Missing and incorrect information on Finland

[Tero]

Originally posted by illo:

Arzi, atleast 15 Stug IIIg late with saukopf saw action in finnish armed forces.

Thick concrete reinforcements at front hull and saukopf mantlet, DT machinegun, Storage box and Spare roadwheel racks.

One is displayed in Bovington with all the post war stuff still in place, painted in German colours.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Soddball:

I don't think that any of these people are actual forum members. I think Tero has created 45 extra usernames and passwords and argues with himself to give the impression that the Finnish contingent here is vibrant and full of wise things to tell people.

I hope you are not suggesting I am also buying all the copies of the game out over here....

[Tero]

Originally posted by Jussi Köhler:

Originally posted by Soddball:

I don't think that any of these people are actual forum members. I think Tero has created 45 extra usernames and passwords and argues with himself to give the impression that the Finnish contingent here is vibrant and full of wise things to tell people.

Hehe...

You are one PARANOID individual :eek: :eek: :eek:

Scary stuff...

I would not say he is paranoid. I think he just likes to think only the Anglo-American history writing is accurate and reliable and such a thing as Finnish history writing is folklore and old mens tales and not to be trusted.

Incidentaly, I just bought Glanz's book on the siege of Leningrad and according to that book the Finnish-Soviet border in the Isthmus did not exists prior to WWII. At least it is not mentioned once in the history of the town. And there is more along those lines.... :eek:

[ October 14, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: tero ]

[illo]

But having them around is a nice bonus, given the fact the Soviets might be fielding captured Panthers and who knows what ahistorical gamey stuff againts the überFinnish army... [smile]

Well we dont have em, do we?

What should be done?

1. Correct Stug weapons (add DT mg)

2. Decreace amount of Lahti Saloranta LMGs especially at late war and replace with DP27 LMGs. Ratio around 10/90 in 1944.

3. Correct Stug 3d models.

[illo]

This is impossible with the current situation. As much as I love Lahti AT rifles, they were not used in 1944.

I will get the exact figures if needed.

Can you post those figures?

I just read they were in use in finnish army up to 1988.

I found this nice site about finnish weapons while browsing net.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/weapons.html

Btw. Atleast my finnish forces have nice amount of Panzerfausts in summer 1944(Up to 4/team). Also Schrecks are there with 2 or 3 man teams, so I cant see that issue.

[Fishu]

Lahti's were used throughout the war, just not anymore as much in their intented roles as tanks got tougher.

Later in the war the use was against pillboxes, MG positions..

[Kwazydog]

Ill meantion about the MG guys, but it is unlikely at this point that the 3D model itself will be changed.

Dan

[ October 15, 2002, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Ill meantion about the MG guys, but it is unlikely at this point that the 3D model itself will be changed.

What about the fact the actual model (early instead of late early) and availability itself is all wrong for the Finnish Stug ?

[Tero]

Originally posted by illo:

This is impossible with the current situation. As much as I love Lahti AT rifles, they were not used in 1944.

I will get the exact figures if needed.

Can you post those figures?

I just read they were in use in finnish army up to 1988.

Lets not forget their main function during the summer of 1944 was AA. They did shoot down a fair number of those pesky farming machines with these things.

[ October 15, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Kwazydog]

Okay guys, the stug will now be the later model with the MG

If you could provide some references to the Pz-IV and dates of the stug usage Ill pass it on!

Dan

[ October 15, 2002, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

We are just looking into that Tero.

Dan

OK.

What were the criteria when the model in the game was picked ?

In the game the available Stug-III models are (from the spreadsheet)

Sturmgeschütz III G (früh)

Sturmgeschütz III G (früh mitt)

Sturmgeschütz III G (mittel)

Sturmgeschütz III G (spät mittel)

Sturmgeschütz III G (spät)

IMO the correct model for the Finns would be the early middle in terms of the MG.

