Missing and incorrect information on Finland

[Lerppu]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I need to go home and check since I have checked only briefly about captured Soviet tanks in Finnish use.

There should be:

- ISU-152 (one captured and lost 4 days later during summer 1944)

M.S.

Actually two were captured and put back to use, one was lost, but the other one survived, was used as a gun tractor after the war and is now in Parola painted with russian colours.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Zakalwe:

Of course, even the improved CMBB artillery model does not accurately portray the Finnish artillery practises, particularly in the Karelian Isthmus battles of 1944. Using a lot of TRPs seems to be the best, if inelegant, solution.

Zak

U cant change the arty model for a nation based on the battles in one sector.

[illo]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Okay guys, the stug will now be the later model with the MG

If you could provide some references to the Pz-IV and dates of the stug usage Ill pass it on!

Dan

Thanks dan!!!

[MjoLniR]

Hello everyone! I'm new here on the forum.

I think this is an interesting thread, but would like to know if Finland had any german 88mm guns and if they had, is there any 88-s for the Finns in the game?

The reason I wonder is because I have an HE 88mm shell (the brass-case is actually not the correct one for a HE-shell, but a AT-something). I got it from a guy who claimed it came from Finland.

[Kwazydog]

Just an update guys...

Apparently the stug dates were already fixed some time back for the next patch Any info on the IV's would be great though at this point.

Dan

[Kallimakhos]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zakalwe:

Of course, even the improved CMBB artillery model does not accurately portray the Finnish artillery practises, particularly in the Karelian Isthmus battles of 1944. Using a lot of TRPs seems to be the best, if inelegant, solution.

Zak

U cant change the arty model for a nation based on the battles in one sector.</font>

[Tero]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

U cant change the arty model for a nation based on the battles in one sector.

Hmmmmmmm....... The Finnish army fought in the "Finnish sector" exclusively. What you are saying is the American, British, Soviet and the German arty practises should be superimposed on the Finnish just because they were used in more varied circumstances. Sorry, can't buy that.

The Finnish arty doctrine was quite unique.

You can NOT apply your knowledge of German, Soviet, British and American arty doctrine to the Finnish arty. There are some universal things like ballistics and meteorological stuff but that is the extent of the similarities.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

Here's a doable suggestion for compromise, which might silence most of the justified gripes: give Finns TRP's say at 90% reduction in summer 1944. This will make Russians attacking Finns a hell, unfair and frustrating close to boring, if the defender knows what he's doing, you moan? Probably so, but realistic and historical.

Any support for this idea?

Throw in the ability to buy them in all types of battles and I think that should be at least an approximation of a workable abstracted solution.

Mind you, I can not see why they should not come at a reduced price all the way from 1941.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by MjoLniR:

Hello everyone! I'm new here on the forum.

I think this is an interesting thread, but would like to know if Finland had any german 88mm guns and if they had, is there any 88-s for the Finns in the game?

They were used in Anti Aircraft duty. Germans used them in AT role too because of their long range accuracy, but in Finnish landscape that wouldn't work, plus they are not very maneuverable.

[Tero]

Originally posted by MjoLniR:

I think this is an interesting thread, but would like to know if Finland had any german 88mm guns and if they had, is there any 88-s for the Finns in the game?

There were some but they were used in AA far behind the front line exclusively.

The reason I wonder is because I have an HE 88mm shell (the brass-case is actually not the correct one for a HE-shell, but a AT-something). I got it from a guy who claimed it came from Finland.

I saw one in action in 1986 during my service when it was used as a training gun in the coastal arty so the claim might be valid.

[patolino]

Btw if any Finns from the Helsinki region might shed some light on this... I know there are AA guns as memorials scattered around here and there. Any of you happen to know any addresses?

There's a 75mm gun in Tapiola, in the woods between Stockmann & residential buildings and the Tapiola insurance company building, by a path for pedestrians. Sorry for not knowing the address

Any others? I believe there's one in Lauttasaari, but where?

[Zakalwe]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

[QB]

Apparently the stug dates were already fixed some time back for the next patch Any info on the IV's would be great though at this point.

/QB]

Good to hear about the stugs!

