Jump to content

Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.


Recommended Posts

Starting another game but need an answer to 2 questions I asked earlier....

a question about panicking troops...

How do you track wether a unit ever panics? Is this experience reduction applied only if the unit is paniced at the end of the battle or each and every time they happen to panic? If it is every time, any suggestions on tracking it? I guess you just watch the replay movie focusing on one unit.....but I'm not sure.

I've noticed something a bit odd when filling out the CORE sheet... Doesn't the "Green Motorized Inf. Co" at 343 points have FOUR squads? (fourth being 2 HMG's and a Section HQ) In the core sheet there is room for three squads and I understood that the bottom section above the armor was reserved for scrounged units. Am I missing something? Supersolo said he just added it into the bottom which sounds right. But what seems strange is that other people havent noticed this since you need to record your core force into the sheet. (at which pointI assumed everyone would be wondering what is up)

Sorry for re-posting these questions...just looking to start another game with the new rules and want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Thanks,

Scooby!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 296
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

All this bruhaha about how to regulate the size of the battle, I don't get it.

Say you got a core of 563 and you got 600 points of aux, a total of 1163 for your next assault. Is just dividing 1163 by 1.72 (=676.2) and then choosing a 700 point battle too easy? I've done so for the last few days and it has worked very well.

But maybe I'm just not good enough... ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Sten:

All this bruhaha about how to regulate the size of the battle, I don't get it.

Say you got a core of 563 and you got 600 points of aux, a total of 1163 for your next assault. Is just dividing 1163 by 1.72 (=676.2) and then choosing a 700 point battle too easy? I've done so for the last few days and it has worked very well.

But maybe I'm just not good enough... ;)

Hi Sten,

That was 80% of the solution... Casualties had to be accounted for as well or most players would have left the campaign before the end of 41 ;)

The rule modifications has been minimal - see post above... and thoroughly tested... works well from Conscript to Elite, for all months, and for the rest of the campaign till 45 as well.

Biltong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, ok.

Another thought (two in one day, new record)crossed my mind.

These rules can yield VERY varied battles, mainly du to the look of the map. Some battles are utterly impossible and others are like a shooting range.

Three battles ago I got a lot of armor, mainly light stuff, but the Soviets had armor as well. Not a problem in itself, but I got a Flat, open map. Within two turns (when I retreated) 9 of my 11 tanks/AFVs were burning due to the Soviets 21 tanks (incl. 3 T-34). I was utterly chanceless.

My last battle OTOH was a Meeting Engagement against Soviet unfit Infantry. Small hills, light tree coverage. My tanks contained the AI to the one clump of trees available to him.

Arty-time!

One spotter got 230 kills, the other got 65.

Final casualties was 413 for him and 14 for me. In an 800p battle!

The first example makes me wonder if the 'Flat' map really should be an option. If you choose the setting 'Random' for map type, you can get anything BUT flat since v1.01.

The second example makes me wonder if it's not a bit unfair that my core gets 4130/800~5 experience points for basically lying on a shooting range watching 400 guys 500 meters away get blown to bits. I have had other fights, really tense ones, with heavy losses to both sides, that didn't yield nearly as much.

Maybe total combat exp shouldn't be (Allied Cas/purchase points) but ((Allied cas + Axis cas)/Purchase points - 1)?

That wouldn't yield a higher overall score, but would reward the close fights more than the really uneven ones.

What do you say?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Scooby2003:

Starting another game but need an answer to 2 questions I asked earlier....

a question about panicking troops...

How do you track wether a unit ever panics? Is this experience reduction applied only if the unit is paniced at the end of the battle or each and every time they happen to panic? If it is every time, any suggestions on tracking it? I guess you just watch the replay movie focusing on one unit.....but I'm not sure.

I've noticed something a bit odd when filling out the CORE sheet... Doesn't the "Green Motorized Inf. Co" at 343 points have FOUR squads? (fourth being 2 HMG's and a Section HQ) In the core sheet there is room for three squads and I understood that the bottom section above the armor was reserved for scrounged units. Am I missing something? Supersolo said he just added it into the bottom which sounds right. But what seems strange is that other people havent noticed this since you need to record your core force into the sheet. (at which pointI assumed everyone would be wondering what is up)

Sorry for re-posting these questions...just looking to start another game with the new rules and want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Thanks,

Scooby!

