are deadly! Especially on open terrain or where you must manuever, outdo tanks early and you do not have to research two seperate categories.

Capitol ships banging resources and not destroying or harming Units on them is a pain, the damage they recieve makes realism!

The Russians be able to pull back and prepare is hard to cope with, and since the Axis run out of supply I think that if the Russians abandon the front line, partisans and Scorched Earth should be lost! It shows the Ukraine, Belarus, etc... that their Motherland didn't care about them and it allows the Axis time to really wreak havoc instead of getting locked up in the Middle of Summer offensives.

Naval Combat, and the damage inflicted is warped. Morale is a difficult factor to calculate and you'll find constant engagements and no real outcome. Except if you're really low on Morale or Effectiveness.

Tech Is KingKong... Very deciding factor... so far as I can tell there needs to be rules regarding Amphibious Transports, Armies assualting strength 3 Corps should not be so weak...and the constant use Amphibs should be limited by certian Powers.

Plus Raised Penalties for Minors raised in the wrong place. Right now the Diplomatic Sector is a sleepy one because a few percent just doesn't do it in time to make a difference in most cases.

All in all you cannot neglect the fact you have few units as say Italy, you cannot Corp Swamp. And as Germany you need plenty of Land units for the East and some for the West, balanced... UK is a Gimp as she should be with a level of Air and Naval Power... US I haven't witnessed yet. Russia is almost too powerful with her early tech possibilities... I think that should be cut back if the Allies cannot force a Hole through Normandy-West anywhere they've failed Russia shouldn't make up for their shortcommings. Russia with her terrain can hold out vs anything with a competent General. with Weather, it is safer to say Sea Lion is a better route to success... That or just sucking the Russians and Western Allies dry and holding the "key citites for victory"

this is a conservative view, not an aggressors view

[Blashy]

There is no tech for Diplomacy, you have to invest in the diplomacy of X country to hopefully get a hit.

The % are 5% per chit, at 50mpp that is pretty cheap AND be aware of counter diplomacy, it can make it seem as if nothing is happening.

The game has realistic odds now (diplomacy and weather) which no longer guarrantee everything will go one way by always using the same strategy.

[Blashy]

Also, you got really unlucky in tech to be so outnumbered. I've only seen it once myself.

As for Russia, lets not forget that it was defeating the Axis pretty much all by iteself, sure it was due to some major blunder by mister dumbass Hitler himself (hammering away at Stalingrad instead of cutting of Caucasus). But still Russia was a mean machine.

Amphibious attack on STR 3 countries is fine, those countries had nothing, when you have an enemy landing with 3 times more troops that are twice equiped in firepower, you'll loose. The cool thing is the possible diplomatic consequences. This is where some changes might be needed. For example, if Spain becomes Axis, I've always taken Portugal with never any consequences, overaggression should be frowned upon by some neutral nations, so maybe the % chance of this occuring needs to be increased.

I would look at diplomatic factors before anything else. You can take a weak country, but consequences could occur.

[Liam]

Dear Blashy, not one player I've heard so far out of 6 has said anything positive about Chits in Diplo. In fact not 1 has ever used them for anything, they'd work maybe on a country pushed to 90% in cost benifit Ratio.I haven't bothered...the only Country the Axis could move is Spain... What am I going to do put in 250 into Spain and wait 3 years? Also same for Iraq? When would it pay off, Iraq only has 1 oil at half production I'd be better off Invading a Minor and taking the hit. Never would... I never bother to look at the diplo screen after USA enters because it doesn't matter. We don't..... Too many other areas that need your MPPs, like Infantry Tech... As are Subs, pretty worthless, because the Royal Navy doesn't have anything to do after Sea Lion Threat is gone, so if you do not directly threaten the Isles Subs are fodder.

Only with Pure luck or against inept opponents do any of these areas counts. I'm just learning also I already can see this clearly

Originally posted by Blashy:

There is no tech for Diplomacy, you have to invest in the diplomacy of X country to hopefully get a hit.

The % are 5% per chit, at 50mpp that is pretty cheap AND be aware of counter diplomacy, it can make it seem as if nothing is happening.

The game has realistic odds now (diplomacy and weather) which no longer guarrantee everything will go one way by always using the same strategy.

