What if....France Became Neutral

[Lars]

Edwin, yeah, Vichy France, if anything, is under modeled in the game. Germany should get all those mpps from Vichy territory too.

I always play with the Free French option on, just to make things harder, but there's no way Britain got as much help as shows up in the game from the Free French.

I hope you're writing all these ideas down, cuz I really want to see your variant when the game comes out.

[JerseyJohn]

Lars,

True enough. I agree there was a strong fascist element in France and a strong element in Britain as well, including it's abdicated King.

I'm probably a bit too sympathetic to the Vichy officials. I've never felt Petain was any sort of saint and he'd have been a poor choice to administer a country even if he hadn't been so old. After WWI he wasn't particularly good for the French Army either.

I don't know if Vichy was the most collaborating, but yes, in any arrangement like that there will be scoundrels and opportunists rising to the high offices. I don't know how much they could have effectively held back on but you're right, they didn't make any great effort to do so.

In SC-1, regarding the Free French rule, I always use it too because you're right, Britain is under represented and the Middle East situation is another thing (in the basic 39 scenario) that is clearly wrong. Making it worse is that the AI never reiforces it!

-- So, at the end of this, I think we've found some valid reasons why a French government replacing the Third Republic might well have gone along with a German Alliance. Incredibly switching the country completely into reverse!

-- -- I'd like to see it as an alternative, a variant in the main scenario and also an option that be chosen specifically if the human wants to explore that possibility.

Along the way, relevant to this discussion, I'd like to see the Free French (and Polish) situation made more realistic.

[Lars]

Well, after thinking about it more, if you really want to script something, script the arrival of the Free French instead of the dump we get now.

They should show up randomly through out the game after the Fall of France. But increasingly as time goes on, of course.

Start from the 7,000 disorganized men they had in July, 1940. Maybe a token DeGaulle HQ?

And perhaps throw in a Cruiser Fleet at some point to reflect when the British let them back on their interned ships.

Then ramp it up to over 400,000 men by the end. Perhaps a free Army, Tank, and a Corp or two by '44.

All nice little pop-ups for the Allied player. Might help balance the whole thing.

[Edwin P.]

With all the changes in Sc2 the game may not need any scripting for play balance. Keep in mind that air power will be much reduced, Russia will have two production centers, and there will be limits on the operational movement of units.

Although I have a long list of ideas for new events, I want to see how the game plays before introducing them. Besides HC and company might have incorporated some of them into SC2.

[ May 04, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Desert Dave]

Well, after thinking about it more, if you really want to script something, script the arrival of the Free French instead of the dump we get now.

Lars,

This is certainly possible.

In fact, ~120,000 French soldiers escaped to Britain along with the BEF at the Dunkirk evacuation.

So. You could have a scripted event where a Corps would have a random chance to appear in Britain, oh, approximately 3-6 months from May of 1940. Assumption being it would take that long to outfit and prepare them for combat since they'd left all their equipment behind.

Next, you could a have the Suffren Free French Cruiser appear at Gibraltar or a USA port sometime in Summer of 1942, or even later. Historically, that ship was involved in ASW duties in Mid to South Atlantic.

Also, say - Summer of 1943 or so, another Corps and perhaps, HQ DeGaulle could be placed in USA.

Or any combination you would like.

All of that is possible with the "unit script," which can also be used for such other historical military reinforcement events as... "free Ukraine" or "Polish and/or Canadian armor" or "ANZAC in Egypt" or "Nationalist units" in Europe for the GErmans.

Alternately (or, in addition to) you could modify the existing "Free French script" by lowering the trigger percentage... so that there is a VERY small possibility of ANY French ground or sea units surviving.

[... or, you could simply omit this event script when you start the game, as with SC1; ANY of the new scripts can be left "un-checked" in this way]

Set it low enough, and very few game players would risk sending French Corps hither & yon, or choose to disband any units.

How this will finally appear in SC2-Blitzkrieg! is not absolutely estabished as yet, so you may well have - in the default game, precisely the "Free French" event that you'd prefer.

[ May 05, 2005, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Lars]

Thanks Desert Dave.

Sound's more and more like SC2 is going to be fantastic.

Done yet?