Hiya Scooby - Welcome back smile.gif

Sorry that I missed the questions during last weeks mad rush...

I've 'fixed' both questions already to prevent them coming up again. LOL

1) On the 'Unit Info Panel' on the game interface there's a little red button that comes on only if your guys are really panicked for good. Once on, it stays on for the duration of the game (AFAIK).

Panic/Broken column heading changed to “Rattled – Note 5”

Note 5: Red 'Rattled' Button activated on the 'Unit Info Panel' in the game. See 11 (p. 24) CMBB manual.

2)The empty space is there for you to use as you see fit... Extra Core/Scrounged, shopping list whatever... I left it there as an indication...

Added this line to Note 7 in the Rules:

"Note down the units in your Core Force and Scrounged units (if any) on the Core Sheet. You might have to use the empty lines (or insert more lines) when the composition of your Core Force changes."

Hope these do the trick

Biltong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Three battles ago I got a lot of armor, mainly light stuff, but the Soviets had armor as well. Not a problem in itself, but I got a Flat, open map. Within two turns (when I retreated) 9 of my 11 tanks/AFVs were burning due to the Soviets 21 tanks (incl. 3 T-34). I was utterly chanceless.
I had a very similar thing happen to me. I won't play a Flat map if it comes up in the parameters. I think they are nearly a geographic impossibility (other than in the DisneyLand parking lot) as well as being impossible to play on. At a minimum I make it Gentle Slopes, which is still difficult to find cover on some times. That should suit for steppe just as well.

Really makes you see how much the geography could change the outcome of a battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to agree. Few well placed AT guns and most AFVs/tanks are history. Infantry manouevre (that doesn't look right?) is all but useless too. Few well placed Maxims and you can forget it. IMHO it would actually be worth writing the flat map out of the parameter roll up. My last was flat and treeless. I had a look out of interest and it looked like a pool table! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When might more maps become available? I fought a meeting engagement on Manstein's Fork and it was fantastic. Keep up the good work guys, these campaign rules are great fun and have added an entirely new dimension to Combat Mission. I must say that the gentlement at BFC missed the boat on this aspect of the game. I know..I know, I just gave that dead horse another whack, but hey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Sten:

Oh, ok.

Another thought (two in one day, new record)crossed my mind....

The first example makes me wonder if the 'Flat' map really should be an option.

Fixed - see post further down.

The second example makes me wonder if it's not a bit unfair that my core gets 4130/800~5 experience points for basically lying on a shooting range watching 400 guys 500 meters away get blown to bits. I have had other fights, really tense ones, with heavy losses to both sides, that didn't yield nearly as much.

Maybe total combat exp shouldn't be (Allied Cas/purchase points) but ((Allied cas + Axis cas)/Purchase points - 1)?

That wouldn't yield a higher overall score, but would reward the close fights more than the really uneven ones.

Great minds - we've been discussing this... and your formula looks interesting, but not tonight! Just been testing Casualties and Player experience for 3? days and I'd prefer to give the Excel sheets a miss for a couple of days :rolleyes: However - your suggestions is number 2 on the new to do list tongue.gif

Keep 'em coming... You're helping to make BCR better for everybody smile.gif

Biltong

[ December 03, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Apache:

I tend to agree. Few well placed AT guns and most AFVs/tanks are history. Infantry manouevre (that doesn't look right?) is all but useless too. Few well placed Maxims and you can forget it. IMHO it would actually be worth writing the flat map out of the parameter roll up. My last was flat and treeless. I had a look out of interest and it looked like a pool table! :D

Give Manstein22 & the other map designers a bit more time and you'll never have to play 'flat maps' again... Have you tried the map add-on Apache? What about some feedback?

Biltong

G** Just rolled up a few of them - 'pool tables' the whole lot!! Not a single dip! Fixed!! 10% chance to hit one in July - Aug only. :mad:

45 HILLINESS

< 2 Flat June +1; Sept - Oct +1; Nov - Dec +2

2-5 Gentle Slopes

6-7 Small Hills

8-9 Modest Hills

9 > Large Hills

[ December 02, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for the late response, been a busy weekend/start of week for me.

Originally posted by Biltong:

Super - What about writing up a detailed doc on how to play using the editor and publish it on the sites?