[Tagwyn]

Liam: Do you really think the partisans whould quit if the Red Army falls back? Really!!!?

Amphibious assaults must be adjusted, perhaps through tech. Allies, as you know, had a serious shortage of landing craft, needing them in two theatres. Can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry launching amphib attacks. Can't have problems with neutrals like Liam and Rambler experienced. Tag

[Liam]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Also, you got really unlucky in tech to be so outnumbered. I've only seen it once myself.

As for Russia, lets not forget that it was defeating the Axis pretty much all by iteself, sure it was due to some major blunder by mister dumbass Hitler himself (hammering away at Stalingrad instead of cutting of Caucasus). But still Russia was a mean machine.

Amphibious attack on STR 3 countries is fine, those countries had nothing, when you have an enemy landing with 3 times more troops that are twice equiped in firepower, you'll loose. The cool thing is the possible diplomatic consequences. This is where some changes might be needed. For example, if Spain becomes Axis, I've always taken Portugal with never any consequences, overaggression should be frowned upon by some neutral nations, so maybe the % chance of this occuring needs to be increased.

I would look at diplomatic factors before anything else. You can take a weak country, but consequences could occur.

Well, you're right, you better make certian you bring your reinforcements for Minors, I got caught on 3 or 4. With an army, 2 corps amphibing a strength 3 corps surviving these minors were ill equiped.. The consequence IS NICE

cookiecutter is cutback, but not enough in some cases. This is the only place where Diplo is advanced, you really can hurt yourself if you don't watch what you're doing.

Actually Reds must have gone Heavy into Production Techs plus I couldn't kill many of them. Maybe 7 or 8... He's pulled all out of the Front.. Forced me to engage him where he wanted me to... I should've maybe taken Moscow but I do not know the value of doing it... there are A LOT of Red Corps, that has hurt me and my tanks have not been that valuable.. he has 3 total vs my 7 Allies vs Axis.. and no tech has hurt me. I do have chits and I have been very very cautious in spending pre-Barby

[Liam]

Originally posted by Tagwyn:

Liam: Do you really think the partisans whould quit if the Red Army falls back? Really!!!?

Amphibious assaults must be adjusted, perhaps through tech. Allies, as you know, had a serious shortage of landing craft, needing them in two theatres. Can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry launching amphib attacks. Can't have problems with neutrals like Liam and Rambler experienced. Tag

Tag, why would Partisans arise in Polish Occuppied territory?

Similarly Belarus, not even faithful to the Motherland, they didn't even post 1 corps to defend them!

I'd feel gimped by Joseph Stalin, and as many Ukrainians did, 300-400 thousand of them, look it up I'd serve Adolf...Partisans are people, they are common, they do not look after the greater good they just hate their oppressors

as for Amphibs, guess it makes it cost. Has to cost or people will amphib everything near the end where Diplo nolonger matters? right

[ April 17, 2006, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Blashy]

Well Liam, wait until you play enough games and you see some Diplomacy taking effect.

I'm in one game right now where my opponent just got hit bad for not paying attention to Diplomacy, that alone will surely cost him the game.

You can't expect to invest and get something in return, Diplomacy is always a gamble.

You'll find it just right when you play a game and your opponent gets a couple of big hits in Diplomacy, you'll be happy it's not a "sure thing" in every game as it would become tiresome and unrealistic, the whole game would be up in the air everytime.

Spain for example, say you spend 500mpps to get it in, how much does it cost for 2 armies, hq, tank 5, AF 5, 3 corps and 2 cruisers. 500mpps for that? I'll take it anyday. Even 750.

[Liam]

Blashy

I suppose I'm forgetting the open door to invading Portugal, killing Gibraltar, and freeing the Italian Fleet

[Wolfpack]

I've had Spain turn in about 5 turns once, so that would be the uncommonly good side of the spectrum. Generally it's more worth it there because the percentages seem larger than for other countries. In Spain I've had it jump by over 25% or so, where other countries it seems like 10-11% is about the max. It's definitely not a bad investment. Especially since it opens up Gibralter for an attack, so if the allies are trying to put up a defense in Egypt, the "Gibralter effect" can help.