The availability is simply all wrong. The Stugs were shipped in late 1943 so there is no way they would have been available for combat duties in January 1943.

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Ok, now while we are at it : how about that landsverk anti- issue? We discussed it at thread http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000969

The fact is that they were in frontline action, and in important role to fend off russian planes. And took out some ground obstacles too (bunkers). They were part of Finnish armored forces. Yes they were few in numbers but their role was documented and important, as discussed in that thread.

-Juha

[Tero]

Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

Ok, now while we are at it : how about that landsverk anti- issue? We discussed it at thread http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000969

The fact is that they were in frontline action, and in important role to fend off russian planes. And took out some ground obstacles too (bunkers). They were part of Finnish armored forces. Yes they were few in numbers but their role was documented and important, as discussed in that thread.

-Juha

Thank you for reminding me.

Lets not forget the Komsomolets gun tractor.

It's not fair to have the überFinns hump their guns around in difficult terrain when most of the others have a gun tractor or a HT at their disposal.

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Okay guys, the stug will now be the later model with the MG

If you could provide some references to the Pz-IV and dates of the stug usage Ill pass it on!

Dan

Sounds good.

There is a Finnish book by Esa Muikku and Jukka Purhonen "The Finnish armoured vehicles- Suomalaiset panssarivaunut 1918-1997".

It says:

page 20: "Thirty Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung G assault guns (Ps 531-1 to 30)of a planned total of 45,from contract #1189, arrived at Pori harbour in three shipments: 6 July (10), 13 August (8) and 3 September 1943 (12)."

and:

"They were produced at Alkett (Altmärkische Kettenwerk GmbH) in Berlin (10) and MIAG Mühlenbau und Industrie AG) in Braunschweig (19).

The hull of one assault gun was manufactured by MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg) to the PxKpfw III Ausf. M specification."

also same page:

"The first vehicles were issued to the Assault Gun battaillon on 2 September 1943. By June 1944, the vehicles were further modified by the Assault Gun Battaillon:

- original spaced side armour plates were removed

- German 7.92 mm MG 34 machine guns were replaced by Russian 7.62 mm DT machine guns

-spare road wheels were moved to racks on sides of fighting compartment

-a wooden equipment box was constructed on the engine deck"

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

[QB]The Finns will get Panzerfausts in the v1.01 patch. It was a bug. They actually DO get "assigned" them currently after June 44 but a recently discovered bug kept them from ever showing up./QB]

Will the Tank Hunter teams also get the fausts then?

Hope so..

[Sardaukar]

I need to go home and check since I have checked only briefly about captured Soviet tanks in Finnish use.

There should be:

- KV-1 m1942 (one captured and used)

- KV-1E (one captured and used)

- T-34 m40 and m41 (several)

- T-34/85 (several captured June-July 1944)

- ISU-152 (one captured and lost 4 days later during summer 1944)

- T-28 m1938 (almost all uparmoured to T-28E standards)

- T-28E (one or 2 captured)

I use "several" in Finnish sense . IIRC, 8 T-34-85s were captured. All those should be reasonably rare.

I don't even want to think about Stug III G modifications like:

-use of logs to uparmour "turret" side

- 15 mm plate added to hull front

- spare track parts fixed on glacis

- use of concrete to uparmour "turret" front

Probably unrealistic to expect to see these in game .

Cheers,

M.S.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I don't even want to think about Stug III G modifications like:

-use of logs to uparmour "turret" side

- 15 mm plate added to hull front

- spare track parts fixed on glacis

- use of concrete to uparmour "turret" front

Probably unrealistic to expect to see these in game .

Cheers,

M.S.

The concrete/Steel deflector modification of the cupola was introduced by ALKETT in Oct 1943 due to the success of ATR penetrations of the cupola. MIAG/MAN had followed suit by Feb 1944. MAN only built 142 PIII M chassis for StuG manufacture at MIAG and ALKETT.