Oh, I don't think that would be a good idea, me and writing (in english no less!) doesn't go well togeather... You should see how I've butchered your rules-sheet just for my "personal" rules!

Originally posted by Biltong:

BTW - have you tried using one of Manstein22's maps?

Oh - and what does 'imnsho' mean? In my ...? ...? humble opinion? I could think of some words to put in there, but I'm sure they're wrong :D

Not yet, I have only started one battle so far since Friday. And haven't there been only one map released so far?

"imnsho" ment "in my not so humble opinion". smile.gif It's great to be able to keep individual experience for the squads and add aircrafts. I'm been toying with the idea of HQ's getting better bonuses as they get more experienced, but nothing solid yet... and my guys are still green, no hurry smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Oh, I don't think that would be a good idea, me and writing (in english no less!) ...

Just trying my luck :rolleyes:

... And haven't there been only one map released so far?...

No - each map pack comes with a number of maps and each one has 7 versions!!

Axis Assault; Attack; Probe; Allied Assault; Attack; Probe and a Meeting Engagement...

Go and get them!

Just got the first feedback above or below?

... I'm been toying with the idea of HQ's getting better bonuses as they get more experienced, but nothing solid yet...

Sounds interesting...? Let us know...

and my guys are still green, no hurry

Just been testing the new Player Exp modifiers... they might give you a hand ;)

[ December 07, 2002, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Uber Spurhund:

[QB]When might more maps become available? I fought a meeting engagement on Manstein's Fork and it was fantastic. Keep up the good work guys, these campaign rules are great fun and have added an entirely new dimension to Combat Mission....QB]

We aim to bring out one map pack every week - each one to contain a number of maps - each map having 7 versions - see post above. And Thanx for the feedback - Manstein22 will be 'most pleased' :D

Now if I can just get off this board I'll go and start on the next one... Got a beautifull map from Pete Wenman - NOT FLAT AT ALL - Max ;)

Super/Apache/Max - take over - I'm outa here.. tongue.gif

[ December 07, 2002, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the hell - one last thing:

For those of you starting new battles with the new Force Rule (somewhere above?)

You can use this as well ;)

36 HANDICAP

< 2 None

2-3 Allied +10%

4-7 Allied +25%

8 Allied +50%

9 Allied +75%

9 > Allied +100%

"June -4; July -3; Aug -2; Sept -1

October (4th week) to Dec +4

Player Experience: Conscript -4; Green -2;

Player Experience: Veteran +2; Crack +4;

Elite +6

See Note 12 - Player Experience

Note 12 - Player Experience

"

In Arty/Air (31) and especially in Handicap (36) your Player Experience act as a modifier.

Be very careful when giving yourself a rating. If you overestimate yourself you will have a very hard time!

CONSCRIPT - You have less than 6 months of war-gaming experience.

GREEN - You have played CMBO/CMBB for 2 years and have some other war-game experience as well.

REGULAR - I class myself in this category: 30 years war-gaming on and off with 5 years intensive war-gaming. CMBO/CMBB from the 1st CMBO demo ;) 5+ PBEM's per night.

VETERAN - You win 80% of your TCPIP/PBEM games

CRACK - Maybe a 100 out of the thousands in the CMBB community?

ELITE - Only two or 3 that I know of…

If you win more than 6 battles in a row – increase your Player Experience by one notch. But beware of the Winter!!

Off to bed - G'night smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm confused. What use is the big arty/big arty roll.

It seems to serve onyl to generate bigger battles while lessening your forces.

You have to choose from what the computer picked in your auto generated auxillery forces, correct?

And the computer never picks big arty or big air.

Example:

I roll 700 points of arty. I generate the auxillery QB to see what get. It chooses a 75mm spotter and an 105 spotter. So, during the real battle, all I can choose are those 2 spotters.

Thats only ~170 points. But battle size is increased by 700!

Am I missing something?

[ December 03, 2002, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

86smopium said:

I roll 700 points of arty. I generate the auxillery QB to see what get. It chooses a 75mm spotter and an 105 spotter. So, during the real battle, all I can choose are those 2 spotters.

Thats only ~170 points. But battle size is increased by 700!

Am I missing something?