[Blashy]

The % are the same for all countries.

8-15%, if you do get a hit, you get the 8-15% increase, plus there is a 5% chance you get a breakthrough and get an additional 20-30%.

So you can get 45% in one turn for ANY country.

Since I've been in the beta, I've had this occur about 5 times. Really not often considering the odds. But just enough to have unknowns screw with someone.

I had it occur once for Russian, +40% in one turn for Russia joining early and got another 20% in two hits. Axis missed their DoW by 1 turn and only had a half prepared force.

You never know in this game anymore

[ April 17, 2006, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Liam]

I wasn't aware the Jump was so drastic, I should read up a little better. On a Major I can see where the chits if "lucky" could be a Major Factor especially to say an Axis who slowplayed and was cautious and then Russia jumps her bones and she is ill-equipped

It's an X factor definitely though an Expensive Risk..What isn't, the Tech you get is all a risk, I've had games in SC1 5 chits in a category a dozen times and it remained at level0 for ages and never got beyond level1...and even won at that LOL

Originally posted by Blashy:

The % are the same for all countries.

8-15%, if you do get a hit, you get the 8-15% increase, plus there is a 5% chance you get a breakthrough and get an additional 20-30%.

So you can get 45% in one turn for ANY country.

Since I've been in the beta, I've had this occur about 5 times. Really not often considering the odds. But just enough to have unknowns screw with someone.

I had it occur once for Russian, +40% in one turn for Russia joining early and got another 20% in two hits. Axis missed their DoW by 1 turn and only had a half prepared force.

You never know in this game anymore

[Konigs]

Alot of the partisans in European Soviet Union were soldiers who were cutoff from thier units and hid from Germans instead of surrendering. They had heard about the treatment of POWs. Stavka snet commisars and other support to these soldiers. When the partisans slaughtered/mutilated the German soldeirs, the Germans slaughtered the villagers, this drove the local populace to the partisans. So I agree with Liam, there should be some penalty to the pull back and hide strategy. The germans would have adevacned even Quicker and Stalin would not have been able to pull out his heavy industry and rebuild it in the Urals, and there would have been no base soldier/partisans to start the resistance movement. Lets face it, the local populace treated the germans as liberators....

[Sombra]

@Blashy: Regarding diplo: your argument regarding the mayor powers and Spain makes sense to me. One question: Is there any other benefit from minor countries besides Sweden sending convoys etc. does it matter at all if swiss is mad at me?

@Liam: I agree that these neutral transports running around for spotting and blocking landing spots is "BIG cheese" . Hellraiser was quite :mad: :mad: because I tried it to see if there are any negative side effects. IMHO neutral countries should not be allowed to put troops in transport if there activation is below 90% (perhaps not even move ships) or perhaps if a neutral ship / transport hits on a sub , transport could be sunk with a random chance for a diplomatic effect (Lousiana effect)

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Sombra:

IMHO neutral countries should not be allowed to put troops in transport if there activation is below 90% (perhaps not even move ships) or perhaps if a neutral ship / transport hits on a sub , transport could be sunk with a random chance for a diplomatic effect (Lousiana effect)

Interesting suggestion.

[Slapaho]

In my 1st HvH I am allied and got Russia to join early (there were no Germans on the border ) but I also had the Russians pulled back. I cannot see how Russia can possibly survive any other way?

[Sombra]

Any reason at all for the rusian to NOT leave the border? Delayed activation etc.?

[Slapaho]

I garrison all cities with a corp except Leningrad which has an army. Russian readiness was affected by my diplo chits (I had 4 from UK, 2 of which were 'used') and my opponents DOW on minors. I did not see any other increase in readiness by Russia and the final straw was my opponent declared war on Greece then Yugoslavia. OTOH I am not sure that pulling back has a negative effect on Russia readiness.

I notice that entrenchment does not begin until 'Prepare for war' or actual DOW has occurred, which even more encourages a deep defence line in Russia, to allow good entrenchment, to allow those corp sacrificed in the first few cities to be bought back cheaply and arrive in time and most importantly for me, to induce the Siberian transfer asap.

My defence line is Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Stalingrad and Rostov.