[Korut Zelva]

Hehe, I'd see pop-up strenght 1 De Gaulle HQ in UK after france fall

and he'd amount to nothing until he gets like a Leclerc tank unit

[Lars]

btw, on the 120,000 French that got across the Channel. They didn't exactly all flock to DeGaulle's side at once, despite repeated broadcasts. Morale was rather shot so they were more refugees than an army at that point. Can't say I blame them.

You'd have to rate DeGaulle at more than a 1 just for getting that lot organized again.

[JerseyJohn]

In total there were hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen and Poles who found their way either to Britain or Egypt to fight with the British.

The Eighth Army recieved a large number of Polish soldiers who arrived as organized units from the USSR -- the vast majority of Polish troops remained behind to serve with the Soviets.

Other Poles -- tens of housands more -- made their way dirctly to England, mainly via France, where a lot of them fought after Poland fell.

Of the French, General LeClerc (sp?) made an epic march with his command across Africa to join the Eighth Army also. Later he commanded the armored division that offically liberated Paris (symbolic, American troops had already cleared the way -- not meant as a putdown, only to put the event in it's true perspective).

Neither the Poles nor the French all flocked to a single leader. The main Polish leader (sorry, I don't recall his name offhand) died in an aircraft crash that many consider suspicious and to have been an outright assassination.

In Egypt they were grouped as The Free French and Polish Brigades along with the Jewish Brigade. But in reality all three groups had many times that many so the official brigade designations are misleading.

The combined numbers, again of both Poles and French, were huge. Handling them accurately in the game would be a challenge.

[waltero]

That Is all fine when talking about two or three player Game.

What about five or six players?

The possibilities would be endless!

If I was playing the french I might want to side with the Germans, Same with any country.

Hope it would be possibble..

[Korut Zelva]

Originally posted by Lars:

btw, on the 120,000 French that got across the Channel. They didn't exactly all flock to DeGaulle's side at once, despite repeated broadcasts. Morale was rather shot so they were more refugees than an army at that point. Can't say I blame them.

You'd have to rate DeGaulle at more than a 1 just for getting that lot organized again.

was not refering to his rating (what could it be? 6?), but the unit-strenght. UK got him, up to them to decide if it's worth renforcing it or just let it sit it there

I'm wondering about France HQ situation. Would it be preferable to have a "Pre-fall" Leader list and a "Post-liberation" Leader list.

I'm just saying that, I don't know if Waygrand, Bilotte or Gamelin were or not still in the picture after the liberation

[ May 05, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Korut Zelva ]

[JerseyJohn]

Korut Zelva

In 1940 Gamelin & Weygrand were in their late 70s or 80s which, by pre-war French Army standards was about the right age for the top general. I don't know when they died but they certainly wouldn't have been anyone's Free French choices. Billote was in his 60s and one of France's younger generals. He died in a car accident in Belgium after the German breakthrough at Sedan, which was a contributing reason to the ineffectiveness of the French withdrawl.

I think you've got a really good point about the French generals and I'd definitely think a pre and post fall of Paris HQ list for France would be very valid.

Of course, if France allies with German after it's fall, the old HQs would be the ones it would continue to make.

-- I don't understand why there wouldn't be Free French units even if the French Government chose to ally with Germany? I even think there should be Free French HQs buildable even if France switches to the Axis! The reason I say this is because these units in exile are actually a mix of different nationalities, probably more of them Polish than French. Also, I'm sure some Frenchmen would have chosen to leave their country after a fascist alliance, especially so when the political arrests inevitably began.

-- -- As an abstraction, even if the historical names aren't used, I think the old style French HQs should be 3 & 4 as they are now and the new ones should be 5 & 6.

[Korut Zelva]

I don't see the Axis France thing happening.

People can play individual countries, a player could play France and USA or USSR. What would happen then? As leader of the French could he refuse the axis offer or would he play on the Axis and allied side at the same time. :|

[Lars]

Originally posted by Korut Zelva:

was not refering to his rating (what could it be? 6?), but the unit-strenght. UK got him, up to them to decide if it's worth renforcing it or just let it sit it there

Sounds reasonable to me. Better have him pop up out of German air range though, eh?