Yes, I think you are. smile.gif

Under note 7 of the rules it says:

If you have points left in an Auxiliary Category after buying all the units you picked from those generated by the Auto QB (47) you can choose what you want to buy from the normal QB unit list until you have used up the Purchase Points for that Category.

So just spend the rest of your 700 points any way you see fit. But you have to stay with the same division.

But since I am a genuine Gamey Bastard I would reroll that battle. 700 points of arty makes the battle nigh-impossible. I reroll if the arty is >50% of the aux points. But then again, I am a GB. smile.gif

[ December 03, 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Sten ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

86 writes:

"I'm confused. What use is the big arty/big arty roll.

It seems to serve onyl to generate bigger battles while lessening your forces.

You have to choose from what the computer picked in your auto generated auxillery forces, correct?

And the computer never picks big arty or big air.

Example:

I roll 700 points of arty. I generate the auxillery QB to see what get. It chooses a 75mm spotter and an 105 spotter. So, during the real battle, all I can choose are those 2 spotters.

Thats only ~170 points. But battle size is increased by 700!

Am I missing something?”

Yep – Rule 7:

“If you have points left in an Auxiliary Category after buying all the units you picked from those generated by the Auto QB (47) you can choose what you want to buy from the normal QB unit list (in that category only) until you have used up the Purchase Points for that Category.

However - you are not allowed to change Nation or Division… If you have points for a category and there are no units on offer for that Nat/Div - tough luck - you lose the points.”

Apache writes:

I'm also not sure about the casualty thing. I noted that if I switched to allow Soviet purchase by human and I entered a 1000 point force at 50% casualties, it allows you to spend 2,000 (of which 50% will be deleted). I would have thought it would set you to buy 1000 and cut them by half?

It would be logical, but I’m sure BFC had a good reason to do it this way – Search the posts/manual – More than likely it was discussed somewhere.

"Should we therefore use any kind of modifier to take account of our own casualties? It seems to be only us and not the AI that will get losses to forces."

The short answer: Yes – If we don’t most players will leave the campaign once the Nov/Dec Casualties start taking their toll.

Ok, let me set out my reasons for using Max’s suggestion (and not the 100 others ;) .

Battle Type, Player Experience, Handicap, Casualties and your Force

New Rule/formula:

Note 11 - Provisional Force Size

CMBB automatically gives the side that Assaults; Attacks or Probes extra Purchase Points at the following ratio: Battle Type Multiplier: Assault: 1.72; Attack: 1.5 and Probe 1.4

If you (the Axis) are doing one of the above you must also get extra Purchase Points or (the way we do it here) the Allieds must be given less (reduced Force Size).

Also: Axis Casualties must be catered for since the Axis (player) side is heavily penalized by CMBB.

Provisional Force Size = Total Purchase Points * (1 - Casualty Percentage / Battle Type Multiplier) Fill this in the box provided on the Parameter Sheet

Example 1: Purchase Points: 1000; Casualty: 20%; Battle Type: AssaultProvisional Force Size = 1000 * (1 - .2) / 1.72 = 465 (round up)

Note: The Battle Type only has an influence if the Axis Attack/Assault/Probe – in all other cases it is: 1. And: Casualty percentage is made into decimals, E.g.: 20% becomes .2 (see example above)

------------------------------------------

Let me explain it a bit in detail:

1. The new formula for managing player Force Size takes into account:

· Battle Type: E.g.: Assault give you 1.72 times your Purchase Points etc

· Casualties – E.g.: Casualties of 40% or more (esp. when combined with a bad Handicap) would chase most players out of the campaign.

The formula counteracts both modifiers above from decimating your force/Purchase Points to such a degree that you are unable to have a reasonable battle.

2. Most suggestions on this topic wanted Player Experience to be included in the formula, but this is sufficiently handled by Handicap. Handicap also takes care of the historical aspect such as: time of year and Allied numerical superiority when launching a mayor counter offensive.

Or, put differently:

Battle Type

Most of you will know this, but a side that Assaults gets 1.72 times it’s Force Size, an Attacker (1.5 x); a Prober (1.4 x). Without the new formula players would have to Assault with the Purchase Points they rolled up and never get the extra (1.72 x) points that they need to carry out a successful Assault. The new formula takes care of this problem directly.