[Sombra]

Hmmm, again perhaps a small change. Entrenchment vould be possible when activation reaches 50%-70% activation. Including the minor nations (would although serve as anti cookie cutter and would make a forward defense more feasible) I can´t see anyone trying to defend Rusia with a forweard defense right now. => Attackers have the advantage, no entrenchment for defenders etc.

[ April 18, 2006, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Liam]

Game Continues:

1942: Germany is booted from USSR, several German Armies are whacked, few corps as well... The Only thing going for the Germans is the Luftwaffe...

Vichy: Surrenders to the Axis

Finland: Surrenders after a prolonged battle and an entrenched German Tank is destroyed.

Norway and Sweden: Are both invaded by the Allies, proving to the World who the real bad guy is, no real negative effect Diplomatically after I'd hit Vichy...Swiss just looming on the horizen nowhere near joining.

Baltic: Denmark is liberated and the Tirptiz and and Bismark are sunk, but Italian fast acting Troops boot American and British Commands from Europe, Copenhagen held...

USSR 1943: After the Dreadful Winter offensive Germany retreats with her superior Mobile Units away from Minsk and Kharkov... Leaving them open and the two mines in the South. Remarkably with our Elite Luftwaffe we manage to take Leningrad and inflict Heavy casualties in the North meanwhile far superior Red Army Units in the South keep crushing at Germany...

D-Day Second time: Normandy breakout attempted, failed... Brest still in Allied hands

USSR still has tech advantage level2 tanks, level3 infantry weapons, level2 antitank... This is making it particularly hard after a year of research we cannot compete... The Line now stands from Odessa through the Prippets Baltics into Leningrad... Russians pull back in Fear of the Mighty Luftwaffe... Hitler hides in his Bunker fearing that this may be the end. In the West the Allies are now finally Strong Enough to be a Threat in the East we cannot crack the Front.

Russia and Germany Equally have lost around 23-24 units... We outnumber them, they're superior in experience now and technology. Winter is comming again soon, 1944 will be upon us

Long Live the Reich

[hellraiser]

"In the West the Allies are now finally Strong Enough to be a Threat in the East we cannot crack the Front."

Well Liam, I guess there is a clear indication who you should fight first now

Anyway has Rambo used properly his bombers in west? Axis may have a hard time operating units and having decent supply if allies know to use their bombers

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Sombra:

@Blashy: Regarding diplo: your argument regarding the mayor powers and Spain makes sense to me. One question: Is there any other benefit from minor countries besides Sweden sending convoys etc. does it matter at all if swiss is mad at me?

@Liam: I agree that these neutral transports running around for spotting and blocking landing spots is "BIG cheese" . Hellraiser was quite :mad: :mad: because I tried it to see if there are any negative side effects. IMHO neutral countries should not be allowed to put troops in transport if there activation is below 90% (perhaps not even move ships) or perhaps if a neutral ship / transport hits on a sub , transport could be sunk with a random chance for a diplomatic effect (Lousiana effect)

1- Getting the Swedes on side for anyone is not bad, 2 armies, 1 AF, 1 cruiser and 1 corps. If you link Finland with Leningrad, lots of MPPs.

Basically, open up the editor and have a look at what countrie has what and see if you feel it could benefit you in some strategy.

2- 90% can't move for neutral ships is a good idea. I would permit Italy to do some port to port beause of Africa (also a good idea).

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Sombra:

Hmmm, again perhaps a small change. Entrenchment vould be possible when activation reaches 50%-70% activation. Including the minor nations (would although serve as anti cookie cutter and would make a forward defense more feasible) I can´t see anyone trying to defend Rusia with a forweard defense right now. => Attackers have the advantage, no entrenchment for defenders etc.

The reason people are starting to move the Russian units back is because of hindsight.

Stalin was told by his Generals he would be attack and to prepare for it but did not listen. And so many of his troops were at the border unprepared.

Stalin started to win vs. the Germans when he started to let his Generals take the command decisions.

Always look at hindsight. You won't make all the same mistakes. The game starts on the first turn historically, but from then on we have hindsight and we will try and not make the same mistakes.

With that said, I've had armies on the 1st 5 cites with level 3/3 and it severely slowed down my opponent. I would not have done with level 1/1.