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Korut Zelva:

I don't see the Axis France thing happening.

People can play individual countries, a player could play France and USA or USSR. What would happen then? As leader of the French could he refuse the axis offer or would he play on the Axis and allied side at the same time. :|

It would have to be a decision made by the computer.

In my opinion it would go like this in the two different types of games:

-- In an AI game that's simple enough, if the Axis is a human player he'd have the option of offering an Axis alliance instead of surrender and the computer runs it through a table to determine which choice the AI French would make. If they go to the Axis they become part of the Humman player's resources.

-- In a game involving humans vs humans, the victorious Axis player makes the offer and again it's the computer that decides after running it through a chance table. If France joins the Axis it's no longer under the control of the original human player, switched over to the Axis, I'd think it would now be controled by the German player (unless they choose the totally a-historical Italian conquest). The original French player either leads the Free French till France is liberated by the Allies, or he drops out of the game; if that happens, a liberated France would be controled by either the UK or USA, depending upon which of them liberated Paris.

[John C]

Sorry to be the bad guy here, but to me this all sounds like a lot of work with special coding, testing and balancing to essentially accomplish very little. I think if we created a list of all the things we might be able to accomplish with similar effort levels, this one would have to rank pretty close to the bottom IMO. Sorry.

[JerseyJohn]

John C

No need to apologize, we're only exploring possibilities without regard to whether or not they should be high or low on the list.

Some time back we even discussed Japan being a United States Ally against an Axis of Germany-Italy and The USSR.

I don't think Hubert gave us the big wink -- -- then and you notice he hasn't given us the big wink -- -- here either!

[Edwin P.]

Agreed, only exploring possibilities.

Some of the ideas may be relatively simple to implement.

Example:

Popup June 1941: Mr President, Japanese aggression against China continues. Should we embargo the sale of oil to Japan.

Yes - 75% Germany DOW USA on Dec 7,1941, 25% USA WAR Readiness declines 20% on Dec 7, 1941 as Japan agrees to withdraw from China.

No - No Effect on Game

[Retributar]

John C

I think if we created a list of all the things we might be able to accomplish with similar effort levels, this one would have to rank pretty close to the bottom IMO. Sorry.

I don't agree with your statement...because if France became an Axis Ally Germany could free up nearly 1,000,000 troops...including many armoured divisions etc. France might then also be supplying troops to further Hitlers cause.

That event alone ...barring all other efforts...could change the war in the Axis favour.

[John C]

Originally posted by Retributar:

John C

I don't agree with your statement...because if France became an Axis Ally Germany could free up nearly 1,000,000 troops...including many armoured divisions etc. France might then also be supplying troops to further Hitlers cause.

That event alone ...barring all other efforts...could change the war in the Axis favour.

In simple terms, there are really two options:

Option 1: This "enhancement" isn't balanced and has a huge impact on the game, in which case everyone will always choose this ahistorical option and this board will quickly be filled with comments about how stupid and unrealistic the game is. Assuming the game was balanced before this unbalanced addition, then the entire tide of the war and the game will shift towards the Axis creating additional unwanted consequences unless significant effort is spent to return overall balance to the game.

Option 2: This addition is balanced, in which case it has no significant impact on the game.

In either case, I can't see a valid argument in favor of this addition. Sorry again, but I stand by my comments.

[JerseyJohn]

John C.

You're talking about half an argument -- game balance. The game will come with an editor and it's possible some of us will want to include this option a homemade scenario.

Anyway, if it's really a bother for Hubert to create it none of us are about to lose sleep over something like this.

As for the arguments about it ruining the game (you mean the first two scenarios, 1939 & 40 only) if it's an option all the player or players need to do is not select it. That's pretty simple.

Regarding the idea, I toyed with it a few times in an SC-1 scenario but it doesn't quite work out properly. About the closest is to have France surrendered and Vichy as an Axis Ally. I'd really like to experiment with this option in the SC sequel.

But, as I say and as others of us have said, whether we buy the game or not won't depend upon this option.