I'm positive that none of the Panzer IVs saw any combat. They arrived too late to fight the Red Army, and they were not used in Lapland against the Germans. I'll nip down to library this afternoon and see if I can dig up some references.

Funny thing about those PzIVs - they seem to pop up in almost every tactical EF game. It's like a self-perpetuating myth...

Zak

[Nabla]

Originally posted by Zakalwe:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Apparently the stug dates were already fixed some time back for the next patch Any info on the IV's would be great though at this point.

I'm positive that none of the Panzer IVs saw any combat. They arrived too late to fight the Red Army, and they were not used in Lapland against the Germans. I'll nip down to library this afternoon and see if I can dig up some references.

</font>

[Kallimakhos]

Originally posted by tero:

Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

Here's a doable suggestion for compromise, which might silence most of the justified gripes: give Finns TRP's say at 90% reduction in summer 1944. This will make Russians attacking Finns a hell, unfair and frustrating close to boring, if the defender knows what he's doing, you moan? Probably so, but realistic and historical.

Any support for this idea?

Throw in the ability to buy them in all types of battles and I think that should be at least an approximation of a workable abstracted solution.

Mind you, I can not see why they should not come at a reduced price all the way from 1941.

Well, AFAIK the doctrine wasn't honed to perfection till the latter part of the war and cartography, one essential part, was far from home front standards during offence beyond old borders in 1941 and sometime after. To sell this Great Idea to BTS we need some people who unlike me actually know what they are speaking about, understand the doctrine and it's practice fully against a larger context and can offer good sources and data to back their claims and support credible modelling. Plus have the social skills to sell this idea. Tero, no disrespect hear, you may very well fill the first two requirements but I believe you yourself are the first one two admit that the history of clashes with Steve shows that your salesmanship skills have room for improvement .

If BTS answers, my guess is first response would be that saturating the map with TRP's is a option already available in scenarios, and pretty hard facts are needed to convinse that this would be very historical and realistic.

Even if BTS don't take the bait, I would still be interested in understanding the Finnish artillery doctrine better (more than just massing all the guns for a short devastating effect in a given location, which is "beyond the tactical scope of CM"), what were the actual response times and accuracy and how they were achieved in RL.

[Kallimakhos]

Kwazy, thanks for all the good news, one more thing: any hope of Finns vs Gerries? There are many interesting historical scenarios waiting for the opportunity.

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Just an update guys...

Apparently the stug dates were already fixed some time back for the next patch Any info on the IV's would be great though at this point.

Dan

About Pz-IV J...they never saw combat against Soviets, but if it's planned to include Finns vs. Germans in Lapland, then they are feasible.

Shipment days and modification done is in my earlier post . Source is same as before:

Finnish Armoured Vehicles 1917-1997,

ISBN 952-5026-09-4

Cheers,

M.S.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

...Even if BTS don't take the bait, I would still be interested in understanding the Finnish artillery doctrine better (more than just massing all the guns for a short devastating effect in a given location, which is "beyond the tactical scope of CM"), what were the actual response times and accuracy and how they were achieved in RL.

Me too please. Tero seems fairly adamant that there were significant differences, I'd be interested on his thoughts on what those differences were, and how they came about.

Edit: OK, I just read the posts on teh previous page. Seems to come down to:

1) 'more' through survey, and

2)intensive plotting of TRPs.

Were good quality maps a factor too - I would expect so if 1) & 2) are to be valid.

These sound like the kind of preparations you would expect to see for any anticipated major battle in static (or nearly static) positions, given enough time to prepare, and therefore not necessarily so specific to the überFinns. Other examples that spring to mind are Operation Bluecoat in July 1944 and Operation Plunder in March 1945.

Regards

JonS

[ October 16, 2002, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

...Even if BTS don't take the bait, I would still be interested in understanding the Finnish artillery doctrine better (more than just massing all the guns for a short devastating effect in a given location, which is "beyond the tactical scope of CM"), what were the actual response times and accuracy and how they were achieved in RL.

Me too please. Tero seems fairly adamant that there were significant differences, I'd be interested on his thoughts on what those differences were, and how they came about.

Regards

JonS</font>

[JonS]

Thanks Sardaukar. Yikes - its going to take a while to digest that lot!