The Germans began field mod concrete reinforcement of the forward 3cm armour slopes in late 43. This does not seem to be widely practiced or effective.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Bastables:

This does not seem to be widely practiced or effective.

It is quite interesting to note the Finnish tankers found the extra armour (concrete/log/extra armour in the lower hull = spare track holders in the front and between the tracks in the side) to be effective and consequently that ALL the Finnish Stugs were modified and were given the makeover.

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

If you could provide some references to the Pz-IV and dates of the stug usage Ill pass it on!

Dan

Same book that I quoted earlier says about Pz IV Ausf. J :

page 21: "...aid also resulted in the delivery of 15 PZ-IV Ausf. J tanks (Ps 221-1 to 15) in three batches on 24 August (8), 26 August (2) and 27 August (5)." Year is of course 1944.

page 93 picture text says:

"The hull side skirts were removed but the skirts around turret were retained". Finnish part of text says also that reason for removal was that skirts didn't stay attached very well.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Sardaukar]

By the way, if anyone wants my "Kuuterselkä" scenario that I just finished, email me to:

sardaukar67@yahoo.com.

It's vaguely related to Finnish Assault Gun Battaillon's counterattack 14.-15.6.1944 after Soviet had breached VT-line in Kuuterselkä.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Tero]

On arty FO delays:

The Finnish FO delays seem a bit overly slow compared to the German and Soviet ones, given the Finnish artillery doctrine.

Landline communications are admittedly more fragile but IMO not that much slower. There seems to be no compensation for the better site and target survey and other related things the Finnish arty did differently.

[Zakalwe]

On the subject of forward observers...

Maybe the delays are due to German infiltration of the Finnish artillery corps

In at least two scenarios (Retaking Viipuri and Lake Ladoga), the info screen brings up German Infantry Spotters, when you check on your Finnish spotters. Probably a remnant of the beta days...

Of course, even the improved CMBB artillery model does not accurately portray the Finnish artillery practises, particularly in the Karelian Isthmus battles of 1944. Using a lot of TRPs seems to be the best, if inelegant, solution.

Zak

[Tero]

Originally posted by Zakalwe:

Maybe the delays are due to German infiltration of the Finnish artillery corps

That might be it !

In at least two scenarios (Retaking Viipuri and Lake Ladoga), the info screen brings up German Infantry Spotters, when you check on your Finnish spotters. Probably a remnant of the beta days...

I hope it is just that...

Of course, even the improved CMBB artillery model does not accurately portray the Finnish artillery practises, particularly in the Karelian Isthmus battles of 1944. Using a lot of TRPs seems to be the best, if inelegant, solution.

Looking at Veitsen Terällä you can see there were over 40 TRP style spots in the gunnery overlay in the (IIRC) approx. 3km x 3km area in Ihantala alone. That is worth over 400 points at current rate. We are looking at spending well over 1000 pts on TRP's and trenches even before we get to buy the units....

Then there is the barrage drift if you target a out-of-LOS target which is not a TRP. I think in time that will become another major source gripes.

[ October 15, 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[boy_Recon]

may i direct your attention to the article 'The Axis Minor Allies' on www.combatmissionuk.co.uk

which contains some relevant information?

thank you.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by tero:

It is quite interesting to note the Finnish tankers found the extra armour (concrete/log/extra armour in the lower hull = spare track holders in the front and between the tracks in the side) to be effective and consequently that ALL the Finnish Stugs were modified and were given the makeover.[/QB]

EDIT Concrete reinforcements seem to have actually begun on pre 1942 F/8 StuGs, again it does not seem to be at all effective, or widely practiced. Nor was it an authorized field mod such as cutting up the schuerzen plate to use as spaced armour over the Panthers engine grilles (dec 1944). Or the erection of infantry "baskets" on the StuG engine deck and copula reinforcement (43).

The thing to note is that Waffenamt never considered it useful enough to make it an official modification.