Player Experience

This has a mayor influence on Handicap – or vice versa: Handicap is the most important way that Player Experience is brought into the game.

A Conscript Player will have an easy go of it: 1% Handicap in June up to a worst case of: 32% in December, while a Crack will face from 38% in June to 95% Handicap in December. See Chart below.

Casualties

The effect of Casualties on the number of men that you deploy (i.e.: your Purchase Points) effectively falls away – NOTE: This aspect is taken care of by Handicap!

BUT a very important aspect of Casualties: The disorganization of your force is kept…

You still have enough points to buy/fight with (depending on Handicap), but your force could become very disjointed: Half squads, missing Core Tanks etc… Very realistic when it comes to the –30 degree temperatures and the counter offensives the Axis endured in the winter.

Handicap

· Handicap becomes the main vehicle to bring Player Experience into play.

· Indirectly Handicap also represents casualties – The men & vehicles the Axis lost due to the winter cold and Allied counter offensives is ‘taken out’ by Handicap. This is done ‘indirectly’ since the Allieds are simply given more purchase points instead of reducing the Axis Purchase Points.

Av Handicap % on 20 rolls

//------June------//------Sept-------//-------Dec

Con--Reg--Crack//Con--Reg--Crack//Con--Reg--Crack

-1---9.25---38.5//6.25-31.5--52.5-//32.5-67.5---95

I hope this clears it up/

When I first looked at Max’s suggestion I thought it still needed Player Exp modification on the Casualty side of things, but then I started testing it and the results are spot on. Since then it has been tested over and over (for various other reasons as well) and it works and it is Simple – the ideal smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMPORTANT UPDATE

There is a bug in CMBBv1.01 regarding the ammo levels.

All AI-bought units will start with full ammo regardless of what setting you chose in the QB setup.

Some measures will have to be taken to compensate for this.

One idea might be to reduce the AI's handicap by one notch if ammo is between 60 and 40% and by two notches below that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Biltong:

What a great idea this "expansion" of the game is!

Now, would someone do me the favor of explaining in simple 'stupid' terms how to set it up? I've downloaded all the zip files, but I don't know if I need all of them to play, and I don't know where to put these new "folders" anyway.

Someone help a computer rookie!!

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi. Would you do the me the favor of explaining where I

> should put the zip files to play? I really like your

> concept on this and am dying to see what you did.

>

> Thanks, jesse

Hi Jesse,

Not sure which zips you’re talking about - I assume the maps?

See the Map Intro below:

V1.3 Last updated 3 Dec 2002

It is now quite possible to play the whole of BCR on pre-made maps.

In other words: a massive Operation covering the whole CMBB theatre of operations from 41 to 45….

HOW

There are no modifications to BCR (yet)… Depending on Year, Size, Battle & Map Type etc., you will simply download the relevant Map Pack on the Map List…

Create a folder called BCR Maps under CMBB and save the maps there. If you’ve already played the one on the sheet, you simply take the next one. If there’s no ‘next one’ yet, you generate as before.

When you generate the Real Battle and you come to the 3rd (Map Type) screen of the QB generator you ignore the parameters there and use the ‘Import Map’ option to load the map file out of the ‘BCR Maps’ folder… and that is that! Cary on as per normal with the BCR – Buy your force and play the battle... Voila!!

Once you’ve finished the battle – Put a ‘Y’ in the ‘Played’ box to prevent you accidentally playing the same map again.

Biltong

[ December 07, 2002, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Sten:

IMPORTANT UPDATE

There is a bug in CMBBv1.01 regarding the ammo levels.

All AI-bought units will start with full ammo regardless of what setting you chose in the QB setup.

Some measures will have to be taken to compensate for this.

One idea might be to reduce the AI's handicap by one notch if ammo is between 60 and 40% and by two notches below that.

Stalin's nephew is the opposing CO - all the ammo in Russia! :D

BFC knows about it - Patience

With all the BCR modifications/requests/investigations/extras etc that still need to be done BFC's bound to get there first... Have a look at the update doc on Friday and you'll understand ;)

Biltong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

I've had no feedback on the new "Auto Favor" sheet I sent to the testing group... I suppose it works then ? tongue.gif

Must be ;) Haven't had time yet... could anyone help? Please.. Pretty please... I didn't say your name, Max - I hope you noticed that...
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...