[ October 16, 2002, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by Lerppu:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I need to go home and check since I have checked only briefly about captured Soviet tanks in Finnish use.

There should be:

- ISU-152 (one captured and lost 4 days later during summer 1944)

M.S.

Actually two were captured and put back to use, one was lost, but the other one survived, was used as a gun tractor after the war and is now in Parola painted with russian colours.</font>

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I stand corrected . So...I wonder if BTS is going to model all those "ones" and twos" for Finns...albeit it would be statistically feasible, since they were good proportion of Finnish armour . Not that many tanks to run around with.

Cheers,

M.S.[/QB]

The problem is that while that would work in scenarios giving the Finns access to SU-152's, KV-1E's and whatnot could seriously unbalance their amor capabilities (unless giving a huge rarity penalty, which would render them useless in QB's...).

[Kallimakhos]

Anyway and whatever, Finns shouldn't be expecting given victories on plate and better handicaps in any area or even realistic modelling in game terms. The many überweirdo's on the battlefield like the mentiones sniper/sharp shooter should be just forgotten and brushed of as the weirdos they are. That weirdo must be you!

The rep is there and it is up to Finnish gamers to keep it up, however unfair, unhistorical or biased the system may be . Don't whine, if you are a Finn, you are über- and it is your duty to show it on ladders, tournaments and other encounters. If you are given a single sharp shooter with a toothpick and one broken ski against an armoured enemy brigade lead by Fionn and then somefink, don't whine, just win. If the guy with the toothpick fails, it is not his fault, but yours, not living up to normal Finnish standards of überliedership!

[Tero]

Originally posted by Kallimakhos:

Anyway and whatever, Finns shouldn't be expecting given victories on plate and better handicaps in any area or even realistic modelling in game terms.

Of course not. But since BTF is a firm believer in historical accuracy that should be observed too.

The many überweirdo's on the battlefield like the mentiones sniper/sharp shooter should be just forgotten and brushed of as the weirdos they are. That weirdo must be you!

There are exceptions to the rule and there are rules to the exceptions. Sometimes going with the lowest common denominator for ALL eventualities just is not good enough.

The rep is there and it is up to Finnish gamers to keep it up, however unfair, unhistorical or biased the system may be . Don't whine, if you are a Finn, you are über- and it is your duty to show it on ladders, tournaments and other encounters. If you are given a single sharp shooter with a toothpick and one broken ski against an armoured enemy brigade lead by Fionn and then somefink, don't whine, just win. If the guy with the toothpick fails, it is not his fault, but yours, not living up to normal Finnish standards of überliedership!

After seeing too many FT's and R-35's as the most common AFV's in too many games a game which is marketed to be the most accurate one in the market better be just that.

[arzi]

What about pioneers? (Engineers) I cant find them from Finnish troops at all. In reality we didn't have to "lend and lease" those troops from Germans during assaults! So we have no Satchel charges at all, which were (in addition to cones and sticks) one noticeable at-method.

[Sardaukar]

I'd like to see rare tanks modelled and they should have severe rarity "penalty". It'd be good for scenario designers though.

More Finnish area CMBB errata:

Luftwaffe unit Kuhlmey "Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey" (arrived to Finland 16 June), essential air support in battle of Tali-Ihantala. FW-190Fs and JU-87 dive bombers. Thus, there should be German JU-87s available in June-July 1944 (no tank busters).

Tables of tank availability from "Finnish armoured vehicles" ISBN 952-5026-09-4 , page 191

(I'm not quoting all of that.. )

31.5.41 1.7.1942 1.7.43 1.6.44 12/44

T-26 m31 10 12 8 2 1

OT-26 2 2 1 1 1

T-37A 29 21 - - -

T-38/T38M2 13 12 19 19 3

Komsomolets 56 98 184 182 101

BT-7m35/37 53 23 23 - -

BT-42 - - 13 18 10

T-34m40/41 - 3 4 4 9

T-34/85 - - - - 9

T-50 - - 1 1 1

KV-1E m41 - - 1 1 1

KV-1 m42 - 1 1 1 1

Landsverk II - 6 6 6 6

Stug. III G - - - 30 46

Pz IV J - - - - 14

Cheers,

M.S.