Ahistorical? I've heard that term applied to practically ever idea since I joined this place 2 1/2 years ago. It's without meaning. Greece and Yugoslavia could just as easily joined the Axis and, after it's surrender, France could have as well. The tendency is to point to anything that hadn't actually happened and say it's ahistorical. Well, point to the things that did happen and imagine how unlikely they were -- if WWII hadn't happened and someone wrote it as a novel we'd all be throwing it against the wall saying it pure BS.

The main reason for playing these things is give our imaginations a little room to play around, not to box ourselves into a corner.

-- In late 1940 the USSR had an idea, if Germany gave them part of Norway including a warm weather port, they'd be willing to become an active Axis partner with hints they'd head south through Afghanistan and into India against the UK. Japan also had people thinking a Berlin-Moscow-Tokyo alliance would have been a great idea. It was mainly Hitler's racism that prevented it. When we discussed this at the General Forum a couple of years back there were twenty people to pop in and say it was ahistorical.

Okay, so let's have a game that will faithfully recreate WWII in Europe and go exactly the same way every time, no change in alliances and all that. That's one game I definietly wouldn't buy regardless of how good it is.

[SeaMonkey]

JJ, can you hear the applause, well said. Anything that is outside the realm of what actually occurred is "ahistorical". That means all the moves and the battles and the losses and everything to do with the modeled conflict have to follow the the historical script...ho humm...how absolutely boring...I'd rather just read the books.

[Retributar]

Three Big-Cheer's for JerseyJohn ...that's 'Exacatacally' the way i feel!.

YES!!!! i want as close to a historical game as possible...always...but even more-so i want a game that i can experiment with!...that's the main fun-of-it-all!.

I am now watching for the 50th time 'The Battle Of The Bulge'...and they make a good point...that if the German's had actually been able to get to Antwerp...it could have disorganized the Allies so badly that it theoretically could have forced the Allies to waste 18 months to re-organize themselves before they could properly push again against Germany!.

With 18 month's of time to play with...or even half of that...many of those amazing German Secret Weapons i had posted in "Something I Hope Will Happen in SC2"...may have come to fruition. That scenario could have changed the whole war!.

Would not any one of you not really want to explore that situation???. Of course scripting may be needed to kick-in to help the after-affects of such a realization be felt in real terms...such as mass surrenders of British & Canadian forces as well as the long-time frame to re-organize the Allied Armies!. 'Herr-Hitler' may have not been such a total NUT after-all.

I also want the option to have the computer randomly auto-select a raft of scripts and options to make each and every game different. I get tired of playing the same old stuff over and over again. I want to be surprised each time i play this game...i hope someday that option will be available!.

[Retributar]

Talking about Ports and supply sources... .

As in my previous post...if a port is lost...then the stranded Allied units on the coast of Europe should be forced to surrender...and not fight to death...to the last man!.

This should go for any Unit that has lost it's supply...they should surrender as was historically done 99% of the time.

Thats another thing i didnt like about SC1...Cut-Off stranded/isolated units were difficult to destroy...much more difficult than should have been...also, that surrender should take place instead of fighting to the death to eliminate a unit!.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey & Retributar

Many Thanks -- you've both got me walking on air now!

It occurred to me after posting that another thing is we're discussing what we'd like to see in this kind of wargame. Why anticipate what Hubert can or can't do? That's for Hubert to decide. Also, I'm sure we've all got faith in his judgement on these things. For all we know things we discuss here can end up in SC III!

Retributar

I like that idea about isolated units surrendering rather than being able to make prolonged fights to the last man. That did happen under some circumstances, such as with the Germans at Breslau and Konningburg in 1945, which were acts of true desperation.

A Dunkirk rule might be good, something where if an army is cut off on the coast but the owning side has control of the sea area between that army and a nearby coast, the owning player can recoup 3/4 it's MPP value the following turn. Something along those lines.

In North Africa units that were cut off had to surrender almost immediately. The reason wasn't so much ammunition or fuel but water. Presumably units cut off but in a city on a river -- 6th Army at Stalingrad, for example -- would have a greater ability to hold out. Those are only examples, I wouldn't begin to attempt a detailed thought on it here but I think you've brought up a good point that hasn't been discussed much, if at all.

It would make a great separate topic and I think Hubert might be influenced by the idea. Here's hoping you'll start it.